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OfflineYosefxp
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7525999 - 10/16/07 11:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Ok I'll give this another go...

Instead of going through your post point by point and then getting a point by point reply I'll try and pull it all together.

I would like you to define for me, what it is exactly that you are defending. I believe it is the idea that our behaviour is not completely controlled by the environment which I find wrong.

You talk about our behaviour as being controlled by these inner thoughts and feelings. You use words like reason and consciousness to describe them but where did these things come from? Does a 1 second old baby have reason?

So please tell me what you are defending and we can start to make this debate more cohesive.


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7526847 - 10/17/07 07:48 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I did that lots of times until now and each time you answered basically the same thing - that you still believe that each action and feeling of ours is controlled by the environment and this obviously is getting us nowhere.
I guess we'll just have to either agree or disagree on this. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7528643 - 10/17/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You talk about our behaviour as being controlled by these inner thoughts and feelings. You use words like reason and consciousness to describe them but where did these things come from? Does a 1 second old baby have reason?




Yes, a human has the beginnings of reason while still in utero

Quote:

Reason
The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.




If our behavior were completely controlled by the environment, we would be helpless puppets.  Of course our behavior originates from within, as this is where we process and interpret the incoming stimuli of our environment, and determine an appropriate reaction or response.  (The latter of the two being more reflex than reason.)

I'm not sure what your confidence in behaviorism is based upon, as my studies (both independent and upper-level university) in psychology all reflected the current understanding that pure behaviorism was discarded after the 1960's.  Cognitive-behavioral therapy is the current model, and is far more predictive and reasonable than Skinner's model of humans as mindless robots.  :tongue:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Veritas]
    #7528708 - 10/17/07 05:44 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I have long aspired to be a mindless robot. I am going to join a church and the Republican party and complete my mission. :yesnod:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7528748 - 10/17/07 05:55 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I thought you already did :confused:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineYosefxp
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7529471 - 10/17/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Lol yeah ok, let's agree to disagree.

And cognitive psychology is good if you like hypothetical constructs and hundreds of unprovable theories. All these reasoning and thinking skills must come from somewhere, surely a baby doesn't posess them. They must be learnt.

And CBT is derived from radical behaviourism.


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7529484 - 10/17/07 10:26 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I am no longer interested in continuing this discussion with you because it leads nowhere and because you systematically refuse to answer my points.
Therefore we'll just have to disagree.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7531833 - 10/18/07 03:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

All these reasoning and thinking skills must come from somewhere, surely a baby doesn't posess them. They must be learnt.




Yes, and who learns?  What capacity must we possess in order to learn?  C'mon, we are not passively sitting there, containing environmental cues.  :rolleyes:

Quote:

And CBT is derived from radical behaviourism.





Nope, sorry, CBT is based upon the philosophy proposed by Epictetus, and was refined and expanded-upon by Albert Ellis. (The greatest psychologist of our time, IMO.)  Behaviorism came later, and was based upon animal studies.  (You've heard of Pavlov?)  Again, there are no reputable psychologists who still propose that behaviorism is the key to understanding humans OR long-term behavioral change.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Veritas]
    #7531852 - 10/18/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The greatest psychologist of our time, IMO.

I agree, there is none better.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineYosefxp
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Icelander]
    #7532664 - 10/18/07 07:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Our nervous system learns. Like any other animal.

According to wikipedia, CBT "developed out of behavior modification, Cognitive Therapy and Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy". Behaviour modification is pretty much behaviourism so it definately has a part to play.

So to clarify, I'm not talking about regular behaviourism but radical behaviourism. Here's what wikipedia says
"Radical Behaviorism which unlike methodological behaviorism did not require truth by consensus so it could accept private events such as thinking, perception and emotion in its account. Also, unlike all of the other Behaviorisms - Tolman, Hull, Clark and others - Skinner's version radically rejected mediating constructs and the hypothetico-deductive method, instead offering a strongly inductive, data driven approach that has proven to be successful in dozens of areas from behavioral pharmacology to language therapy in the developmentally delayed."


