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BrAiN
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how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS
#7542351 - 10/21/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was listening to a previously linked interview with Ron Paul on CSPAN and he mentioned we need to eventually get rid of the IRS and repeal the 16th amendment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
This is the amendment that allows the fed gov't to levy taxes on income.. ratified in 1913.
If we didn't have taxes before 1913.. how did the gov't make $ for federal services such as tthe military?
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pabloescabar
Stranger thanyou



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7542379 - 10/21/07 11:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think the government had a near as much power back then so they didn't need all our money. 1913 huh I wonder what world event we got involved in during that era that needed alot of money?
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xpl0de
ḆËŦŦЯ_őƑ_Ŧwo ƹvïlz




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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: pabloescabar]
#7542431 - 10/21/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: xpl0de]
#7542493 - 10/21/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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More pie in the sky nonsense. He continues to marginalize himself by living in sky castles.
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: pabloescabar]
#7542530 - 10/21/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
pabloescabar said: I don't think the government had a near as much power back then so they didn't need all our money. 1913 huh I wonder what world event we got involved in during that era that needed alot of money?
What are you implying?
That there was no war before the evil IRS came into being?
Ref: Spanish American War, Civil War, Mexican War, Tripolitan War, War of 1812, etc etc.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7542601 - 10/21/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think we should get back to the barter system. Grow vegetables and whatnot in our backyards and trade with neighbors. Improve funding to farms. Not only will your health be better off, but so will your pocketbooks. Not to mention improved neighborly relations.
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peter19
peter19
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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: WScott]
#7542673 - 10/21/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i think they printed there own money(gov). im not sure but i think JFK wanted to abolish the IRS or fedral reserve and look what happened to him. im not a 100% on that though.
-------------------- “All Truth Goes Through Three Stages. First, it is ridiculed. Then, it is violently opposed. Finally, it is accepted as self-evident.” - Arthur Schopenhauer
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: peter19]
#7542988 - 10/21/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, they just printed money whenever they needed to pay someone off.

Christ, do a little research.
The 16th amendment is the one that levies an INCOME tax. There are 1000 other taxes that the Federal Government have been able to turn to in order to finance things. Sales Tax, Farm Tax, Gas Tax, Excise Tax, Tariffs, Property Tax, etc etc etc.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Maverick
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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7543443 - 10/21/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Taxes have been around since the beginning. Importation taxes and such. Personal taxes Have been around too.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7543663 - 10/21/07 05:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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originally it existed on alcohol, carriage, sugar and bacco taxes, predominately.
!812 sales taxes were implemented to fund the war with Brittian, only on luxury items though. Whatever that means, in 1817 after the war, congress removed all internal taxes and the government existed on tarriffs on imports.\
remember most govrnment was local then, as it should be now and the intentions of the fathers of america.
The first effort at income tax came in 1861, the civil war, it was a 3 percent tax on all who earned between 600 and 10,000 a year. If you made more than 10 g's it went to 5 and you were slapped with an inheritance tax. Tgis was all Union Specific, but don't get it twisted the Southerners also employed there own income taxes.
1872, the war was over and the tax was scourged, the seeds had however been planted and never again would congress relent of the visions of permanent income tax.
Feb 12, 1913, another day of infamy.
-------------------- Asshole
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7543698 - 10/21/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think it was 1943 when withholding was implemented, you no longer wrote your own checks, then government took it straight from your pay checks.
Thanks to a Disney Government Collaboration promising a "forgiving" of all taxes owed in 42 the people ate it up.
The next great evolution came in 82 when congress voted to include dividends and other sources of income susceptible to the withholding laws.
My dates may be off, its been a long time since I have had to call upon these little tidbits of tax law.
-------------------- Asshole
Edited by nakors_junk_bag (10/21/07 05:26 PM)
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: pabloescabar]
#7544064 - 10/21/07 07:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
pabloescabar said: I don't think the government had a near as much power back then so they didn't need all our money. 1913 huh I wonder what world event we got involved in during that era that needed alot of money?
We didn't get into WWI until 1917.
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pabloescabar
Stranger thanyou



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7544387 - 10/21/07 08:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Quote:
pabloescabar said: I don't think the government had a near as much power back then so they didn't need all our money. 1913 huh I wonder what world event we got involved in during that era that needed alot of money?
What are you implying?
That there was no war before the evil IRS came into being?
Ref: Spanish American War, Civil War, Mexican War, Tripolitan War, War of 1812, etc etc.
I'm saying that once the feds get more money they can do alot more, like wage or join wars that aren't very necessary.
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pabloescabar
Stranger thanyou



