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Offlineranke
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"Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock
    #7545022 - 10/22/07 12:43 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

After reading through a few of the threads in this section I must say I am thoroughly pissed off. As a pharmacology student I am at a loss for how so many people have come to the conclusion that doctors don't know shit, that anti-depressant, anti-anxiety, and ADD medications are dangerous and worthless, that any ol' herb is beneficial, and that exercise and proper diet fix everything. Before making such claims I suggest reading a few studies and educating yourself on the subject of neuropharmacology. For starters lets look at anti-depressants.

Anti-depressants
So before you go condemning all anti-depressants as just a way for pharmaceutical companies to make money (although that is one of their main functions) and that they serve no purpose, why not figure out how they work?

Currently most anti-depressants fall into one of the following categories:

SSRI's
This stands for Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors
The theory behind this is by increasing serotonin levels you can remove some of the symptoms of depression. An SSRI works by slowing the reuptake of serotonin from the synapses. However it does not slow the reuptake of serotonin at all receptors. Due to the number of 5-HT (serotonin) receptor families and the subtypes located within each one I won't cover which drug affects what subtype. Suffice it to say that SSRI's increase serotonin levels by slowing the rate at which serotonin is removed from the synapses.

So the question is of course, what's so bad about increasing serotonin levels? The answer is of course not much. Aside from possible side effects (present in ANY drug, yes herbs have side effects) there is nothing to suggest SSRI's are in anyway "damaging" to the brain. In fact, SSRI's may have neuroprotective properties.1

One last important thing to note is that the drugs you all know and love are entirely dependent serotonin. Psychedelics act as 5-HT receptor agonists, stimulating the receptors directly rather than increasing serotonin levels.

Now you've all probably heard about some of the side effects associated with using SSRI's and maybe consider that evidence to support your claim that they are dangerous, useless, doc mumbojumbo, etc, etc, etc. So if you are depressed and are offered an SSRI by your doctor what should you do? Evaluate the positives compared to the negatives and MAKE UP YOUR OWN FUCKING MIND. If you don't want to risk the side effects Don't Take The God Damned Drug. You managed to make the decision with psychedelics, use the powerful brain and do it again.

I'm tired for now, I will expand this post tomorrow.

1http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/20/24/9104


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Offlinerodfarva
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: ranke]
    #7545041 - 10/22/07 12:49 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

edit


--------------------


Edited by trendal (10/22/07 08:54 AM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: rodfarva]
    #7545049 - 10/22/07 12:51 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

edit


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


Edited by trendal (10/22/07 08:54 AM)


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Offlineranke
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: rodfarva]
    #7545053 - 10/22/07 12:51 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

lol, what have I done suck so much in your eyes?


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: ranke]
    #7545097 - 10/22/07 01:05 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sorry, while SSRI's are still safer than the old-school tricyclic MAOIs, there is a lot of debate over whether the withdrawal is safe. I was on a low dose of prozac for a month (only 10mg-30mg), that a psychiatrist had prescribed to me (though I am not sure WHY, considering I told her I had NO depression problems)... after I got fed up when I was seeing no improvements, I quit, and then I suddenly DEVELOPED depression for a brief period... WHEN I NEVER FUCKING HAD IT BEFORE. The reason? If you are chemically increasing serotonin levels in your body, your brain downregulates and becomes accustomed to producing far less in the long run.

I never touched SSRI's since. Anything that can give me the alleged symptom that it's supposed to cure (especially when I never even HAD the fucking symptom to start off with) is not safe.

It has nothing to do with knowledge or lack of knowledge, it's the fucking system. The issue here, is that huge pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly visit various medical institutes and hold conferences with doctors, to basically act like legal drug pushers. They even go as far as to offer vacation trips, consolation fucking PRIZES to the doctors for getting this many patients on a new substance. Don't you think it's a little strange when a single doctor has nearly all of his patients on Ambien or Lexapro?


