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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Letter For Ron Paul's Network
    #7542201 - 10/21/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I was doing some thinking today after reading the active thread concerning Ron Paul gaining more attention in the media, and I decided to make use of the fact that I joined a meetup group of his awhile back by taking some time to write some thoughts and propose some ideas for the organization to consider. Here it is:

Quote:


I was thinking today after reading an article about Ron Paul catching more attention in the mainstream media. I've also been reading recently how the Christian conservative base is very undecided over who they should support, including speculation that they would move to a third party candidate, possibly, or perhaps even to a Democratic candidate. On top of this, I have also been hearing a lot of sentiments in political discussion forums that people feel that, if Ron Paul was nominated in the primaries, Hillary Clinton wouldn't stand a chance, which is a reassuring thought to consider. :smile:

I think what draws a lot of people to Ron Paul, obviously, is his idealogical foundation - the simple fact that he employs critical thought, and represents reason. Most politicians do not base their campaign on substance and relation to the reality of the situation that America actually is in, and proposes realistic, attainable measures by which America can be governed in order to ensure our safety, well-being, and prosperity. I think that the fact that Ron Paul actually expresses a substantiated perspective on the reality of America and our planet, and has worthy ideas to consider as to how he would lead us forward, in a time where politicians look for ways to manipulate the American people in order to serve self-interest of themselves and of corporations (who only have interest in profit, instead of ensuring the sovereignty and prosperity of all human beings), is encouraging a lot of citizens who have grown apathetic, due to not being represented by their representatives, to take interest and to become active in no longer evading our personal responsibility to participate in our government.

I think a crucial necessity of Ron Paul's campaign, considering the current political climate, is to start to focus as well on catering to the powerful religious right. I think Ron Paul is certainly, by far, the most suitable candidate to represent them, being a pro-life, Christian obstetrician and all. Ron Paul has terrific presence on an idealogical level, but perhaps a focus on presenting him to the religious right as their best choice would really serve to transform Ron Paul's bid into the next stage - winning the Republican primary.

I am personally very frightened by the notion of Hillary Clinton or Rudy Gilulani as president. I am frightened by the idea that we would take military action in Iran, and I am genuinely frightened by Rudy Gilulani's likely fascism, as well as Hillary's probability of bankrupting this country. What I personally find most appealing about Ron Paul is that he clearly excelled in civics class, and lives and breathes the ideals that individuals like Thomas Jefferson founded this country upon. Ron Paul has conceptualized the true, ideal nature of the American government, as well as our human rights to be sovereign and free. I think this is a very rare opportunity that an ideal can be attained and represented in the actuality of reality - I think that if enough effort is focused into ensuring Ron Paul is nominated as the Republican candidate, especially through now appealing to the religious right, unifying the Republican party, enough momentum will be achieved and Ron Paul's clear understanding of reality and how to lead to better the reality of the United States of America, as well as this planet, through changing the ways we interact globally, will dissolve Hillary's illusion and falsehoods.

I personally have been very interested in furthering Ron Paul's cause, but my personal living situation recently has prevented me from doing so. I look forward to contributing financially, as well as other means of promotion, but I figured that I could contribute my ideas to the movement, if they will help in any way to ensure that America is saved from a bleak and dismal future. I work in retail and am used to a corporate environment in which people are given facilities with which ideas and concerns can be sent further up within the organization, and I'm hoping that Ron Paul's network operates in a similar manner. :smile:

Have a good day, everyone. :smile:







I am hoping that it is carried up and that it influences his campaign for the better in any small way. :wink:


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7542251 - 10/21/07 10:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So you would have him whore himself to the heinous Christian Right just to achieve his and your ends? Have you NO principles? Would you be willing to end personal choice for millions of women to have an important medical procedure just so you can smoke a pipe on the street. Even though you can pretty much get as high as you want anyway. Every woman's death from a backroom abortion should be on your head.

I'm kind of being facetious, but you're just as bad as the people who want to reinstate the draft because they think it will cause more protests. I understand that many of my candidates pander to these god bothering putzes. The difference between me and you is that I wish they would stop doing it. You are encouraging it. Faust?

