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Offlinejust me
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why's my wbs clumpy?///UPDATE**Did I Fuck Up AGAIN???**
    #7542732 - 10/21/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

-i soaked 24 hours
-rinsed THOROUGHLY
-slow simmered for a little under 1/2hour due to kernels starting to pop
-drained for 1/2hour(with plate over top so it wouldnt dry out)
-PC'ed for 1 1/2hours @ 10psi(seemed like a few more kernels popped)
-let cool, and shook to loosen(am i not supposed to shake with tyvek lids, moisture came thru my polyfil?)
-now they are patiently waiting for my orissa LC to finish

heres a couple pics. got a few busted kernels, and clumps





...now tell me im just being paranoid like i was when i thought my popcorn was too dry, and that everything is exactly how its supposed to be...i just want to make sure everything is good for my monotubs. doing 4 27qt(2 Koh Samui, and 2 Orissa)

one more quick Question, how long can these ready jars of wbs sit before i have to knock them up. i know it wont be more than about 3 more days, i just want my LC to turn clear, cuz its still got quite a bit of honey hue to it, but a huge ball of myc


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--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


Edited by just me (10/25/07 05:47 AM)


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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7542781 - 10/21/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

They look on the wet side, theyll dry out a little, i suggest tumbling the grains around for a couple days before mycelium starts growing. the top gets dry, the bottom will not be as dry, and by mixing you distrib that excess moisture b4 mycel starts growin

next time simmering should only be 15 mins. screw half an our. it seems to make them too wet.


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7542790 - 10/21/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

simmering was an unnecessary step.
the soak is all you needed.

simmering only hurt you.
grains that are burst open some, will stick...
but that's not the big problem.
the big problem is that you loaded the grain into the jars
before it was ready. it was too wet.

read this post by agar:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6505282#6505282


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7542793 - 10/21/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ok, i was thinkin it was a little wet too, but being my first time with wbs, i figured that since they were so small they just were supposed to look wetter than popcorn.

can i shake them with a tyvek top, or will it contamiate?

if i can, ill shake them for the next couple days before i even inoculate!


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7542803 - 10/21/07 01:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

damnit, itd be nice if the doc's bird tek didnt say to simmer for 30 mins.


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7542815 - 10/21/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

well no tek is perfect really.

at some point you need to stop just following directions and
actually start figuring out the science to it all so that you
understand what is happening.

once you do that, success will dramatically increase.
and then you can write your own teks and such.

we all (if we're smart) start in this hobby by simply and blindly
following somebody's path to hopefully achieve their results.
but that should only be the first phase of it all. after you have
your own success with others methods, you should branch out
on your own and start to really learn how it all works.


--------------------



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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: monstermitch]
    #7542831 - 10/21/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

itd help if there were stickies talking about basic requirements for each kind of growing method, or something. no noobie is gonna know not to simmer. experienced people know it. yet teks get posted as if they are credible and they contain wrong info on BASIC things. that's the frustrating part. this site doesn't exactly make it easy for the noob to understand everything in an organized fashion. The FAQs suck and the teks are teks so you just have to sift through them and weed out the basic concepts of cultivating. LOL!


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7542833 - 10/21/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ok, well next time ill do 15 minutes, i ended it a little early bcuz i noticed it was getting to wet, and popping, but i shouldve ended it sooner. it says in docs that you should quit when 5% are popped and i have fal less popped than 5%...so....oh well

can i shake with tyvek on the first layer, lid with a polyfil hole second layer, ring, then coffee filters???


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7542850 - 10/21/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

oops, ok, next time i wont simmer, and then i wont have a buncha popped seeds or too much moisture. is there any way, other than shaking the jars for the next couple days to even the moisture out, or eliminate it some?


