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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
If the Universe was always here...
    #7546815 - 10/22/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

how would it be possible for today to have arrived? Think about it for a minute. If time did not start at the Big Bang or if there have been an infinite number of Big Bangs and Big Crunches, how could there be a now for us? As this seems an impossibility (if you are following my logic here: -infinity + 1 never seems to go anywhere), is this not evidence for a definite Beginning? If not, what is the flaw in my logic?


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Offlinemushroomplume
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Registered: 10/16/06
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7546856 - 10/22/07 01:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe I am missing your logic, but today is a segment of infinity.

Just as numbers are infinite, the number 8 has its place in the number-line too.

-Cheers


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Invisiblemkc
Vajrayana
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Registered: 06/04/07
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7546903 - 10/22/07 01:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Delusion :onfire:


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OfflineLion
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: mkc]
    #7546910 - 10/22/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How is what he said delusional?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7546933 - 10/22/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe I am missing your logic...




Perhaps I am not saying it clearly. Let's try the same thought experiment with distance. Imagine there is a star an infinite distance away and you have a spaceship that can go nearly the speed of light that requires no fuel. Your ship will never arrive. Ever.

-Infinity + a trillion, trillion, trillion years (you name the amount of time) still would not bring us to today.


--------------------


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OfflineKinematics
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Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: Lion]
    #7546937 - 10/22/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Don't you read the bible? Silly person, god made it so. :crazy2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: Kinematics]
    #7546979 - 10/22/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Same argument, is it not?

If God was always here, how many units of time would have to pass before the creation? An infinte number is the correct response.


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OfflineEl Zorro
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7546999 - 10/22/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Boggle Boggle Boggle


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7547003 - 10/22/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'll pray to god that he forgives you


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7547144 - 10/22/07 02:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

e=mc2


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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7547153 - 10/22/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Maybe I am missing your logic...




Perhaps I am not saying it clearly. Let's try the same thought experiment with distance. Imagine there is a star an infinite distance away and you have a spaceship that can go nearly the speed of light that requires no fuel. Your ship will never arrive. Ever.

-Infinity + a trillion, trillion, trillion years (you name the amount of time) still would not bring us to today.




hmm, you could just be smarter than me mister, but I'll try to respond. :grin:

The star is set at infinite, where the the ship is not, the ship is going at a certain rate. As long as you have something at a set rate/speed it will never reach what is infinite.

Just with the timeline, if I take 5 and add 1 to it forever, it will never reach infinite.

Even on an infinite timespan, there is still room to maneuver, even with no beginning, there are sequence's of events that have taken place.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7547221 - 10/22/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

OrgoneConclusion,

Its not that cyclic Big Bang's and Big Crunches would insinuate infinite, it would just insinuate the absolute beginning is impossible to understand.

Assume for a moment that it is near the end of the Universe's life cycle. What happens to all the energy within the Universe at that stage?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: psyka]
    #7547231 - 10/22/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

it would just insinuate the absolute beginning is impossible to understand.




:thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7547280 - 10/22/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Because time is a dimension of this universe, it did not (or does not? I always fail at accurately explaining this...) exist in whatever there was (is?) outside of this universe. The universe can exist over and over again - even infinity times? - and "time" still exists (as a dimension) with an absolute beginning and ending.

So, yes, "time" as a dimension can not be without limits...but it can happen over and over again. I'm not sure, though, about the events that take place in the time-frame of this universe...does repeating a set amount of time an infinite number of times mean each and every set has to be exactly the same?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: trendal]
    #7547292 - 10/22/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Is this a case of adding infinity anywhere in the equation has the effect of the equation not being equal to reality?

You may be on to something here...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7547389 - 10/22/07 03:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If not, what is the flaw in my logic?

The term infinity, can only be described and understood as a concept. There is no way to measure an infinite time or to measure an infinite anything.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: trendal]
    #7547594 - 10/22/07 04:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Replacing 'time' with a 'universe that repeats indefinitely' appears to this poster to pose the same dilemma.


--------------------


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Posts: 8,808
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7547818 - 10/22/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

as the proverb goes, Tomorrow never comes.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinemushroomplume
Stranger

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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: Cracka_X]
    #7547861 - 10/22/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Orgone,

What is that squid looking dinosaur in your sig?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7547939 - 10/22/07 05:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Then we can safely say that if the universe were to repeat itself, it would do so in exactly the same way. Have I typed this before? :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7547997 - 10/22/07 05:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It is a long-nosed chimera, a deep sea cousin to the shark and the ray.


--------------------


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7548664 - 10/22/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

neato


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: If the Universe was always here... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7549094 - 10/22/07 09:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
how would it be possible for today to have arrived? Think about it for a minute. If time did not start at the Big Bang or if there have been an infinite number of Big Bangs and Big Crunches, how could there be a now for us? As this seems an impossibility (if you are following my logic here: -infinity + 1 never seems to go anywhere), is this not evidence for a definite Beginning? If not, what is the flaw in my logic?




Time is not real. Finite minds cannot reason out infinity.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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