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Offlinemikebart101
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The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy
    #7553939 - 10/24/07 07:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"This is a government by the people for the people"

OK. OK. I get this point. I consistently see states asking the people to vote on laws, policy etc. within their state; this is democracy at work.

but

when it comes to federal laws, federal domestic policy, international policy, war, all the important decisions, etc. we have NO say.

Why is it that we as a people do not get to vote on EVERY decision that is made in this government. Isn't that what democracy is?

Of course we have a congress that is supposed to represent us as a whole but how do they know what our take is on a certain situation if everyone does not have a say.

Have you gone and visited your congressman to express your opinion about an upcoming decision? Its impossible. They are always fucking busy with bullshit when their job is to listen to everything the people say.

We should vote, just like a presidential election, and then let our congressmen take our results to the federal level. "Electoral" votes should be used in every decision process made within a TRUE democracy.

"Congress shall make no law" You know why? Because the people end up having no say whatsoever.

I remember in 9th grade American Gov., reading about some kind of failsafe the forefathers put in the constitution, that is used to fix a situation like this. I think we can petition the gov. on a federal level if we feel that they have been corrupt and power is then turned over to the people.

I have to research this. Get you pens out!


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So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: mikebart101]
    #7554203 - 10/24/07 09:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> "Electoral" votes should be used in every decision process made within a TRUE democracy.

That would not be a TRUE democracy.


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Offlinemikebart101
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Seuss]
    #7554470 - 10/24/07 10:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> That would not be a TRUE democracy.




How so. The people within each state vote and based on the outcome, that state's senators and reps. vote for the state on a federal level.


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So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: mikebart101]
    #7554569 - 10/24/07 11:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In a TRUE democracy everybody has a vote on every issue. By using electoral votes, you have created a representative democracy rather than a TRUE democracy.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Seuss]
    #7554639 - 10/24/07 11:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
In a TRUE democracy everybody has a vote on every issue. By using electoral votes, you have created a representative democracy rather than a TRUE democracy.




It's more TRUE of a democracy to have a republic based on the general vote rather than to have some stupid electoral college that puts one more layer inbetween the actual concensus and the result.

Having LESS votes and still being able to win doesn't sound like that great od a democracy to me.... sounds to me like some people's votes actually have more weight than others.

Let's also not forget that the congressperson that represents the district of columbia gets to debate, but NEVER GETS to vote on ANYTHING. We have almost half a million people that are elligible to vote in DC that are allowed to vote for a representative that ISN'T ALLOWED to vote.

Sure it's just a "flaw" in our democracy... but it's a BIG flaw if you ask me. Is long as the overwhelming majority of people in DC are of the minority party of the states, they'll never get the same rights.

People keep denying the right to allow their congressperson to vote saying that it's unconstitutional... but it sounds like a contradiction in the Constitution to me. All men are created equal, but this one city here isn't allowed equal voting rights.


Edited by BrAiN (10/24/07 12:38 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: BrAiN]
    #7554756 - 10/24/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, I give up on the capital letters.  :grin:

> We have almost half a million people that are elligible to vote in DC that are allowed to vote for a representative that ISN'T ALLOWED to vote.

Same as any other US territory such as Guam or Puerto Rico.


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Invisiblewps
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: mikebart101]
    #7554776 - 10/24/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I used to think that direct democracy would be a great idea.  just eliminate all the bureaucrats and have the people electronically vote on every issue. 

but as much as I hate to admit it, there are times we need a strong federal government to smack down on mob rule.  If it weren't for the feds going against popular laws, schools would still be segregated. 

if we left everything up to mob rule, there would be no minority rights, no checks and balances.  :shrug:


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"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: wps]
    #7554817 - 10/24/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We're getting to that point of MINORITIES having no rights. The representatives elected by the 51% of the public keep voting for gay rights amendments and anti abortion amendments to the constitution that would affect that 49%. Leave that shit to the states!


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Seuss]
    #7554840 - 10/24/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:

Same as any other US territory such as Guam or Puerto Rico.




Even worse.  If you're bound by the laws of America then you should be able to vote on those laws.

At least DC people pay income taxes to the federal gov't, which I've read Guam residents don't have to do. I could be wrong. Puerto Rico has to pay SOME taxes so they should at least have a little say.

Owning a geographical territory like Guam and Puerto rico, governing the way they're allowed to act, what they can do, what taxes they have to pay without giving them ANY ability to have a voice...

Sounds to me like the system the American colonies were in during Brittish rule. Correct me if I'm wrong.. but we had a war about that didn't we? Hmmm... Some kind of revolution.. in the american colonies? ... Can't quite remember what that war was called. I think Moses lead the troops to victory against the Liberal Media and signed a peace accord at a Dunkin Donuts, though... but then the Liberal Media came back in 1812 and slayed Moses for being a dirty jew. I also believed the French got involved because the Liberal Media kept eating all their Croissants :wink:

This has been another edition of the American History Lecture Series by Professor BrAiN. If you would like a transcript of tonight's lesson, please mail 20 dollars to ME and then copy and just print this page.


