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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
Mentally abusing children with religion
    #7573086 - 10/29/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's unfortunate that religiously-interested guardians instill their system of beliefs into the open minds of their children. I don't blame them, being that their parents likely indoctrinated them in the same manner, or that they have a strong conviction and a desire to 'care' for their children.

Children trust their elders because they have all of the answers. If a person is to become attracted to a specific religion oughtn't it happen during adult-hood?

When I was a child I would get excited when I knew Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny would be coming to my home to leave presents. I also kept a glass of water and a set of rosary beads near in case Satan would decide to appear alongside my bed during the night.

Learning about Heaven & Hell and having a tornado of unanswerable questions in my head I became extremely frightened of death. Every night I was afraid my mother would die. I had intense nightmares and would pray along my rosary beads to find comfort.

Looking back it kind of looks like an ideal method for brainwashing a child.

Children must be with their guardians, and if their guardians are religious then they must accompany them to religious ceremonies and such. But must guardians go the extra mile to ensure the successful seeding of religious beliefs? Should they?


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: elbisivni]
    #7573221 - 10/29/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

elbisivni said:
I also kept a glass of water and a set of rosary beads near in case Satan would decide to appear alongside my bed during the night.




What was the glass of water for - just in case Satan was thirsty....?


>^;;^<


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Invisibleelbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7573225 - 10/29/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I probably saw a movie and thought I could make him melt by throwing water on him. It was my best defense at the time.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: elbisivni]
    #7573241 - 10/29/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Indoctrination of the young is definitely nothing more than brainwashing. As you said, I'm sure 99% have good intentions. It's a bad cycle, from parent to child to grandchild, etc. The way I see it, it is up to each current generation to break the cycle.


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: elbisivni]
    #7573252 - 10/29/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Aaahh, the old holy water trick....

It was followed by the Santa Clause entry, and we used to leave a glass of milk and cookies for Santa as children.... 
So then I thought, were we supposed to leave a glass of water for Satan....?  :what:  :lol:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlineblunt master
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7573276 - 10/29/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think religion is necessarily a bad thing, I think it is something that society needs, and most parents who try to make their children follow a religion are trying to do something good.
But there definitely is a point where it becomes to much and they can be hurting their children...but thats like most things in life, too much of anything is usually bad for you


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: elbisivni]
    #7573471 - 10/29/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

All children are brainwashed regardless of religious brainwashing.

A child is an blank canvass which the adult humans paint upon.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: Ego Death]
    #7575217 - 10/30/07 01:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
All children are brainwashed regardless of religious brainwashing.

A child is an blank canvass which the adult humans paint upon.




No, it's not all brainwashing. :smirk:
Some of it is learning, growing in sentience and therefore in intelligence, improving our learning and logic skills.
Let's take a look at what the term of brain washing refers to:

Quote:

brain·wash·ing      (brān'wŏsh'ĭng, -wô'shĭng)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

  1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
  2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.




:strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: blunt master]
    #7575245 - 10/30/07 01:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blunt master said:
I don't think religion is necessarily a bad thing, I think it is something that society needs, and most parents who try to make their children follow a religion are trying to do something good.




Nobody here really said that parents have evil intentions when they try to indoctrinate their children with religious crap. On the contrary.
What must be take to account is that those ideas have serious repercussions in most cases, and that they leave marks in the child's development.
And also that these things must be taken to account if we ever want to improve who we are and how we act and react. Why not look for the best solutions to raise a child instead of just saying that it's all with good intentions?
There are parents which beat their children in order to "educate" them. I'm sure that they also do it because "they're trying to do something good".

Quote:

But there definitely is a point where it becomes to much and they can be hurting their children...but thats like most things in life, too much of anything is usually bad for you




This is an over generalization which doesn't serve any constructive purpose regarding this subject.
Could you probably outline which are the positive aspects of indoctrinating a child's mind with religion? And what's the point where it becomes bad?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBoots
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7575599 - 10/30/07 07:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I don't like the fact that it happens, but it's easy to understand the viewpoint of those that brainwash.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7575870 - 10/30/07 09:45 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Nobody here really said that parents have evil intentions when they try to indoctrinate their children with religious crap. On the contrary.

While parents might claim no evil conscious intentions. To my way of thinking the unconscious intent is very negative and in service of protecting the parent from the things that are naturally developing in the child that frighten and threaten them.


Edited by Icelander (10/30/07 09:46 AM)


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7575903 - 10/30/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Ego Death said:
All children are brainwashed regardless of religious brainwashing.

A child is an blank canvass which the adult humans paint upon.




No, it's not all brainwashing. :smirk:
Some of it is learning, growing in sentience and therefore in intelligence, improving our learning and logic skills.
Let's take a look at what the term of brain washing refers to:

Quote:

brain·wash·ing      (brān'wŏsh'ĭng, -wô'shĭng)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

  1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
  2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.




:strokebeard:




Fortunatly brainwashing can be deprogrammed. I thought I was roman catholic untill I read the bible. I had to go to a library to read it, because I remember my teachers and the priest next door would say "You don't need to read that." What? Surely I did, if I was to be any flavour of christian.