The only thing keeping this guy on any radar screen at all is the gang of sophomoric male masturbaters (I mean Constitutional Scholars) with too much time on their hands and unfettered access to the internet. And bongs. Lots of bongs. The same gang that gave Howard Dean delusions in 2004.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7542329 - 10/21/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You misunderstand me. In fact, on my way back from getting some food and some delicious ice cream, I thought that, while it is too late to add it to my email, I thought to post in here why I think he's right for them, or what he should do to appeal to them, or start some discussion by asking what others think on those lines of thought. :wink:

I'm not proposing that he whores himself out - I am simply stating that he should present himself to them as their candidate, because he is their candidate. I didn't begin to make suggestions as to how he should act upon the matter, or what kinds of ideas he should use in that process, because I'm not his campaign staff and I'm not him, and I'm not the individuals who decide how to invest money in his campaign.

I think it should be pretty clear, first off, with my letter as substantiation, that I am not interested in Ron Paul because of his stance on the War on Drugs - much moreso why he has the stance that he does. My letter is substantiation enough as to why he appeals to me.

Now, regarding abortion, I do not think that abortion should be illegalized - I think it should be prevented. Ron Paul would not work towards the illegalization of abortion on the federal level - in fact, I would imagine that his stance would be to encourage the states to follow means by which prevention of unwanted births, that abortion is a regrettable act that we might have the right to, but that it should be prevented.

I think this idea is supported by his stance on the War on Drugs, in fact. I don't think he encourages drug usage, and I'm sure that he considers drug usage to be a medical problem, encouraging treatment. However, he respects the rights of individuals - their sovereignity and liberty.

The simple fact is that, as much as I do not prefer the existance of religion, or the manners in which it is organized, religion exists, and the religious right exists. If the Republican party has any chance of winning this election, it is to be unified, and I see Ron Paul as being the only candidate capable of this, as well as capable of taking down Hillary Clinton. In fact, I think Ron Paul would work to instill common sense and tolerance of other people's choices within these people, instead of just shearing them. :smirk:

Furthermore, your conceptualization of Ron Paul's supporters is horribly ignorant. Check out this video, it has a cool song by Tool even. :headbang: :tripping:



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7542476 - 10/21/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Abortion should be prevented? Not illegal, but "prevented"?

Thats even more wishy-washy that someone who wants to ban it. What are you going to do? Just put up a bunch of red tape so anyone who has an abortion has to fill out seven papers in triplicate before she can see the doctor?

So you think its wrong enough that people shouldn't have them, but if they do, they should at least have to work for one? What the fuck is that?

And furthermore, Why should abortion be "prevented"?

Christ, its a parasitic clump of fucking cells with no capability for thought or any kind of existence outside of the controlled environment of the womb. If its "Alive" or a fucking "Baby", lets pull it out and see how long it survives.

Who the fuck are you to tell a woman that she has to carry it around for 9 months while it feeds off of her?

What gives you that right?

Fuck off and die with your chavunistic bullshit.

Pro-Lifers piss me off.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7542482 - 10/21/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't do videos.

Whether you support illegalization of abortion or not is irrelevant to the fact that if he gets his way by removing it from Constitutional consideration because of it's flimsy framework on a fabricated right to privacy, a whole lot of states WILL make it illegal. And his anti drug war stance is laudatory but quixotic, the legislature and your fellow citizens will never go for it. Medical marijuana maybe. Not a real big issue for me and a sop to personal liberty.

I refer to sophomores of all ages. I understand there is an anti-establishment appeal but it never gets elected above the craziest of Congressional district level. NEVER. Well, except for Jesse Ventura. And that other Paulist thread, with the title about MSM acceptance? I searched and searched but I saw nothing in the article to show that. Just the usual prison planet blahblah.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7542694 - 10/21/07 12:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't do videos.

Whether you support illegalization of abortion or not is irrelevant to the fact that if he gets his way by removing it from Constitutional consideration because of it's flimsy framework on a fabricated right to privacy, a whole lot of states WILL make it illegal.




They will make it illegal, if the citizens of that state are in favor of illegalizing it. Clearly, some states will, and some states won't. This is perfectly within their rights, if their State Constitution allows it.

