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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios....
    #7576498 - 10/30/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I will be starting my first bulk grow soon hopefully and I have some questions about RATIOS.

1) I want to use a coir/worm casting bulk and am unsure about what the general consensus on ratios is here, or whether a tea should be used or what... My first issue here is that I have read that the advantage of castings is that they are high in N, but somewhere read (RR, I think) I should avoid burning the mycelium w/ nitrogen, because that would be bad.... So, what to do?

2)I have also read that coir is low in calcium. I have some oystershell lime that "contains up to 36% calcium plus a natural balance of other nutrients and micro-nutrients. Raises pH in acidic soils and corrects calcium deficiencies, too!" But the obvious question here is how much can I safely use to raise calcium, and raise pH levels without killing mycelium. Is there such a thing as too much calcium?


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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay Flag
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: thedefone]
    #7576551 - 10/30/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

1. any ratio you want. don't worry about nitrogen. neither coir
nor worm castings have enough nitrogen in them to harm anything.
don't use a bunch of straight chicken manure, that's what is meant
by that.

2. oyster shells will not raise your pH much if at all in this hobby.
they're for use in long-term applications like gardening.
your substrate will be in the trash or out back in a month or so,
so oyster shells are about worthless in that respect.
don't buy into the rumors you are reading, and stop worrying
about having to supplement things.
coir is great as is, even better if mixed with worm castings.
I would use the worm castings in a 10-30% ratio myself. but you
can pick any ratio you want. it's much easier than you think it
might be.


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: monstermitch]
    #7576611 - 10/30/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Another question I have about this Coir bulk operations is whether or not using a 60/40 verm/coir casing is appropriate, considering the bulk substrate will be primarily coir. I would like to use 50/50 just to say I tried it, but will 60/40 work fine?

Oh, What I have is Oyster shell LIME, does that change the "raising only over long-term" factor at all?

Thanks for the input.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay Flag
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: thedefone]
    #7576707 - 10/30/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

to raise the ph you want hydrated lime.
I can't speak for other products.

and no, it would not be appropriate to "case" with more coir.
you would just be adding more substrate.
casing is made from peat, not coir.

if you want to add a casing layer, you'll need peat/verm.
the coir is for the substrate.


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1,265
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: monstermitch]
    #7576928 - 10/30/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

more specifically, the casing layer is supposed to be non-nutritious. I also only pH balance my casing layer and not my substrate...our mycelium like slightly acidic food-sources (as do most other living creatures/plants) The reason we raise the pH to 7.2(-ish) in the casing layer is to make it even more hostile an environment for any contaminates that may land on it in the fruiting chamber.

Just like our mycelium strains, your average contaminate spore needs three things to germinate and begin colonizing.

1. relatively stagnant air with elevated CO2 levels.
2. relative humidity at or near 95-100%
3. a slightly acidic, nutritious food source.

---
We can't do anything about the relative humidity requirement as our mycelium needs that as well. However, we can create a very thin, 1/2" or so layer of a non-nutritious contaminate barrier that we've raised the pH on such that when that wayward trichoderma spore lands and germinates (from the humidity) it will find nothing to eat and a stressful, alkaline environment that is constantly blasted with fresh-air to prevent any stagnant pockets from forming.

As a bonus for going through all this trouble to prevent contamination we also get a nice "humidity-blanket" for our substrate to act as a buffer against short-term changes/drops in RH in our fruiting chamber so that the colonized substrate below stays at a constant 100% RH.


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:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: mycocurious]
    #7577198 - 10/30/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

we also get a nice "humidity-blanket" for our substrate to act as a buffer against short-term changes/drops in RH in our fruiting chamber so that the colonized substrate below stays at a constant 100% RH.




So, that being said, is the reason that we keep the FC in the 85-95% range because due to the casing maintaining 100% humidity for the substrate, keeping the FC's humidity high would only foster contaminant growth?

Quote:

the casing layer is supposed to be non-nutritious




I currently have 3, 60/40 verm/coir casings in my FC thriving. I will case the bulk with the 50/50 peat/verm I have standing by, but if casing is to be non-nutritious, why would you case anything with 60/40 mix? Does that go back to "coir has no nutes" mindset? Should I not case 60/40, period?

Also, what do you do to pH balance your casing?

