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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: "treating people like shit" [Re: Kinematics]
    #7547495 - 10/22/07 04:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kinematics said:
Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I want real evidence, not anecdotes.




I was about to get mad at your post, but I didn't. Evidence. :tongue2:




:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: "treating people like shit" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7550411 - 10/23/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I would love to see some evidence that people are responsible for their emotional states.




As opposed to our emotional states being created by external forces, or as opposed to our emotional states being initiated by uncontrollable inner mechanisms?

You've read Albert Ellis, so you are familiar with the techniques of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.  If we can alter our habitual emotional reactions to events, doesn't this point to personal responsibility for the creation of those reactions in the first place?  :confused:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: "treating people like shit" [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7550889 - 10/23/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"treating people like shit"

Now that I have had time to think about this it doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Your debate was strong and sound and I am convinced. Thank you. I have learned much here.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: "treating people like shit" [Re: Veritas]
    #7551722 - 10/23/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Rational Emotive therapy is based on the premise that cognitions influence emotions, not that thoughts can control or manipulate emotions. REBT is used mainly to combat the negative and irrational thinking of people suffering from depression. Hopelessness, helplessness, and worthlessness are all common thoughts of a depressed person and REBT attacks these ideas by pointing out their irrationality.

Rational Emotive therapy, Behavioral Activation, Cognitive therapy, etc, are used to treat psychopathologies. None of these therapies give human beings control over their emotions. The only control human beings have over their own emotions is the control that they have on their environment. Of course people can change themselves, but it is not as simple as, "Hey, stop being sad and be happy!" It takes time and effort.

I can't understand why everyone seems to cling to this notion that human beings are all-too-rational and have absolute control over every aspect of their mental lives. This sort of thinking contradicts everything we know about how the brain works. It seems like many people use this idea as a way to excuse themselves from the responsibility of hurting others. "Yeah, so what? I slept with his wife last night. It is his fault for being so damn upset, not mine."


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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: "treating people like shit" [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7553268 - 10/23/07 11:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree, but I'll get into that in a minute.

You did not answer my question: do you think that our emotions are under the control of outside persons, controlled by an inner mechanism over which we have no real authority, or _______________?

We've discussed this before, of course, and I have stated before that I do not think that we have absolute control over our emotions, but that we are nonetheless responsible for our emotions.  If not, then who is?  No one?  Others who "hurt" us and "make" us experience our own emotions?

I'm not talking about excuses for behaving in abominable ways, but rather pinpointing the actual origin of our reactions to the behavior of others.  They are not the origin, they are not in control, and no one makes us feel emotions. 

OK, as to REBT being useful "mainly" for depression.  Let's dig into this one a wee bit, shall we?  :grin:

Now, I'm not certain just how deeply you've delved into REBT, but I've not only been investigating this method for years, I've also USED it to my own great benefit.  Far from being restricted in it's application, I would go so far as to say that it is the only effective method of dealing with what many call "the human condition," aka NEUROSIS. 

Quote:

The fundamental premise of REBT is that people to a large degree disturb, upset and defeat themselves through how they construct their view of reality by the means of their evaluations, beliefs and philosophies about negative events in addition to the events themselves.




Ellis gives credit for the basis of his therapeutic techniques to Epictetus, who wrote:

“We cannot choose our external circumstances, but we can always choose how we respond to them.”
 
I agree with you that no therapy can give human beings control over their emotions, because this control is already ours.  And by control I do not mean a robot-like, rigid, absolute control, but rather the ability to understand how we create and prolong our emotional states.

REBT reminds us that it is possible to use our minds for our benefit instead of to our own detriment.  It does take time and effort, and no one familiar with REBT would say otherwise.  So what?  Does this mean that we are somehow not responsible for the consequences of our irrational thinking?  If we're not, then who is? :confused:


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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