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OfflineMK Ultra
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: Crystal G]
    #7545217 - 10/22/07 01:33 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The effects of these drugs are unpredictable at best. While they do work for some people, one statistic showed that 70% of people on anti-depressants still had symptoms of depression. And that's a GOOD scenario. A lot of us have had some hellatious experiences with psychiatric meds, myself included. Many of these experiences could have been avoided if only these medications weren't handed out so freely by doctors who, most of the time, don't so much as MENTION the possibility of side effects or "discontinuation syndrome" (read: withdrawal).

Doctors are not psychiatrists, and it's time they stop prescribing drugs for mental problems that they know little to nothing about. How many people in here who've been prescribed psychiatric meds can honestly tell me that the doctor informed you of the seriousness of these drugs? Told you that they weren't a long-term solution to your problems, but a short-term diversion meant for the most seriously depressed or mentally ill patients? Warned you of the risks, such as seizures (Wellbutrin), extreme weight gain (Risperdal and Anafranil), nightmares, suicidal thoughts, constipation, dry mouth, fatigue, stroke (Paxil) mania, discontinuation syndrome, diabetes/ketoacidosis (Seroquel/Risperdal, etc.) and all the other not-so-uncommon side effects caused by use of these drugs by the wrong people? I certainly wasn't informed of ANY of these things. The drugs, in all instances, were made out to be as safe as peanut butter, which just isn't true.

I realize that they have their place in the pharmacopoeia, but the fact is they're just prescribed too often. It's become the answer to EVERYTHING. Got anxiety? Take a pill. Feeling sad? Take a pill. They're even inventing new disorders (PMDD) to treat with old medications (Sarafem, which is really just Prozac taken at a certain time of the month. This was done on the spur of the moment, about a week before the patent for Prozac was going to be up, so they patented "Sarafem" as a treatment for "PMDD". Genius).

Maybe YOU should do some research on psychiatric medications, because God knows I've done mine. After having a seizure and "pseudoparkinsonian reaction" on Wellbutrin, gaining 50 lbs. in 3 months on Risperdal, spitting on my roommate and trying to cut myself for the first time while quitting Lexapro, and spending 6 years of my life in a drug-induced amotivational state, you better believe I've done the research.

I'm proud to say I've been off all medications since December 2006 and will never be giving money to the makers of these drugs again, at least not for this purpose.


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Offlineboxcarguy07 Happy Birthday!
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: MK Ultra]
    #7545251 - 10/22/07 01:40 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Preach it brother!


--------------------
:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


:psychsplit:"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
            -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:psychsplit:


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Offlineranke
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: Crystal G]
    #7545284 - 10/22/07 01:47 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
The issue here, is that huge pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly visit various medical institutes and hold conferences with doctors, to basically act like legal drug pushers. They even go as far as to offer vacation trips, consolation fucking PRIZES to the doctors for getting this many patients on a new substance. Don't you think it's a little strange when a single doctor has nearly all of his patients on Ambien or Lexapro?




Of course they are pushed to prescribed certain things and yes the pharmaceutical companies methods are disgusting. Thats the way capitalist systems work (I've got nothing against capitalism). It is your job as the consumer to educate your self and CHOOSE. Everything has risks and the medical community will debate till the end of time whether or not the withdrawl from SSRI's is damaging (I couldn't find any studies showing it was). But there are some people who benefit from the use of SSRI's. They have deemed it acceptable. If you find that it does not meet your requirements just stop taking it. If you object to being prescribed Ambian (and yes I know doctors push it, I had it pushed at me) you are the fucking customer. Doctors swear the hippocratic oath and in that they swear to work only for the good of their patient. You pay the doctor, if he doesn't do his job well GET ANOTHER ONE. If your doctor says "I want to try Ambien for you sleep problem" and you object all you have to say is this "I know Ambien is the first line treatment for sleeplessness but it's brand new and still under patent, it's really expensive and I would prefer another similar sedative hypnotic that is available in a generic version. I was thinking maybe Zopiclone since it's so similar to ambien but it's not under patent."