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7542857 - 10/21/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

VisionsToReality said:
itd help if there were stickies talking about basic requirements for each kind of growing method, or something. no noobie is gonna know not to simmer. experienced people know it. yet teks get posted as if they are credible and they contain wrong info on BASIC things. that's the frustrating part. this site doesn't exactly make it easy for the noob to understand everything in an organized fashion. The FAQs suck and the teks are teks so you just have to sift through them and weed out the basic concepts of cultivating. LOL!




yup...
but such is life here at the shroomery.
so what can you do?
do something about it, like I'm very slowly doing.

you have a journal. use it.
find all of the best teks, all of the methods that work best and
pick them all apart. experiment with them all, doing things over
and over again until you find what works best, what doesn't,
what's needed and what is not needed.
then make your own methods or teks or whatever showing how
you have found to be the best way to do something.

it may take forever, but your journal could be the one and only
place newcomers would ever have to go to get correct information.

that's the only fix I can think of.

Quote:

just me said:
oops, ok, next time i wont simmer, and then i wont have a buncha popped seeds or too much moisture. is there any way, other than shaking the jars for the next couple days to even the moisture out, or eliminate it some?




not really.
personally I'd simply dump them out and start over.
or let them dry out in the jar... but that's hit or miss.
I'd just start over.


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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: monstermitch]
    #7542886 - 10/21/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

they really may dry out i'd vote. worth seeing if they do rather than the pain in the a s s of refilling


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7542928 - 10/21/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

VisionsToReality said:
they really may dry out i'd vote. worth seeing if they do rather than the pain in the a s s of refilling




you're right, they'll dry out.
but how much?

how will you know for certain when they'll dry to the optimal point?
there's no sure-fire way to do it with the grains locked inside
of the jar.
you need to actually touch the grains to test their surface
water content accurately.

making jars is easy.
it'll take about a day.

waiting for them to dry out could take a week or more.

so to each his own... but the better choice in the long run
I would have to say is starting over.


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: monstermitch]
    #7543908 - 10/21/07 06:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

FUCK! i think i will start over, every time i shake them, the polyfil gets moist, and thats even thru the tyvek, so it must be really moist in there.

its only 4 jars, ill buy some wbs tomorrow i suppose, i really wanted to go hunting tomorrow tho! fuck

i did an exp. tho, a 5th jar wasnt pressure cooked(no room in PC) and i knocked it up with 3-4cc of koh samui, just gonna see what happens with it, maybe use it for an outside grow.

but i guess my final verdict is dump em. what do i need to do to thouroughly clean my jars? ive just been washing them, and then sraying inside and out with 70% alcohol


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7543928 - 10/21/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yeah yours sounds verrry moist. =(


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7543942 - 10/21/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

=( indeed, ill keep yall posted on my new batch

-so try this?

soak 24hours
rinse thouroughly
PC(is 1 1/2 hours too long, my PC only goes to 10 psi, but it seemed like the PC made more kernels pop)


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7543957 - 10/21/07 06:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

you can just clean them out with soap and water, nothing
fancy is needed.
the pressure cooker does all of the sterilizing that you'll need.


the grains in that 5th jar will grow.
they'll germinate, sprout and grow. You'll have a jar full of grassy
type growth.


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: monstermitch]
    #7546062 - 10/22/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ok, my Q still needs an answer please.

is having a tyvek layer immediate to the grain going to contam when i shake the jars? the reason i ask, is because grains stick to it and moisture does to.


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Invisibleshroomerite
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7546171 - 10/22/07 09:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well I use tyvek on all my grain jars. No polyfill. I think were you went wrong was not so much the simmer but leaving the lid on the strainer so they wouldnt dry out. I soak for about 48 hours then I boil for 10 minutes ONLY. What this does for me is allow grains to heat up and when I strain them the steam rises off of them and dries the grain. You want all the moisture to be held inside the grain only. After soak and simmer (10Minutes ONLY), you want to strain the grain until it is dry to the tuoch. Grains should be plump with moisture without poping. A few popped ones wont hurt. You want the grain to be dry to the touch when you load it into the jars and PC. If you pick up the grain with your hand and dropp it. There should be only one or two kernels left stuc to your hand. This is perfect to load. Good Luck.