Edited by BrAiN (10/24/07 12:57 PM)


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: mikebart101]
    #7554988 - 10/24/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We were never a democracy, we are a republic.

The founding fathers did not want the public's hands directly on the wheel for a good reason- they are notoriously fickle and often uninformed on the issues. The system we have is not perfect but it is the best anyone has come up with.

The best thing we can do to make the government more responsive to the people is get big money out of politics and make corporate interests just one player in the game rather than the main player.

Unfortunately corporate power has become extremely entrenched in Washington over time and it will take a conscious effort to root it out..until the cycle starts all over again..

Periodic revolutions are needed. Not necessarily violent ones either.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Offlinekotik
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: zorbman]
    #7555186 - 10/24/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

democracy = mob rule. this is not what we want.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: mikebart101]
    #7556169 - 10/24/07 05:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

See the Tenth Amendment.


There have been very few cases that States rights have trumped Federal authority.......many due to the Commence Clause (or the interpretation thereof)


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinetheindianrepublic
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Seuss]
    #19301444 - 12/20/13 05:26 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> "Electoral" votes should be used in every decision process made within a TRUE democracy.

That would not be a TRUE democracy.





Vote is the only way to get in touch with all the civilians, for being a democratic nation government should respect all the people..but its not everywhere..I meant that the democracy is actually hide and it is being in focus when the election is on head..the leaders did a lots of promises and all to show there care and the sensitivity about the people and their problems..But actually, democracy is gonna failed, no one is here who understands the complete meaning of democracy..However, I know some mistakes are also ours why we elect such leader who don't work for us..is its good to do so..We should be aware and must be updated before electing anyone for leading the nation.

Thanks!
World News Headlines


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: theindianrepublic]
    #19301489 - 12/20/13 05:52 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Territories do get a vote, they have representatives. In fact one from Guam is so retarded he actually believed that Guam would tip over due to population growth. That's for realz.

in conclusion, yes the territories have votes, yes they have reps and pay tax where applicable. Token power for token territories.


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Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: myc_check1212]
    #19301696 - 12/20/13 07:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That was Hank Johnson who said that, and he's from Georgia, not guam.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Enlil]
    #19302630 - 12/20/13 12:11 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I'm sure that if you write a solid 10 page suggestion about something feasible that would have a positive impact on society, the congressman would read it. As for making it a reality, he has to convince all the other congressman cause technically, that's his real job. Convincing the group.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Patlal]
    #19302769 - 12/20/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Lol, no...he's not going to read 10 pages


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Enlil]
    #19302804 - 12/20/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol, no...he's not going to read 10 pages




Yeah... I kinda assumed these guys know how to read... My bad


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Patlal]
    #19302808 - 12/20/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

They do.  They don't have time for that.  They have people that read that shit for them.


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Invisiblemyc_check1212
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Enlil]
    #19302922 - 12/20/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I stand corrected


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Lord_Senate: Pedophiles, rapists and everything in between.

pastywhyte said: I'm not going to rush, I believe crow is best served cold.

AhabMcBathsalts said: This is why democracy doesn't work. Because idiots like this get a fucking vote.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Patlal]
    #19303431 - 12/20/13 03:18 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol, no...he's not going to read 10 pages




Yeah... I kinda assumed these guys know how to read... My bad




Why would you assume that?  None of them read the Obamacare bill.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19304344 - 12/20/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol, no...he's not going to read 10 pages




Yeah... I kinda assumed these guys know how to read... My bad




Why would you assume that?  None of them read the Obamacare bill.




99% of Americans didn't either.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Patlal]
    #19304410 - 12/20/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol, no...he's not going to read 10 pages




Yeah... I kinda assumed these guys know how to read... My bad




Why would you assume that?  None of them read the Obamacare bill.




99% of Americans didn't either.



I think you are a tad low on that estimate.  I would put it more at 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%  But that is irrelevant.  There are about 600 people in the country who we are paying to read it and I don't think a single one of them did.  Every one of them who voted for it should be fired.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The United States Federal Government DESTROYED Democracy [Re: Patlal]
    #19305144 - 12/20/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
I'm sure that if you write a solid 10 page suggestion about something feasible that would have a positive impact on society, the congressman would read it. As for making it a reality, he has to convince all the other congressman cause technically, that's his real job.





That's not a congressmans job.  Any fool knows that a congressman's job is to give away enough Free Stuff to his constituents, and do enough favors for his buddies in industry, that he gets the money and votes to keep getting himself reelcted and thus keeping the gravy train rolling. :smirk:


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