Now it doesn't have to be that detailed but if you want good service you need to prepare your self. It if 100% your responsibility, you cannot expect other people to always be honest. If you get your car fixed you ask what was wrong don't you? If they tell you they needed to change the oil and it will cost you 700 dollars you know you're being fucked with. Take responsibility for your own god damn actions.


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Offlineranke
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: MK Ultra]
    #7545306 - 10/22/07 01:55 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

*sigh*
Again doctors are people and people make mistakes. So take responsibility for your own health. You wouldn't let someone pack your parachute would you? When I get sick I tell the doctor exactly what I want. If I get a cold I go to the doctor and say "my throat hurts, I feel like shit, I need to go to school, can you give me prescription cough syrup?" (asking for codeine cough syrup by name is drug seeking behavior and gets marked in your records) And you know what? I get what I ask for. When I got a 1 month script for the still under patent 30mg adderall xr's (they give you the first month free to push their product) I accepted and at the end of a month said I didn't like them. I asked for a dose spread out over the day as IR and he gave me 10mg 3x a day. A good doctor listens to you and recognizes that you know your symptoms and body chemistry best.


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: rodfarva]
    #7545883 - 10/22/07 08:51 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

edit...

Come back to us when you have studied the history of pharmacy and tell us why it is that SSRI's which are supposed to make people better statistically increase suicide rates.

If I'm depressed, there's no remedy for it except bud, exercise and sunlight. Works far better than any lithium or prozac. Oh no! That's not going to pay for all your years in medical school? Yes it will. Not everyone is willing to educate themselves, not everyone is able/willing to see the cause of their problems and resolve that, thinking life's ills can be cured by a course of expensive little pills.


--------------------
Wiccan_Seeker said:
slide down a pole than with your legs spread and using your pussy as a brake. Ask the fire department :imslow:


Edited by trendal (10/22/07 08:56 AM)


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7545909 - 10/22/07 09:19 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Come back to us when you have studied the history of pharmacy and tell us why it is that SSRI's which are supposed to make people better statistically increase suicide rates.





Because depressed people are far more likely to attempt suicide. Further, this effect is relatively weak, and only found in adolescents.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineDimensionX
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: badchad]
    #7545963 - 10/22/07 09:56 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I dont think you can call this poppy cock though. When peoples health has been turned into a commercial enterprise i think there is just cause for concern.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7545969 - 10/22/07 09:58 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

As a pharmacology student...

He said he was a pharmacology student...so he probably knows a bit more than any armchair researcher :wink:

Drugs are drugs...they aren't "evil" or "good" or anything. They are tools, and useful tools at that!

Taking a pure substance will almost always be advisable over taking a mixture of substances as with a herb or other "natural" remedy. We should draw a line here in between "psychiatric drugs" and "regular drugs"...psychiatric drugs are widely over prescribed - and although this is as much the fault of the consumer as anyone, there is a sizable portion of general practitioners who seem to like prescribing these drugs.

Regular drugs - those that do not have an effect on the brain (or at least do not have a psychological effect as their primary effect) - are invaluable to modern society. A great many people would not be alive today if it were not for drugs. My mother could have very likely experienced a hypertensive crisis if it were not for the beta-blockers she takes. My father would almost certainly have experienced a stroke or heart attack by now if it were not for the cholesterol reducing statins he is on. That's just in my immediate family.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlineranke
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: trendal]
    #7546086 - 10/22/07 11:07 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Hurrah!

Thank you both badchad and trendal.