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7534637 - 10/19/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry, but you clearly do not understand human learning if you believe that it is based in the nervous system.  :lol:

Behavior modification is NOT the same thing as Behaviorism.  Skinner and his followers proposed that humans were masses of conditioned reflexes.  This is an overly-simplistic, mechanistic, absurd description of the complexity of human learning and the behavior which results from thoughts and experiences.

Plus, any father who thinks that putting an infant in a BOX is a great way to parent gets a big :thumbdown: from me.

Check out Albert Ellis if you are interested in a comprehensive approach to changing behavior from within.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Veritas]
    #7538153 - 10/20/07 02:49 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Inbetween I informed myself a bit. I came to the interesting conclusion, that Yosefxp is right to a very large  percentage. That means, the choice of a human might be indeedly very largely influenced by the environment.
Maybe, a good example HOW MUCH we are unconsciously influenced by our environment does Derren Brown give, for example here:

He's a master in mind control and I really begin to wonder how much of our choice is really our choice. Whatch as much of him as possible and one begins to understand.

But even if it's a very small percentage, that originally is our own free choice, it will be enough to hold my original argument :wink:
["Our free will reaches out of the realms of g*d.
At least g*d left us this little room for experiencing reality, by creating or decreating it for and by ourselves, so this is reaching into g*d's' limit(s)"]
IMHO, the key is to 'find' and 'use' this tiny space :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (10/20/07 02:58 AM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7539565 - 10/20/07 02:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No matter how you slice it, influenced is not the same as controlled.  We DO use our minds to process incoming data from our environment, we either react or respond, depending upon how much self-awareness and self-control we possess.  This means that WE are in the driver's seat, and not our environment.  :shrug:

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OfflineYosefxp
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Veritas]
    #7540582 - 10/20/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wow, we don't learn with our nervous system? How the hell do we learn then? It is very hard to take you seriously when you claim something as absurd as that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system

Classical conditioning is all about conditioned reflexes. Skinner and behaviourism talk about operant conditioning aswell which so far has proven to be 100% accurate when talking about behaviour. And as far as simplicity goes; yes it is based on simple principles but real behaviour is very complex as you have thousands of contingencies operating on you simultaneously, making human behaviour relatively unpredictable. NOT overly simplistic.

And you really need to do your research and stop believing urban legends. It's called an air crib and people use them all the time, they're a great idea.


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand

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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7540710 - 10/20/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Behaviorism is a psychological movement that can be compared with philosophy of mind. The basic premise of radical behaviorism is that the study of behavior should be a natural science, such as chemistry or physics, without any reference to hypothetical inner states of organisms.




So Skinner denies any significance on the part of consciousness or spirituality? I don't know behaviorism all that well, but it seemed to imply that all our actions are just reactionary and conditioned. This might be true on an animalistic level, but what about our intellect and spirituality (awareness)?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7540736 - 10/20/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"...influenced is not the same as controlled..."
But the gap between influence, manipulation and control is quite small...
I don't want to overlook that gap :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7540772 - 10/20/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I should have distinguished between the CNS and the PNS.  My bad.

As for operant conditioning, it has proven 100% accurate according to whom?  For clarity's sake:

Quote:

A process of behavior modification in which the likelihood of a specific behavior is increased or decreased through positive or negative reinforcement each time the behavior is exhibited, so that the subject comes to associate the pleasure or displeasure of the reinforcement with the behavior.




You're not seriously proposing that all varieties of human behavior are explained by this theory?


Here's Skinner's so-called "air crib"



People use these all the time, hmm?  Boy, there are some weirdos out there.  Putting a human infant into a wood and plexiglass-encased box is inhumane and sick.  It's bad enough that people stick their contact-starved infants in regular cribs & let them "cry it out."  Let me break this down for you:  humans are primates.  Primates need a great deal of contact, particularly during infancy.  To leave a primate in a box which prevents human contact, especially for the extended periods advocated by Skinner, is a great way to plant the seeds of sociopathology.  :thumbdown:

Additionally, an essential part of infant learning is exploration.  If you leave an infant encased in a box, no matter that the glass allows them to view the outside world, they are denied the neurologial stimulation which children receive when they are either carried or allowed to crawl around the home.  No matter how many fancy toys you might put in their enclosed "air crib," it cannot equal the variety of stimulation available in the outside world.