This encourages that people are more represented, by bringing the centralization of power closer to themselves. This gives Americans as a whole more opportunity to have their interests as indiviuals represented, as they are free to move to another state, coupled with the fact that the federal government would be more free to protect the Constitutional rights of all Americans in every state, as well as preventing any state from infringing on the rights of any other state or citizens.

Quote:


  And his anti drug war stance is laudatory but quixotic




Elaborate.

Quote:


Just the usual prison planet blahblah.




Prison Planet was simply hosting the article, simply representing that the individual who posted the story prefers to access their news through that filter. :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7542794 - 10/21/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Thats even more wishy-washy that someone who wants to ban it.




No it isn't - you simply haven't asked for elaboration on what I meant. If you are seeking a discussion, and seek to propose your own views as more accurately representing reality than my own, then it would be more effective to ask questions, in order to learn.

Prevention, as in, promoting education. Diverting federal funds out of federal programs and agencies into the states, for them to have the educational budget to help grow human beings into being mature, rational individuals.

Quote:


  What are you going to do? Just put up a bunch of red tape so anyone who has an abortion has to fill out seven papers in triplicate before she can see the doctor?




Of course not, such a bureauracy would be a waste of taxpayer money, of my time and energy. Promoting opportunities so that human beings do not create need for abortion in the first place, through education, subsquently encouraging preferential behavior.

Quote:


So you think its wrong enough that people shouldn't have them, but if they do, they should at least have to work for one?  What the fuck is that?




No, I don't think that. Well, beyond the fact that, in order to have the service performed, they must provide financial compensation to the pratictioner, thus requiring that they have a means of producing funds with which to pay it - i.e., work. :smirk:

Quote:


And furthermore, Why should abortion be "prevented"?




Its like letting your hand develop gangrene and then seeking treatment for it. Having a child is a biological process, and it isn't reasonable to initiate a biological process, to simply terminate it. If you choose to begin or provide for a life process, it should logically conclude that you assume responsibility for ensuring the well-being and success of that process.

Its a waste of life energy that is easily prevented by not initiating the process.

Quote:


Christ, its a parasitic clump of fucking cells with no capability for thought or any kind of existence outside of the controlled environment of the womb.  If its "Alive" or a fucking "Baby", lets pull it out and see how long it survives.




Babies that have not developed to the point of birth are not intended to be pulled out of the womb in order to see how long it survives. That isn't our intention as human beings that exists within our evolved design. The form and function of a baby developing inside of a woman is for the baby to be born as a human being. If you wish to subtract the inherent nature of a biological process by deciding to not count truth as truth through reductionism, then you negate our existance as human beings.

Quote:


Who the fuck are you to tell a woman that she has to carry it around for 9 months while it feeds off of her?




It is a biological process that was initiated by two human beings. That is a responsibility. Human beings should be aware of the consequences and nature of their actions, and of the nature of reality. If both human beings didn't consciously, or not so consciously (:smirk:) choose to begin a biological process that produces another human being, then I see an exception. Otherwise, I see only unfortunate waste - certainly the right of any individual, as it is their biological process, but one that would have been prevented, alleviated with the utiliziation of insight, with the proliferation of critical thinking and reason, through education.

Quote:


What gives you that right?




Nothing. I haven't claimed the existance or acted under the pretense of such a right. Perhaps you are responding to your own preconceptions of what I am saying, due to an observed inability to exercise reading-comprehension, stemming from your preconceptions. :shrug:

Quote:


Fuck off and die with your chavunistic bullshit.




My my, such uncivil behavior. It is disappointing that moderators have to respond to uncivility because other individuals cannot act like civilized beings. :nono: If people learned to be civil, moderators would not exist. Collectively supported institutions of power would not exist if human beings respected the rights of others and did not bring the experience of suffering into the world.

Quote:


Pro-Lifers piss me off.




Why would you choose to become emotionally-upset because of the perspectives of others? Why would you inflict suffering upon yourself because other people have the right to form and express their own ideas and perspectives as to the nature of reality?