--------------------
  "For best results, learn to work with nature rather than against it. Mycelium has an amazing ability to cope with less than optimal conditions, and will often fruit when a grower does everything wrong. However, do everything right and watch your performance go through the roof." RR



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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7546341 - 10/22/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

just me said:
ok, my Q still needs an answer please.

is having a tyvek layer immediate to the grain going to contam when i shake the jars? the reason i ask, is because grains stick to it and moisture does to.




anytime your filter material gets wet it's very, very bad.
so yes, that could easily contaminate.

the best way to make grain jars in my opinion is to use a regular
metal lid and drill several (10 or so) very, very small holes in it.
not big enough for grain to get through, just air.
put the lid on top of the jar.
if you want, for ease, build an inoculation port into the center of
the lid.
anyway, put it on the jar and cover the lid with tyvek or a filter
disc. the lid will let air through for gas exchange, but not allow
the grain to stick to the tyvek wetting it.

a wet filter is simply a wick for contamination to enter.


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: monstermitch]
    #7546484 - 10/22/07 11:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

never had grain so wet that it would wet the tyvek and have only ever used it between lid and jar.
FWIW i burn two holes in a plastic lid glue a self healing patch over one and poli-fill the other.

as for soaking,never done it>
wash /rinse,bring up to 160f and pasteurize for ~ 45 min
(until the wheat grains feel/look like bread dough when rubbed between your fingers)

rinse until clear.
strain for a few min and then dump a jar load into a roasting tin and blow-dry (hair-drier)until you get this>
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6505282#6505282
WBS/GRAIN, a simple test, BEFORE you load jars & PC. - Mushroom Cultivation - Shroomery Message Board

dust the top with gypsum (i use an old pepper shaker)and mix in.

done four jars yesterday.
started 11.25AM nocked up 5.15PM.


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule


Edited by deucedbi9 (10/22/07 01:19 PM)


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InvisibleThis guy
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: deucedbi9]
    #7546655 - 10/22/07 12:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i dont know about you guys. but when this guy simmers... even for 5 min. all the kernels burst.. its definately not necessary to simmer. if anything.. if u'r that impatient, boil the water first..take it off heat.. then use that hot water to initiate the soaking phase. they wont burst. but you should still soak for at least 12 hours. and rinse thoroughly.

refer to agars posts. and even without simmering.. you should allow to dry for 30 min.. flipping around the seeds in the strainer every 10 or so min to evenly dry them (on the outside)


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: deucedbi9]
    #7549785 - 10/23/07 01:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ok, general consensus seems to be soak and no simmer. and it seems like soak for more than 24 hours is the way to go since im not simmering. so i think ill go about anywhere from 36-48 hour soak.

now my PC is only 10 psi, how long should i PC?

and ill drain longer, and actually do a moisture test

all sound ok?


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7549900 - 10/23/07 03:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

the consensus is to soak for at least 24 hours.
the only reason i don't is that the first time i used wbs was really just to get a feel for it.
i decided it looked ok (total newb :rolleyes:) and might as well throw caution to the wind and innoc with one of the two lc's i had in the fridge.
to my surprise 4 days later there was little patches of myc growth all through the jars,another 3 and they were ready to shake and went on to completion 3/4 days later.
so figured if it works why change.

as for your 10psi cooker i think an extra 15/20 mins (on top of the usual 90 would be ample.
and definitely the moisture test agar posted (the link i gave in last post) is a good way to go.
hope it works out this time.

what i don't get is...WTF happened to the endospores !


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: deucedbi9]
    #7549994 - 10/23/07 05:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

what i don't get is...WTF happened to the endospores !



what do you mean? is this pertaining to my situation?

i filled my wbs up this morining for soaking, plan on 36 hours, given im home at the right time, then PC'ing for 2 hours @ 10psi

i also have some popcorn getting VERY colonized, when do i shake? is it necessary? take a look, this is both sides of one jar







and heres a lil myco porn to keep this thread so lively! praise accepted:grin:




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--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: just me]
    #7550056 - 10/23/07 06:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

the reason for the long soak,apart from hydrating the grain,is to germinate the endospores so that they are more susceptible to the heat,giving us a "window of opportunity" to beat the bacteria and enable our myc to win the race to colonize the grain.
i was just stating that i haven't found it necessary,and throwing the question out there for any-one who may have an answer...
is the need for the soak being overstated?

your jars are looking good and ready to shake,it redistributes the colonized grain and helps to speed up completion.