I have studied Skinner and Behaviorism in great detail, as I majored in Psychology.  Skinner's ideas are interesting, and have some application, but they are far from comprehensive or explanatory of all human actions.  His negligence of human cognition leaves a gaping hole in his theory, and this fact is well-accepted in the field of psychology.  Perhaps when you take Psych 102 you'll hear more about it.  :wink:

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OfflineYosefxp
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Veritas]
    #7541353 - 10/21/07 01:16 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes that's exactly what I am proposing :wink:. And all the evidence is pointing in that direction...

As far as the air crib goes...that was the 40's or 50's I believe and everything from then looked scary because it wasn't designed to be aesthecially pleasing like everything is nowadays.

It makes no sense that Skinner would advocate leaving the baby in there for extended periods of time, at the cost of human contact as he believed that almost all our behaviour is learnt, very little is innate, so isolating a baby in a box would almost definately screw it up like you're suggesting. So please show me where Skinner said that as I can't believe it. As a side note one of my lecturers was very good friends with Skinners daughter Deborah and she sounds like a normal, intelligent person. Not a sociopath.

So you studied behaviourism in great detail? Did you study private events? Wikipedia: "Behaviorism (also called learning perspective) is a philosophy of psychology based on the proposition that all things which organisms do — including acting, thinking and feeling—can and should be regarded as behaviors."

So what are you talking about? Even my earlier quote off wikipedias entry on Skinner says "Radical Behaviorism which unlike methodological behaviorism did not require truth by consensus so it could accept private events such as thinking, perception and emotion in its account."

I'm sorry but I know all this at second year so if it was your major then you must have forgotten it all. It was radical behaviourisms acceptance of private events, among other things, that revived behaviourism in the 40's and 50's and is one of the reasons behaviourism still exists today.

And when you say that the field of psychology has that idea of behaviourism then I can see why so many people are against it.


--------------------
Well it's alright riding around in the breeze
Well it's alright if you live the life you please
Well it's alright doing the best you can
Well it's alright as long as you lend a hand

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: "God the Creator" [Re: Yosefxp]
    #7543523 - 10/21/07 04:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think that we shall have to agree to disagree on this subject. My in-depth studies of psychology, which have spanned the past several decades, have made it clear to me that Behaviorism's approach to human cognition is both shallow and incomplete. You are certainly free to revere Skinner's approach, as it may better agree with your POV.

I definitely agree more with the psychological approaches of Albert Ellis (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy), Abraham Maslow (Hierarchy of Needs, Self-Actualization), Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (Flow) and the many brilliant and empathic psychologists who have researched human attachment.

In my opinion, and my experience of caring for young children since 1975, babies need near-constant contact with their primary caregiver during infancy. Any convenience which interrupts this contact is detrimental to optimum emotional development. This includes Skinner's "air crib," regular cribs which are popular in Westernized societies, baby swings, baby seats, play pens, and all other dehumanized structures designed to contain and temporarily distract infants from their innate need for physical contact.

It is not a matter of these items not being "aesthetically pleasing," as you put it, but rather an objection to the parenting philosophy of distancing infants from the embrace they so ardently desire and so deeply require. I would hazard a guess that much of the depression and aggression we see in adults is rooted in that isolation during their infancy. The despair of an infant is a terrible thing to witness, and no one who has seen and felt that heartbreak could advocate for anything but immediate and on-demand holding and nurturing.

We have ventured so far off topic, I cannot see even a vague relation to the original post, so I will close with this. If you have further interest in this discussion, I suggest a thread in Physical & Mental Well-Being.

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