Perhaps you could redirect that wasted energy into reading and engaging in productive discussion, and have an enjoyable experience of life in the meantime. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7542878 - 10/21/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sorry for the harshness. I wasn't aware you needed the opinions of others couched in philosophical psycho-babble in order for them to be understood by you. I'll try harder next time.

The fact is, you think you know what is best for someone else. You want to tell people when/how/IF they can have a medical procedure that is of NO consequence to you. You can spew forth all the talk about education and responsibility and compassion that you want, but it doesnt change a thing.

Abstinence education DOES not work. People enjoy sex. This is a fact that is biologically hard-wired into our brains. As long as people have sexual organs, they are going to fuck. You Republicans cannot change this, no matter how icky or disgusting you think sex is. And what is the natual consequence of sex? Pregnancy. But this does not mean that people have sex TO make babies. This is your logical disconnect. Babies are an (often) unintended consequence a pleasurable act, not the preferred one.

Is this what you are going to "Educate" people about? Tell them that babies come from sex? Do you think they dont KNOW that? You are not going to cause some paradigm shift in human thinking by telling people why they should not have abortions. Whether they are legal or not, people are going to have them. And you are not going to change this. The only thing you are going to cause is the deaths of thousands of women who YOU are going to force to have abortions in dingy back-rooms and alleys.

If a woman or a couple decide that they do not want to devote the next 9 months + 18 years of their lives to raising a child, YOU SHOULD NOT FORCE THEM TO.

You can talk in a condescending manner all you want about how I'm a terrible person for disliking someones stance on something, but I dont give a shit. Pro-Lifers still piss me off because they think they know whats best for everyone else. You and Ron Paul included.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7543144 - 10/21/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I wasn't aware you needed the opinions of others couched in philosophical psycho-babble in order for them to be understood by you.




I understand your points; they simply weren't compelling. Label competent perceptiveness of what the other says and ability to articulate thoughtful ideas as you wish. :shrug:

Quote:


  I'll try harder next time.




Your strive to endeavor is most appreciated. :smile:

Quote:


The fact is, you think you know what is best for someone else.




Yes, I think I do. I think it is better for someone to forego being pregnant, avoiding all of the negative side-effects on one's experience while being pregnant, as well as undergoing a costly medical treatment to abort a biological process that one has started, then it is to become pregnant and then have an abortion.

It is their choice, but the encouragement of individuals to be conscious and make informed choices is to be strived for, for the benefit of all. Similar to my thoughts as to what is best for someone regarding abortion, I also think that it is better for an individual to eat a healthy diet, then it is to consume salt, hydrogenated oil, sugar, milk, etc.

Do I acknowledge and respect their right to choice? Certainly. It doesn't mean that their choice is the most beneficial choice, in the context of certain aspects of reality.

Quote:


  You want to tell people when/how/IF they can have a medical procedure that is of NO consequence to you.




No I don't. You are projecting identity upon myself that is not based in reality, and is not evidenced in my statements. People make their own decisions, and I have no desire to make anyone's decision for them. Sorry to disappoint by not adhering to your conception of identity. :shrug:

Quote:


  You can spew forth all the talk about education and responsibility and compassion that you want, but it doesnt change a thing.




So encouraging being responsible through skillful means does not produce more potential for the existance of responsibility? Giving people information and opportunity does not facillitate individuals choosing to make informed decisions?

Your assertion that it doesn't change a thing is unsubtantiated, and not in line with how human beings learn and their thinking is influenced by their environment.

Quote:


Abstinence education DOES not work.




Irrelevant fact to this discussion. I'm not certain why you have mentioned abstinence education - if you feel that I am somehow acting as a proponent of abstinence education, then you are not reading my comments as presented, and simply reacting to your own preconception of what is being said. As a demonstration, point to me where I mentioned or alluded to abstinence education, and we can discuss how it isn't there. :smirk:

Quote:


  People enjoy sex.




:shocked:

Quote:


  This is a fact that is biologically hard-wired into our brains.




Some people with mental disorders don't enjoy sex, but it isn't the matter at hand. :smirk:

Quote:


  As long as people have sexual organs, they are going to fuck.




Sexual organs, subsequent usage of sexual organs. :strokebeard:

Okay, I think I got it. :hehehe:

Quote:


  You Republicans cannot change this...