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7544395 - 10/21/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said:
Quote:
pabloescabar said: I don't think the government had a near as much power back then so they didn't need all our money. 1913 huh I wonder what world event we got involved in during that era that needed alot of money?
We didn't get into WWI until 1917.
Look up the definition for era. Last I checked things that happen 4 years apart are still in the same era
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BrAiN
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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: pabloescabar]
#7544443 - 10/21/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You were implying that the amendment was used to raise funds for a way though
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7545001 - 10/21/07 10:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I believe I read somewhere that only 30% of the government's income is derived from the personal income tax.
Part of Ron Paul's argument is that you can repeal it altogether if you cut government spending by reducing the *imperialistic* footprint of America overseas and dismantle some really pointless government agencies, returning power back to the states.
I reckon the government makes money off business taxes, tariffs...shucks what else...?
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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Seuss
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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: afoaf]
#7545758 - 10/22/07 04:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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> shucks what else...?
illegal drugs.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: afoaf]
#7545920 - 10/22/07 07:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ahh well.. shit.. I like the idea.. that's 30% more of my income that I get to keep.
From now on when ppl ask why I support ROn Paul.. instead of telling them that it's because he wants to save America $ by bringing all the troops home... I'm just going to tell them that he wants to eventually get rid of income taxes. :P
I mean shit..... If the dollar were stronger maybe they could make up the income by just selling more bonds.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: Seuss]
#7545954 - 10/22/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is it possible that America could make more if drugs were legal then they make while they are illegal?
I mean there would be huge benefits, sells taxes, income taxes for all the jobs created. you know, stuff like that?
-------------------- Asshole
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trippindad82
Trusted Cultivator of Trich



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7546066 - 10/22/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
nakors_junk_bag said: Is it possible that America could make more if drugs were legal then they make while they are illegal?
I mean there would be huge benefits, sells taxes, income taxes for all the jobs created. you know, stuff like that?
Maybe, maybe not. The way that I see it is that as long as shit is illegal, prices will be more elevated than if it's legal. If pot was legal I would have a basement full of it, as well as many other people I know. Not that I would sell any of it, as it would be all for personal use.
-------------------- Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to blind person who has never seen a horse. ^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^ --------------------------------------
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: trippindad82]
#7546224 - 10/22/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm doubting that... at least for some drugs. The base price might be cheaper, but the gov't will make up the rest in taxes, If you think about supply and demand... the avg price for an 1/8th of dank is about 50 bucks. That's the current equillibrium. That means people right now are willing to pay that much for the dealers to make enough of a profit and be happy. Companies are going to jack up their prices as much as they consumers are willing to pay. When they get to the point where the higher cost causes profits to fall.. there's your equilibrium.. I bet an 1/8th of the diggidy dank on the open legal market probably wouldnt be much less than $40.
The gov't and companies are both going to KNOW that people are willing to pay 50 bucks so one way or another, they're going to jack the price as much as they can. Whether it's the company charging that much or if it's through taxes. Shit look at NY and DC. A few years ago in DC, clove cigarettes bad a base price of about 3 bucks from the retailers. After taxes they costed 12 DOLLARS a pack! They're down to about 8 now. In California they're only about 4.50
True, people could probably grow their own for much cheaper... but if it were legalized, the gov't would probably put some kind of regulation on growing your own.
I'm willing to bet, if legallized, the cost of an 1/8th would be about 25 dollars for the good stuff.. and 25 dollars MORE in taxes. And people would definately be lining up to buy it still.
So yea... you guys are right.. legallizing drugs would make a SHIT TON of money for the government... Of course.. we'd probably have a lot more spending in addiction treatment....
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7547202 - 10/22/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I mean you really can't make your own whiskey in most states. So, it might be the same.
Think abiut all those sacks the gov could tax, the baggies they could tax and the workers they could tax. It would be a huge boon to us all, plus all the tarriffs they could impose on coke importers, weed importers and opiate importers.
-------------------- Asshole
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7547246 - 10/22/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm half and half when it comes to legalizing hard drugs like smack and coke.
I think eventually it needs to be legal, but a really fast transition would be detrimental. I think we need to FIRST spend less time on incarceration of users and spend the money we would have wasted on sending them to jail to see how effective rehab treatment REALLY can be. THOSE drugs maybe we should tax the SHIT out of... because we're REALLY going to need the money for the health problems. Then again... I think the harder the drug.. the MORE of the piece of the % pie of crime is caused by the lifestyle and users commiting crimes to get the money. Jacking up the taxes on hard drugs are going to make the ahrdcore addicts even more desperate.
When we get a better handle on treating the health/social problems caused by the hard drugs that cause REAL addiction... then maybe start legalizing it.
Weed though? Shit.... it's just downright retarded that it's illegal.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7547277 - 10/22/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yeah, but when you get the money above table it's hard to funnel it to black ops, ya heard?!
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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BrAiN
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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: afoaf]
#7547286 - 10/22/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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true true...
I just think those people are totally blind who think that if we outright legalize smack with no transition, that there won't be a serious PROBLEM.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7547364 - 10/22/07 03:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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who knows, I think legalizing them may reduce the price per unit of measurement thus enabling them to obtained easier making it safer for all involved.
-------------------- Asshole
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7547419 - 10/22/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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True... whether or not its not or less expensive.. i just think legalizing it (initially at least) would cause MORE people to try it.
Sure the % of junkies that have major problems with it might go down... but 3% of 5 million people is still more than 5% of 50,000. Ya know?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7547499 - 10/22/07 04:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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IMO Property Tax is the most EVIL of all the Taxes....
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: lonestar2004]
#7547642 - 10/22/07 04:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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especially in california
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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ledfut
I once jerkedoff w/ bothhands