Trendal is correct and said essentially what I was trying to say but much more simply. I would also like to make clear I do recognize that some medications are way over prescribed. However mistakes by some do not invalidate all possible uses.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: ranke]
    #7546589 - 10/22/07 02:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ranke said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
The issue here, is that huge pharmaceutical companies like Eli Lilly visit various medical institutes and hold conferences with doctors, to basically act like legal drug pushers. They even go as far as to offer vacation trips, consolation fucking PRIZES to the doctors for getting this many patients on a new substance. Don't you think it's a little strange when a single doctor has nearly all of his patients on Ambien or Lexapro?




Of course they are pushed to prescribed certain things and yes the pharmaceutical companies methods are disgusting. Thats the way capitalist systems work (I've got nothing against capitalism). It is your job as the consumer to educate your self and CHOOSE. Everything has risks and the medical community will debate till the end of time whether or not the withdrawl from SSRI's is damaging (I couldn't find any studies showing it was). But there are some people who benefit from the use of SSRI's. They have deemed it acceptable. If you find that it does not meet your requirements just stop taking it. If you object to being prescribed Ambian (and yes I know doctors push it, I had it pushed at me) you are the fucking customer. Doctors swear the hippocratic oath and in that they swear to work only for the good of their patient. You pay the doctor, if he doesn't do his job well GET ANOTHER ONE. If your doctor says "I want to try Ambien for you sleep problem" and you object all you have to say is this "I know Ambien is the first line treatment for sleeplessness but it's brand new and still under patent, it's really expensive and I would prefer another similar sedative hypnotic that is available in a generic version. I was thinking maybe Zopiclone since it's so similar to ambien but it's not under patent."

Now it doesn't have to be that detailed but if you want good service you need to prepare your self. It if 100% your responsibility, you cannot expect other people to always be honest. If you get your car fixed you ask what was wrong don't you? If they tell you they needed to change the oil and it will cost you 700 dollars you know you're being fucked with. Take responsibility for your own god damn actions.




Yes, that was my point. Many times doctors and the large companies are frankly immoral and have disgusting ulterior motives, and if they know what's good for them, they shouldn't walk around talking big shit all the time.

The points are here:
1) If you admit to your doctor you have used illegal substances in the past, this will raise a huge red flag and make you automatically illegible for certain items (despite the fact that you may need them).
2) If your doctor suspects you of being mentally handicapped in any way, it can be used against you in ways I will not even begin to describe. Most of your pleas will be considered irrelevant and dismissed.

Since doctors always seem to "know better" and "know what's good for you," seems that the only way to get prescribed what you want is to lie your ass off and hide your true self.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: Crystal G]
    #7546626 - 10/22/07 02:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Since doctors always seem to "know better" and "know what's good for you," seems that the only way to get prescribed what you want is to lie your ass off and hide your true self.

In your case, crystal, I do not think what you want is what you need. It's the doctor's job to figure out what you need, not give you what you want.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: Crystal G]
    #7546698 - 10/22/07 02:28 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:


Yes, that was my point. Many times doctors and the large companies are frankly immoral and have disgusting ulterior motives, and if they know what's good for them, they shouldn't walk around talking big shit all the time.





You sound like someone whose more upset at the "status symbol" given to doctors rather than the performance of their work.

There's way too much "conspiracy theorist" mentality, you don't even consider that most doc's simply take the requests of their patients.

Alot of kids who initially get prescribed anti-deppressants, is because of their PARENTS. It's the PARENTS who don't see their kids reaching their OWN academic expectations, so they realize...

"oh my kid, something must be wrong with him, he's not getting straight A's"

"he must have ADHD, i've done all the research online, can you give him something for it?"

A doctor can't refuse this kind of request, especially if the overseer is the parents, who legally, can make the health care decisions. If the doctor refuses, the parents will simply go find another pediatrician untill they get what they want, which is the drugs for their kids who don't even have ADHD.

Quote:

The points are here:
1) If you admit to your doctor you have used illegal substances in the past, this will raise a huge red flag and make you automatically illegible for certain items (despite the fact that you may need them).
2) If your doctor suspects you of being mentally handicapped in any way, it can be used against you in ways I will not even begin to describe. Most of your pleas will be considered irrelevant and dismissed.