You Republicans? I thought this was a discussion between me and you, and not between me and what you've presented, and you and your preconceptions of who you are talking to and what they are saying. :lol:

Here's a hint - Proposed ideas for discussion do not represent generalized, preconceived notions of identity. You aren't in a discussion with "you Republicans", you are in a discussion with fireworks_god, who, coincidentally, does not carry a card for the Republican party. Quit trying to change and simplify the discussion.

Quote:


, no matter how icky or disgusting you think sex is.




I think sex is passionate, tasty, pleasurable, enthused, blissful, depraved, empowering, and cosmic. :yinyang: :headboard: :naughty:

Quote:


  And what is the natual consequence of sex?  Pregnancy.




What is the transparent manner in which human beings respond to the nature of reality by ensuring they are capable of satisfying their sexual wants and needs without the initiation of a biological process that our conscious mind realizes needs to be intelligently contemplated before being initiated? I'm not sure, but I think it is responsible for millions of people having sex, millions of times, without millions of subsequent babies. Somehow, in some way, human beings can have sex without it resulting in pregnancy.... :confused:

:rofl2:

Quote:


  But this does not mean that people have sex TO make babies.  This is your logical disconnect.




No it isn't - its entirely accounted for, especially considering that I have not made a statement that this fact contradicts.

For your illumination, I stated that it is the responsibility of human beings to be aware of the consequences of their actions, and consciously act in resopnse to the nature of reality. People might not have sex with the intention of creating a baby, yet sex may result in the creation of a baby, and I think it is logical to assume that almost all human beings realize that this is a potential result of having sex. Thus, they are responsible.

Quote:


  Babies are an (often) unintended consequence a pleasurable act, not the preferred one.




These unintended consequences result from individuals choosing to evade their personal responsibility to ensure that they do not create life if it is not their intention. Exceptions aside, it seems very possible to have sex without creating a baby.

Quote:


Is this what you are going to "Educate" people about?  Tell them that babies come from sex?  Do you think they dont KNOW that?




If they know that, and don't intend to create a baby, then why do they not assume responsibility for themself and take steps to have sex without having a baby? :strokebeard: 

Quote:


  You are not going to cause some paradigm shift in human thinking by telling people why they should not have abortions.




Sure I will. :smile:

Human beings cater to self-interest. If it is more in their interest to take preventive measures to prevent the formation of a baby amongst themselves, rather then to have an abortion, then they will act in their best interest. A preventive measure ensures that life energy of one's own is not wasted in the initiation and termination of a biological process of a considerable scale.

Ever hear the phrase, an ounce of prevention.... is worth, a pound of cure? :smirk:

Quote:


  Whether they are legal or not, people are going to have them.  And you are not going to change this.




How do you know? Maybe I'll print some informative brochures and hand them out in front of your mother's house. Maybe people will learn to make better choices for themselves. Your entire assertion, that giving a child information and guidance on how to use woodworking tools will not change the fact that they do not know how to make a cedar cabinent, it entirely unsupported.
:sorry:

Quote:


  The only thing you are going to cause is the deaths of thousands of women who YOU are going to force to have abortions in dingy back-rooms and alleys.




I'm sorry, you aren't discussing myself or what I presented again, but your own imaginative preconceptions of what reality is presenting to you to read and understand. :cuckoo:

I've never stated that I personally wish for abortion to be illegal, or for women to have unsafe conditions in which they have abortions. This is very anti-thetical to my perspective on the matter, and it is a notion that is not evident within anything I have ever said. Stop discussing illusion and start discussing reality.

Quote:


If a woman or a couple decide that they do not want to devote the next 9 months + 18 years of their lives to raising a child, YOU SHOULD NOT FORCE THEM TO.




Thank you for the emphasis, via caps lock. Unfortunately for your effort to clarify the matter for me, I've already been well aware of this for quite some time, and whole-heartedly agree. This is why I have no inclination or desire to force anyone to make any choice. It is their responsibility to make their own choices, not mine.

Of course, it makes much more sense to not initiate the biological process of a baby in the first place, instead of a woman having to deal with the physically and mentally demanding task of becoming pregnant and terminating it later on. Pregnancy is quite capable of being successfully prevented, after all, if it is not intended.