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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7547724 - 10/22/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrAiN said: True... whether or not its not or less expensive.. i just think legalizing it (initially at least) would cause MORE people to try it.
Sure the % of junkies that have major problems with it might go down... but 3% of 5 million people is still more than 5% of 50,000. Ya know?
that's crap, i have literally put heroin in the hands of several people and said, if you want you can have some. unless they had already done it in the past, they refused.
all legalizing will do is make it so that junkies will be able to get their fix safely and not have to worry about destroying their lives because of the law.
are there health concerns, of course, but that's where education comes in. maybe if we actually educated our children (i don't think it should be brought up until high school, D.A.R.E. only gets them young so they don't ask questions) instead of teaching them fear people would make better decisions.
after legalization crackheads will be looked at as a useful part of the community because they will stay up all night and work their asses off so they can get more crack.
-------------------- May our only occupation be not having a job. May the only cocktails that we make be molitov. -Johnny Hobo and the Freight Trains
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: ledfut]
#7547809 - 10/22/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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whatever.... if you take smack out of the streets where u have to know someone and stick it in the stores.. more people are going to have access to it and more ppl are going to try it
PERIOD
Maybe we're thinking of different ideas. I'm thinking if it's legalized then it's going to be sold out in the open in SHOPS.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7547834 - 10/22/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I hope so.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7547847 - 10/22/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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first of all, this tangent really has no place in this thread.
second of all, if you'd bother to look at some of the figures you'd find that in countries like the netherlands actually have a lower rate of drug usage among their population.
so, sure, you can fall back on the hysterical housewife argument that legalization automatically means all our babies are going to be buying drugs at the market or you can look at how decriminalization and safe injection sites have actually played out in the real world.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: afoaf]
#7547989 - 10/22/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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What topic here HASN'T gone tangent?
I think comparing social issues in the Netherlands and America is like comparing apples to orange. I think America's youth is just too immature compared to many other countries.
Call me a pessimist, but I think America is just full of too many stupid kids who can't handle the responsibly such as legal heroin... at least making it legal just out of no where...
Like I said.. I'm ALL for making it legal over time.. studying the effects. I think it's plain irresponsible to assume it'll work over just because "The Netherlands" can handle it and to make it legal based solely on how some other country works... a country thousands of miles away with a much tiner population, a different culture that has developed different over thousands of years.
I think if you DECRIMINALIZE it first and just make it a non jailable offense wold be a great start...
It's not some hysterical housewife argument to think that if someone is exposed to something EVERYDAY in the counter of the local supermarket they're more likely to try it than if a tiny tiny percentage of their peers offers makes it available to them.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: BrAiN]
#7548011 - 10/22/07 05:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I stopped reading after:
"I think comparing social issues in the Netherlands and America is like comparing apples to orange. I think America's youth is just too immature compared to many other countries."
because you're going to base this on subjectivity instead of objectivity.
you're looking at short term problems and using that as a premise to disregard something that has tremendous long term benefits.
start a new thread if you want to opine about legalization. this one is about how the US got $$$ before the IRS.
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: how did the U.S. get $ before the IRS [Re: afoaf]
#7548203 - 10/22/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I'm the one who STARTED this thread. let me ask myself if I don't mind how off topic we've gotten? Hmm. hope... I apparently I don't.
And apparently you're incapable of reading past 2 sentences in any of my posts. For the millions FRIGGIN TIME... YES! I think heroin should be legal but I think we need to EASE ourselves into it. I think it would be way too chaotic to just suddenly start selling smack in stores tommorrow. Especially since the gov't has done nothing but using the "scared straight" tactic to prevent people from using it. At least decriminalize it and spend more time educating people on it before you outright make it legal to buy in a store.
And how is my argument any worse than your argument about how we should legalize it just because it works in some other country.. a country that has developed over the past thousands of years under a completely different culture?
If any scientist conducted a scientific experiment of ANY KIND and changed one VERY IMPORTANT VARIABLE, he would be scoffed at to assume that the results would be just the same and to implement a strategy based on his assumption without even trying to study the effects of the different variable on the experiment.
Edited by BrAiN (10/22/07 06:39 PM)
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