1) substance abuse with doctors is a huge issue, BECAUSE the access to all kinds of schedules are at your disposal. At the hospital i work at, they'll on occasion, find a resident or anaesthesiolgist completely hopped up on their own drugs, passed out on hospital beds....of course by law they're immediately stripped of their license.

2) You clearly know nothing about the patient bill of rights, and you clearly are exaggerating this beyond the point of logic. Maybe you've been watching too much "requiem for a dream"


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7546833 - 10/22/07 03:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LiquidSmoke said:
You sound like someone whose more upset at the "status symbol" given to doctors rather than the performance of their work.




I'm actually upset because I've taken some pretty big shit from medical staff because of personal choices I've taken with my own body. Fuck bringing up the concept of status symbol, that hasn't got shit to do with anything. EVERYBODY'S got some level of status, goddamn.

Quote:

1) substance abuse with doctors is a huge issue, BECAUSE the access to all kinds of schedules are at your disposal. At the hospital i work at, they'll on occasion, find a resident or anaesthesiolgist completely hopped up on their own drugs, passed out on hospital beds....of course by law they're immediately stripped of their license.

2) You clearly know nothing about the patient bill of rights, and you clearly are exaggerating this beyond the point of logic. Maybe you've been watching too much "requiem for a dream"




First, edit I saw requiem once when I was like 14, and I thought the movie sucked balls. Second, I know these things based on my own experience. When I had a nervous breakdown and was sent to the psychiatric unit, man I realized a lot of the patients in there STILL to this DAY get treated like SHIT.

My doctor would not prescribe me anything except for Prozac and Zyprexa (like no fucking shit, she was just scripting that shit to everybody else). She thought I was going to abuse seroquel even, and wouldn't give me that. After hearing what everybody else was on, I knew that she only wanted to keep me on that shit to benefit her own self.

First day I went in there, I told her I have temporal lobe epilepsy and requested neurontin. I even gave her the name and location of my neurologist, and she said "I'm not giving you those meds." WHAT. WHY??? Was she fucking waiting till I was gonna seize or something? It's fucking neurontin, not a goddamn barbiturate, what the fuck's her problem?

One guy in his 50's that was there, who had cerebral palsy and extreme depression--they caught him trying to hang himself in his room about 3 times. His psychiatrist, who finally got fed up with his lack of improvement, barged into the lunch room where we were all eating, and SCREAMED at this poor man (who is crying by the way), sharing all the explicit details of his condition, his suicide attempts, everything that is supposed to remain confidential, in front of EVERYBODY THERE.

Yeah. Fuck that. I realized this was NOT the place I wanted to be, this was NOT the place that was going to make me any better, and I requested to leave.

When I requested, they put me on a "lockdown" and held me there against my will. WHY??!?!?!! I ain't fucking bothering anybody, I told my doc from the beginning I AM NOT suicidal, nor did I have ANY homicidal tendencies. She then wrote me down for all the misbehaviors I DID NOT EVER HAVE to keep me there. WHEN ALL I DID WAS ASK TO LEAVE. Who the fuck wouldn't want to after seeing bullshit like that??? No seriously, I've never seen such bullying in my life at a hospital, in a professional setting I would only expect that shit from a team of police officers or jail wardens.

I ended up getting so pissed off I faked a bunch of panic attacks everyday I was in there just to score some lorazepam.


Edited by trendal (10/22/07 03:10 PM)


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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: MK Ultra]
    #7546848 - 10/22/07 03:07 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MK Ultra said:

Doctors are not psychiatrists,





:rolleyes:


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: "Evil docters, dangerous pharms..." Enough of this poppy cock [Re: LiquidSmoke]
    #7546861 - 10/22/07 03:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

uhh, all doctors arent psychiatrists, but psychiatrists can be considered physicians, considering they DO specialize in a field of medicine. :rolleyes:


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