Quote:


You can talk in a condescending manner all you want about how I'm a terrible person for disliking someones stance on something....




Thanks for your permission, but I haven't talked about that yet, and I have no interest in doing so. Feel free to dislike someone's stance. I've never asked you to like a stance, or criticized you for not doing so. Please point me in the direction of where I might have done so.

Quote:


Pro-Lifers still piss me off because they think they know whats best for everyone else.  You and Ron Paul included.




I don't know what is best for everyone else, but I can reasonably ascertain what is best for their health, through scientific observation and predictive abilities.

Is it better for your physical health to eat a bowl of sugar, or a bowl of hemp seed?

That isn't a rhetorical question. Please answer, and reflect on how it relates to the idea that abortion is not a better choice than preventing the need for abortion in the first place. :craven:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7543211 - 10/21/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not going to respond to that whole thing.

You obviously have more time than I do.

Quote:


That isn't a rhetorical question. Please answer, and reflect on how it relates to the idea that abortion is not a better choice than preventing the need for abortion in the first place. :craven:




You will never prevent people from getting pregnant and wanting an abortion.

This is a pie-in-the-sky idealistic hope.

It will not happen.

People are always going to have unwanted pregancies for the reasons I stated above.

The only question that matters is whether you, Ron Paul and therest of the Republican Party would allow them to have abortions or deny them abortions.

Thats it.

End of story.

And whether you realize it or not, if you're stumping for Ron Paul, you're stumping for a Republican candidate.  I think I can be excused for assuming you were a Republican.  If you intend to get Ron Paul nominated, you will be voting in the Republican Primary, which will put you in your states rolls as a Republican voter.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7543330 - 10/21/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I'm not going to respond to that whole thing.




Well, we've both presented our points, and others can conclude who has more accurately represented the nature of reality. If you do not wish to discuss it further, for time constraints, or losing one's footing, its fine. :smile:

Quote:


You will never prevent people from getting pregnant and wanting an abortion.




Not true. I've helped prevent it before. I've already proven you wrong.

Quote:


This is a pie-in-the-sky idealistic hope.




No it isn't. Its reality. The idea that we could eliminate unnecessary federal programs and agencies in order to have more funds for states to divert into education, that would bring individuals to think in a more critical and effective manner, one consequence being that they realize it is more healthy and beneficial to prevent abortion than to initiate a process and then to use it is entirely reasonable.

Apparently, considering the widespread usage of condoms and birth control, educating people and giving them opportunities to prevent creating babies and subsequently aborting them, it has already been demonstrated to be true. You are presenting a point of view that reality has already demonstrated is false. :congrats:

Quote:


It will not happen.




It already has. :sorry:

Quote:


People are always going to have unwanted pregancies for the reasons I stated above.




Luckily, you do not decide the nature of reality, and, fortunately, reality contains within it much more potential for it to become more and more true that people will stop having unwanted pregnancies, especially as technology and understanding of the human body increase. This process of technology and scientific understanding increasing and developing would exponentially grow, the more resources are put into education. People could liberate themselves through education and its application in technology to fuck each other's brains out without ever having to worry about having a child, unless they choose to intend to have one. :smile: 

Quote:


The only question that matters is whether you, Ron Paul and therest of the Republican Party would allow them to have abortions or deny them abortions.

Thats it.

End of story.




I'm sorry, but discussion does not start and stop at your discretion, nor does it fit within your boundaries of what it may or may not involve. You can choose when and where and how you will manage your own participation, however. Others are free to gather ideas and perspective and build understanding and advance and grow as a species. Knowing reality, after all, enables one to survive. Choosing to be ignorant, or to explore the nature of reality, doesn't.

Quote:


And whether you realize it or not, if you're stumping for Ron Paul, you're stumping for a Republican candidate.  I think I can be excused for assuming you were a Republican.




If you wish to excuse yourself for your own preconceptions and limited manners in which to interpret reality, then feel free. It is your right, after all.

Quote:


  If you intend to get Ron Paul nominated, you will be voting in the Republican Primary, which will put you in your states rolls as a Republican voter.