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: deucedbi9]
    #7550073 - 10/23/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The need to soak is not overstated. Some batches of grains have many more endospores than others. It also matters the region the grains were grown in. Many factors are involved, but soaking makes sure they're taken care of. If you have a grain supply that works fine without a soak, then don't bother soaking.

The other reason for soaking first is to slowly hydrate the grains so they don't burst. Burst kernels release starch and other goo that will slow down colonization.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinewutang
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7550231 - 10/23/07 08:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i like to simmer, simmer only!! boiling it highly increases the chances of popped kernals. simmering makes me confident that most of the germinated endospores
will die while simmering and Pcing

yeah too wet buddy
WHAT i do is i towel dry them cause i fucking hate waiting for it to drain
after they are done load em up and cook
make sure the kernals are dry, because innoculating them will add some moisture
to the jars

GL


--------------------
:peyotespectrum:    :sanpedro: :rainbowdrink: :tripping:


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? ///**Did I Fuck Up AGAIN??** [Re: wutang]
    #7558041 - 10/25/07 05:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

alright, second batch of WBS, this one was w/out simmering. used the exact same amount of grain, and came up 1 quart completely short, and then about a pint short on each jar individually(compare pics from original post)



procedure:
-i drained for over an hour, with towell drying also(did the spoon and hand test)
-pc'ed for 2 hours @ 10 psi
-let sit over night

problem:
-it smelled like my grains were cooking when i pc'ed
-the grains are darker than my other batch(after Pc'ing)
-after pc'ing, i shook, and water still came thru my tyvek, and polyfil, and wet my coffee filters
-a little water at the bottom of jars, but if i shake vigorously, it gets my tyvek too wet

bright side:
-at least theyre not busted and clumpy this time:tongue:

so what should i do?


--------------------

--------------------------------------------------

-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? ///**Did I Fuck Up AGAIN??** [Re: just me]
    #7558044 - 10/25/07 05:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

btw, is it possible that my PC is boiling too much and splashing water into my grains?
i covered tightly with foil(only one layer)and only let the water come about an 1"-1 1/2" up the jars, so that by the time the PC was done, the water was almost level with the bottoms of the jars.

cuz i had them beeeches dry...or at least had them to spec


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Offlinewutang
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? ///**Did I Fuck Up AGAIN??** [Re: just me]
    #7558144 - 10/25/07 06:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

its best to rather have jars on the dry side rather than wet
dryness can be taken care of when innoculatiing
you only want the grains damp with spore solution
i dont mind the smell of cooked grains...


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Offlinejust me
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Re: why's my wbs clumpy? ///**Did I Fuck Up AGAIN??** [Re: wutang]
    #7558218 - 10/25/07 07:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, i dont mind it at all, i just thought maybe i was cooking them instead of sterilizing them.

do they seem dry?

there is a tiny bit of water on the bottom, like if i tilt the jars for a few seconds, the water will slowly gather forming a small pool in the bottom tilted part

is that lil fat gangster you Wu? i think id have to punch you if i saw you


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-pEaCeLoVeGoDbLeSs-

"The Downfall of Mankind; is Believing He Has Limitations."


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Offlinewutang
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Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: why's my wbs clumpy? ///**Did I Fuck Up AGAIN??** [Re: just me]
    #7558224 - 10/25/07 07:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ahahah fuck no
but i thought he looked fat and dumb and funny
theres a picture of him somewhere here..
lol..

shake the :goodluck:
hell out of your jar, i like to spins it clockwise in my hand making the grains spin around and then shake it all around, this will distribute all the wetness
when your ready just shoot it with 2cc
thats exactly what mine look like and i was worried that its too dry
nope it was perfect..


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