Reading halfway through genesis swiftly convinced me it was a load of hateful bollocks.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #7575907 - 10/30/07 09:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by LunarEclipse

Reason for deletion: cc



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #7575993 - 10/30/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Parents need to be protected from the example of natural sexuality and freedom that the children naturally exhibit. They are shut down and so the children are a threat to them. That's how it works dude.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/30/07 10:30 AM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: Icelander]
    #7576067 - 10/30/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Socialization is all about convincing humans to be less natural, less free, more fearful, more concerned with the approval of others, etc...

Organized Christianity-based religions are just particularly restrictive forms of socialization programs. :shrug:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: Veritas]
    #7576076 - 10/30/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup: Morning Veritas.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7580887 - 10/31/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What you call learning, I call programming. What we call brainwashing, I call re-programming but they are both programing.

The only true programming would be without input from OTHER humans. Only oneself. Surely this could be the only truly uninfluenced point of view?


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: elbisivni]
    #7580957 - 10/31/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's not right to attack religion as the only form of indoctrination. There are forms of indoctrination, religious and non religious. But the real issue is whether it is indoctrination to begin with. First of all, we can't apply the same standards to children as we can to adults. Children are not little adults. And we can't say it's indoctrination just because you believe it is wrong. If we apply the same standards to adults as we do to children then all children would be "indoctrinated" but that is not reality.

There are many people who think the other guys kids are being brainwashed, but never think about his own kids. "Oh, I'm just showing my child the facts". Doesn't every parents believe the same.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7580992 - 10/31/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Good post. You are right, religion is one of many forms of indoctrination.

then all children would be "indoctrinated" but that is not reality.


Actually to be ready to function in any society indoctrination is necessary.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePsychedelicPhish
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: Icelander]
    #7581143 - 10/31/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think that when people accept one religion as theirs, they shut out other ways of thinking, other ways of experiencing life. thus closing the mind.
Because religions teach use about cultures across the world, and where people came from and why their society is the way it is. and when a person takes one religion to be the 'only' one, they set up a negative/biased view of other cultures.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7581174 - 10/31/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i got kicked out of high school and was forced to go to a baptist private school for 1 year. crazy fundamentalist school--taught creationism, rock is the devil, that women should remain subservient to their husbands despite physical abuse, seriously the most blasphemous shit... and SO many kids from that school were fucked up in the head. a lot of them became drug addicts (i bumped into a few at dealers' houses and was quite surprised), very few of them actually moved on to university/college, they were just doing the total opposite of what the doctrines were teaching. shit, i ended up bumping into one from that school in the same mental institution we were locked at. he probably went crazy and cracked from having such a conservative, strict family.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7581275 - 10/31/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Strong point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: Crystal G]
    #7581284 - 10/31/07 03:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I believe to this day that much of what drives me bonkers and is fuel for my frequent states of depression was the result of my baptist abusive upbringing. Among other things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7581375 - 10/31/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

>I think it's not right to attack religion as the only form of indoctrination.
I guess it's a good thing that I wasn't then huh? :eyebrow:

Nor did I ever speak negatively of indoctrination itself.  I think the indoctrination of a child is important and necessary in the raising of a child because it helps to ensure that the child will mature into an individual who is fully capable of interacting within his/her cultural setting, abiding by the widely accepted ethical and moral standards.

I don't equate the word "indoctrination" with "brainwashing" at all.  What I was questioning in my post essentially was whether or not parents should stop and think before imposing radical personal beliefs on their children.

Again, I can understand their position and I respect their conviction but in regards to my experience, the religion that my parents imposed on me at a very young age brought no comfort, no hope, no happiness - only fright, hopelessness, loneliness and suffering were felt.  It has been a detriment to my personal growth and has overshadowed many of my younger years in misery.  But I don't for a second blame my parents for doing what they did, I have no negative feelings towards them in regards to our shared history on the subject.

Being taught how to tie my shoes, answer the phone, introduce myself, blar blar blar - those were helpful things.  Those and all the other things I learned at my parents hands during those years are all part of the same indoctrination that the religious teachings were a part of.  This brings us back to the beginning of my post.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.


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Offlinedismantled02
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: PsychedelicPhish]
    #7581560 - 10/31/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I was brought up Catholic but towards the end of high school I pretty threw out all the Catholicism I learned. I don't understand how parents can teach kids about religion when really as a kid some things cannot be understood. I used to wonder how Jesus could be with me at all times or how praying could answer my questions. They can't. I figured out you have to your will power.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Mentally abusing children with religion [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7586195 - 11/02/07 12:03 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
Indoctrination of the young is definitely nothing more than brainwashing. As you said, I'm sure 99% have good intentions. It's a bad cycle, from parent to child to grandchild, etc. The way I see it, it is up to each current generation to break the cycle.




Its also to blame for long blood feuds and other long standing bad traditions found all over the world.

I wish parents had the conviction in their own beliefs to let children grow up and then decide for themselves.

But then again, if this was done by everyone, in 1-2 generations religious worship would dramatically decline.


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