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Invisiblekane.ish
the ish
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Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 60
thoughts on cycling humidity
    #7574776 - 10/29/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm curious as to how cycling humidity during pre-pinning of a casing (50/50+) will affect pinset. I read somewhere on the forums (sry no link) that some evaporation encourages the formation of pins/primordia. Would keeping the rH in the FC at a lower level (say 50%) and misting more often to keep the casing moist encourage a better pinset? FAE after every misting and in general once about every 2 hours.

Current misting technique: Filling the FC with a dense but very fine mist piped in from an ultrasonic for about 10-15 minutes, then fanning and returning ultrasonic to low setting to maintain normal humidity.

I've been keeping my rH a bit lower than it should be, but have been misting more to compensate, keeping the casing layer pretty moist. Unfortunately my digital hydro broke so there is not real way to show some definite numbers, but without misting the casing does tend to dry out in a hurry, so I'd imagine that rH is pretty far below the "recommended" level.

What are your thoughts?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: kane.ish]
    #7574807 - 10/29/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sure it will work. Increasing air exchange to the point your humidity is dropping a bit is great. When you mist to make up the difference, the humidity right at the surface is still near 100%, thus great for primordia formation.
RR


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Invisiblekane.ish
the ish
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Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 60
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7574825 - 10/29/07 10:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

awesome, thanks RR!


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: kane.ish]
    #7575457 - 10/30/07 05:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I've got con fussed again, lately have heard people saying you should stop misting when primordia forms then start misting ones pins are set, and that misting can cause aborts.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7575601 - 10/30/07 07:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Misting doesn't cause aborts. Leaving the primordia/pins wet after misting does. By increasing air exchange, the pins dry off, therefore no damage from misting.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7575606 - 10/30/07 07:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ah cool, so u can mist before fanning the FC then and that will dry the pins off.

Thanxs


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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Invisiblekane.ish
the ish
Male

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 60
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7575847 - 10/30/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Misting doesn't cause aborts. Leaving the primordia/pins wet after misting does. By increasing air exchange, the pins dry off, therefore no damage from misting.
RR




Because the ultrasonic mist is more of a fog than a mist, it rehydrates the casing but doesn't leave appreciable amounts of water droplets. Then fanning clears the said fog and any little water droplets that do accumulate. I mist all through pinning and have not gotten many aborts.

I think the key is how fine the mist is.


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my cat knows my password, so it can be assumed that any and all posts I make are the result of the cat using the computer.

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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7575893 - 10/30/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Misting doesn't cause aborts. Leaving the primordia/pins wet after misting does. By increasing air exchange, the pins dry off, therefore no damage from misting.
RR




+1

I always recommend that if you're going to do a manual misting to make sure that you...
  • use an ultra-fine mist like that found in a pressurized (pump) sprayer and not your standard "spray bottle" because the water droplets will be too large.
  • always fan heavily _after_ misting to help push any water droplets that may have gathered on the pins during the misting...


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: kane.ish]
    #7575912 - 10/30/07 10:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

kane.ish said:
Because the ultrasonic mist is more of a fog than a mist, it rehydrates the casing but doesn't leave appreciable amounts of water droplets.





The fog created by an ultrasonic fogger is often called a "dry fog" because the water vapor is so fine that it doesn't make it's surroundings wet until/unless condensation happens.

Incidentally, the machine used to treat large spaces for black mold contamination is essentially an ultrasonic fogger built into a backpack like unit which has an attached gun-like hose that directs the fog. The fogger will aspirate any solution that is water soluble so they add a special fungicide to the water and then just blow the solution all through your attic/etc. I can permeate ever surface of the insulation and wood without leaving it water-logged or even wet at all.

Additionally, in hydroponic gardening, ultrasonic foggers are often used to create "cloning machines" where the newly forming root-systems are fed entirely through the (highly oxygenated) mist created by ultrasonic foggers that have liquid nutrients added to their reservoirs.

Always thought that those were cool little bits of random trivia...


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblekane.ish
the ish
Male

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 60
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: mycocurious]
    #7575955 - 10/30/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

interesting stuff about the ultrasonic fog. would that be aeroponics you're talking about? I'm still pretty new around here, but always willing to learn.

I have noticed that unless I get the FC completely saturated with mist, it really doesn't do too much to help moisture in the casing. Leaving it on full blast for 10-15 minutes its like a cloud in there, can barely see through it. My guess is that it starts to "rain" and the mist starts to condense once the air in the FC gets saturated. If I leave it on for even longer (like 20 min) I'll get a few small droplets on the casing surface and/or pins.


--------------------
my cat knows my password, so it can be assumed that any and all posts I make are the result of the cat using the computer.

:tripping:


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Registered: 02/09/07
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: kane.ish]
    #7576266 - 10/30/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

for a greenhouse you need to supply two sources of humidity. A "coolmist" type that runs pretty much 24/7 (depending on how much FAE you supply) and an ultrasonic fogger which runs in short bursts.

check out my the link for the bulk humidifier below and you'll see how I use an aquarium pump and an air-stone for the "coolmist" to provide a constant supply of low-volume RH side of things as well as a powerful ultrasonic fogger that works in bursts to "beef up" the humidity ever hour or so for about 8 minutes - which is completely dependent on how much FAE you have and the temperatures of your environment.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Offlineurayasan
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Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 111
Last seen: 16 years, 27 days
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: mycocurious]
    #7576513 - 10/30/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mycocurious said:
for a greenhouse you need to supply two sources of humidity. A "coolmist" type that runs pretty much 24/7 (depending on how much FAE you supply) and an ultrasonic fogger which runs in short bursts.