So what? Then my identity becomes your preconception based upon a generalized label? The fact that a system that's purpose is to simplify a complex manner so that uninformed individuals can be manipulated so that others can consolidate power defines one person with an abstract word is regardless. However, as I stated, feel free to interpret reality, a phenomenon that is occurring now, with an outdated model that you formed previous to this moment. It isn't the most effective means of being within reality, but its your right. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7543361 - 10/21/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Philosophical BABBLE. I see why they keep you as a mod in P&S.

There is a big difference between reduction and elimination.

You have not prevented "People" from getting an abortion. You have prevented one person from getting an abortion. There were still over a million performed in the US last year.

Do you that much influence?

Again, the only question that matters is whether you are going to let people do this legally, or make them do it illegally, a matter which you convienently sidestepped in the last post with a paragraph of incomprehensible nonsense.

Quote:


I'm sorry, but discussion does not start and stop at your discretion, nor does it fit within your boundaries of what it may or may not involve. You can choose when and where and how you will manage your own participation, however. Others are free to gather ideas and perspective and build understanding and advance and grow as a species. Knowing reality, after all, enables one to survive. Choosing to be ignorant, or to explore the nature of reality, doesn't.





Blah Blah Blah. Yes, or No?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7543784 - 10/21/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Would you be willing to end personal choice for millions of women to have an important medical procedure just so you can smoke a pipe on the street. Even though you can pretty much get as high as you want anyway. Every woman's death from a backroom abortion should be on your head.




I thought that while Ron Paul was anti-abortion he was also anti-making others' moral choices for them, and so would leave the choice to have an abortion in peoples' own hands. Or is that someone else I'm thinking of?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: Disco Cat]
    #7543798 - 10/21/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If thats what you think Ron Paul is in favor of, then yes, you're thinking of someone else...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7545191 - 10/21/07 11:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How is your position on the medical aspects of personal private choice and abortion, any different from how it will be absolutely ass rape violated under Obama's Universal health care?

Bye bye personal choice of doctor. Bye bye personal choice of insurance carrier. Bye bye, getting second and third opinions. Bye bye getting a procedure done when you need it done in time. Bye bye through FDA bans more access to alternative and preventative medicine and health care.

If you REALLY cared about the things you say you do related to pro-choice arguments, there is no way you would be voting for someone who supports Government regulated Universal health care.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7545934 - 10/22/07 07:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
There is a big difference between reduction and elimination.




Clearly. Yet you've demonstrated that you can only look at a matter through absolute and reductionalistic terms, so you think that, over time, as abortion becomes less and less prevalent, as education and human understanding and consciousness increases, "nothing has changed", because, less and less occasionally, there will still be an abortion here and there.

Your perspective on reality seems as though it is barely sufficent to get you through rush hour traffic. :shrug:

Quote:


You have not prevented "People" from getting an abortion.  You have prevented one person from getting an abortion.  There were still over a million performed in the US last year.




We aren't talking about last year, we are talking about the potential for change as government policies and resources change. Short-sighted individuals cannot grasp or understand the future, however. :shrug:

Quote:


Do you that much influence?




Yes, I do. :wink:

Quote:


Again, the only question that matters to me is whether you are going to let people do this legally, or make them do it illegally, a matter which you convienently sidestepped in the last post with a paragraph of incomprehensible nonsense.




No, I've made my point abundantly clear regarding my respect for the choice of others to make their own decisions regarding abortion, I'm just curious if you have some kind of physical limitation that inhibits your reading comprehension, or if the need for education that I have been referring to really is that dire. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Letter For Ron Paul's Network [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7546271 - 10/22/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
If thats what you think Ron Paul is in favor of, then yes, you're thinking of someone else...




Substantiation? As in, could you demonstrate that Ron Paul's stance is not what he was asking about? You know, instead of dismissing lines of reasoning as philosophical babble, so that one doesn't have to engage in debate, or reasserting the same points that have already been dismissed as being irrelevant to the discussion, or as being untrue or not reflective of the nature of reality, actually taking some effort into supporting a point of view? Contributing some ideas?

Attitude and conclusions are nothing without some informative and reasonable support. :sorry:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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