Thanks for the help... it really is greatly appreciated.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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OfflineBigDD
Stranger ThanMost
Male


Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 42
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: thedefone]
    #7581589 - 10/31/07 04:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Correct. The current consensus is that a coir/verm mix acts as a substrate due to the slight nutritional value in the coir. The peat/verm mix acts as a casing due to the lack of nutritional value. The percentages of each mix is not the direct determining factor in whether it acts as a substrate or a casing.

I have read that to Ph balance the 50/50 peat/verm mix add up to 5% by volume of hydrated lime. However.....I'm not sure if thats is to be added as 5% of the total volume of the mix or 5% of only the peat volume...(can someone clarify here) . You can get Hi-Yield horticultural hydrated lime at your local nursery.


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1,265
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: thedefone]
    #7581997 - 10/31/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
Quote:

we also get a nice "humidity-blanket" for our substrate to act as a buffer against short-term changes/drops in RH in our fruiting chamber so that the colonized substrate below stays at a constant 100% RH.




So, that being said, is the reason that we keep the FC in the 85-95% range because due to the casing maintaining 100% humidity for the substrate, keeping the FC's humidity high would only foster contaminant growth?




If you can manage to keep your fruiting chamber higher than 95% while still having a constant exchange of fresh air then you've got one up on me. The more air you move through your fruiting chamber the better as stagnant air _does_ foster contaminates so it really becomes a trade-off between how high you raise your FAE without allowing your RH to drop too low. In my humble experience, I'd rather have a steady constant flow of air over my trays with the RH between 85-95% than have 95-100% RH and very little fresh air flowing through my chambers.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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InvisibleThis guy
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 183
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: mycocurious]
    #7582146 - 10/31/07 07:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i believe one of the big dogs suggests 1 teaspoon of hydrated lime per 1 cup of peat moss.

but make sure you have some way of testing the pH levels as hydrated lime is pretty strong. Sometimes i have to compensate and add more peat moss to balance it out.

i use hi yield hydrated lime. any hydroponics/garden shop should carry it.


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
Male User Gallery


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1,265
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: thedefone]
    #7582206 - 10/31/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thedefone said:
Quote:

the casing layer is supposed to be non-nutritious




I currently have 3, 60/40 verm/coir casings in my FC thriving. I will case the bulk with the 50/50 peat/verm I have standing by, but if casing is to be non-nutritious, why would you case anything with 60/40 mix? Does that go back to "coir has no nutes" mindset? Should I not case 60/40, period?

Also, what do you do to pH balance your casing?

Thanks for the help... it really is greatly appreciated.




If you search two or three years back you'll find tons of posts telling people coir was non-nutritious and only served as a casing layer. Now we know it is indeed nutritious, it's not as good as a compost or manure substrate but it certainly contains enough nutrients to have a good, solid couple flushes.

The reason we add vermiculite, regardless if it's used as a substrate or a casing layer is to bolster it's ability to store water although I typically only use about 15-25% vermiculite by volume in my coffee/coir substrates.

Personally, I use Jiffy Mix (Seed Starting Mix) which is a ready made vermeiculite/peat moss blend that is pH balanced to about 6.8 usually. From there I had a tablespoon or two per gallon or so of jiffy mix...but rather than sticking to some ratio of lime to casing material, I would recommend investing in a good KELWAY pH tester...



--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblethedefone
deus ex machina

Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
Re: Bulk Coir, casting & lime ratios.... [Re: mycocurious]
    #7621440 - 11/11/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

. . . R E S U R R E C T I O N . . .

I am resurrecting this thread so that I can ask one or two more questions in the same vein, without starting a new thread.

Having read back over this, I understand now that to PH balance a casing layer is more to ward off contaminates, and not as much as any sort of benefit to the mycelium. I am also to understand that using 60/40 Verm/Coir is unadvised (especially when using coir as a bulk sub) as it will provide more nutrition to myc, thus incorporating more sub into the mix.

So...

1) What can I use as a pH neutral casing "stabilizer"? Would crushed hydroton substitute crushed oyster shells to make casing more resistant to damage?

2) So, if the 50/50 peat/verm is non-nutritious will the myc colonize it like id did with my 60/40 verm/coir, casing PF subs? It must, no?

I am just a little confused here.


--------------------


I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.


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