I'd like to take the opportunity to get this straight, cause it kind of confuses me. It seems like quite often I hear people doing both of these things, running a coolmist 24/7 and using an ultrasonic in tandem, and this makes no sense to me. If I run a coolmist anywhere near that much I end up with a flash flood in whatever area it's being used in. Additionally, why do people use ultrasonics along with them? A single impeller running on a generous timer keeps most anything at 100% in my experience, even with a greenhouse wide open.

Would someone elaborate? Thanks!


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1,265
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: urayasan]
    #7576834 - 10/30/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ok, to use the proper terms (my fault) we're talking about an impeller (cool mist) styled humidifier and an ultrasonic humidifier.

Typically they're used in conjuction because an impeller styled humidifier is generally used as the source of fresh-air exchange and can only humidify the air so much as it's blowing out a constant stream of moist air.

Ultrasonic humidifiers use a piezo-electric transducer to create a high frequency mechanical oscillation in a body of water. The water tries to follow the high frequency oscillation but cannot because of its comparative weight and mass inertia. Thus, a momentary vacuum is created on the negative oscillation, causing the water to cavitate into vapor. The transducer follows this with a positive oscillation that creates high pressure compression waves on the water's surface, releasing tiny vapor molecules of water into the air. This is an extremely fine mist, about one micron in diameter, that is quickly absorbed into the air flow. Or, in other words, it creates an incredibly dense, 100% RH "fog" of water vapor that is heavier than air.

The killer thing about it is, because of the size of the water molecules they can filter down and permeate almost any surface and - specifically in our case - the fog will sift right down through our casing layers and humidifier the substrate beneath it whereas the much larger particle size of the impeller tends to saturate the casing layer making it soggy.

If you're used pre-fab'd humidifier's you'd generally run the cool mist at about half speed or even less and then run the ultrasonic humidifier in bursts to bring the RH from the 60-70% that the impeller humidifier produces into the desired 85-100% range. it's a delicate balancing act between your FAE provided by the coolmist and the desired RH needed for pinning...

---
I'm sure others can dig a little deeper for a more solid answer however...


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblekane.ish
the ish
Male

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 60
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: mycocurious]
    #7576941 - 10/30/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

good info mycocurious, your bulk humidifier and greenhouse teks rock, though I don't think I can invest as much as you did into a setup...maybe someday lol.

So I've read on the boards of a lot of people using 4-5 inches of moistened perlite to keep rH up. In your experience how effective is using perlite versus a coolmist for base rH?

I'm thinking of just putting two or three plastic walmart dishpans full of moistened perlite on the bottom shelf of my martha FC to keep the rH up and then setting the ultrasonic to on/off bursts to boost rH.


--------------------
my cat knows my password, so it can be assumed that any and all posts I make are the result of the cat using the computer.

:tripping:


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Registered: 02/09/07
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Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: kane.ish]
    #7577007 - 10/30/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

until I built that humidifer, I used perlite as my only source of constant RH supplemented only through misting.

I will tell you though that in order to make it work at it's peak, you'll want to have the container holding the perlite having evenly spaced holes drilled on all sides, including the bottom. To "hydrate" the perlite - for lack of a better term - simply get it wet and let it drain in a colander / strainer and then dump it into your containers.

You'll hear talk of a "shotgun" style terrarium and I can attest to how well they work but the real key is the perlite's container being able to draw up air from all sides and through the bottom via convection (hot-air rising). Just dumping some in a dishpan won't give you the desired result because there's no way for the air to be pulled through it.

No standing water, no standing water, no standing water. Perlite does not work in standing water. It works by holding little mini-droplets of water on it's hard, pockmarked, crystalline crevasses. Because it doesn't actually absorb water it won't "wick it up" as some posts/teks in the archives suggest and at that point the only source for humidification is the water-vapor that's evaporating of the surface of the water... which is relatively low because of the surface tension of the water.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Offlineurayasan
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Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 111
Last seen: 16 years, 27 days
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: mycocurious]
    #7577155 - 10/30/07 03:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I guess what I was getting at was, are my hygrometers screwed up? This discussion makes me concerned that my greenhouse isn't recieving proper humidity. I run a single impeller and it easily puts everything at 100%, but from what I keep hearing it sounds like that shouldn't be right. I was under the impression it was only the "wicking" cool mists that could not break past the 60-70% mark.

:confused:


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Invisiblemycocurious
Mike O. Kuerias
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Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1,265
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: urayasan]
    #7577229 - 10/30/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

super simple hygrometer test/calibration technique...

get a small towel and get it soaking wet. Wring out almost all of the water and place it in a bowl. Place the hygrometer into the towel and cover the bowl. Come back an hour later and read the results. If it's not reading 99-100%, it's off and you should calibrate it to read 99-100% at this time.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Offlineurayasan
Stranger

Registered: 04/10/06
Posts: 111
Last seen: 16 years, 27 days
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: mycocurious]
    #7577256 - 10/30/07 03:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Great idea, thank you! I will do that right now...


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Invisiblekane.ish
the ish
Male

Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 60
Re: thoughts on cycling humidity [Re: urayasan]
    #7579957 - 10/31/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

wow, all I can say is perlite works wonders. RH is much higher and significantly more stable.

Anyway, so if I now use the ultrasonic to mist, will this be enough? Or should I go pick up a sprayer and use that? I'm sorry if this question has already been on the forums but I tend to get a lot of conflicting info on here with regard to spraying/humidity etc. Lot of variation in technique it seems and just want to know what you think would work best.


--------------------
my cat knows my password, so it can be assumed that any and all posts I make are the result of the cat using the computer.

:tripping:


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