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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: Rahz]
#7546331 - 10/22/07 10:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You devil you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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I really should try and avoid debating robots. There isn't really much point if bot parties aren't capable of thinking critically, is there? It's just so easy to get sucked in. A better strategy is probably to ignore them.
But just one last thing to Jonathan - the incorrect translation to rib occured in the diffusion of the myth from the mesopotamian to the hebrew. You won't find the correct term in your bible because they fucked it up right from the get go. You've gotta admit that 'breath of life' is a much more common sense thing to make life out of than a rib bone. And now we are done.
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Icelander
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7546366 - 10/22/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I really should try and avoid debating robots.
It's hard not to try to save lost souls.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7546428 - 10/22/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
NiamhNyx said: I really should try and avoid debating robots. There isn't really much point if bot parties aren't capable of thinking critically, is there?
Freudian Slip! Freudian Slip! HAHAHAHAAH
*spazzes out*
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7547503 - 10/22/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: I can't believe I read all that post and I'm still alive from so much and and also and again 
I cannot talk with anyone who reads the Adam and Eve mythos as history. That is clear delusory thinking. I wish I could laugh my ass off, but we have a president of the United States of America who may well believe the same thing. That is rather upsetting. Even the anonymous author[s] of the Genesis accounts (no not Moses, who may himself be mythic. There is no Egyptian archeological evidence pertaining to Moses or an exodus) were writing mythically and metaphorically. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is just not a botanical species, and neither is the Tree of of Life. This is Hebrew mythology. Once I discern delusion, I cease dialogue. One cannot reason with a mad[wo]man.
When a person begins to talk of 'God's plan,' and then assumes some sort of guardianship over that plan, taking affront at all who do not share the same mental assumptions, grandiosity of their ego is evident, not humility. If real worldly power was available to such individuals, one could be fairly certain that persecutions like those which characterize most of Christian history would begin again.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Yes, this could be viewed as a sad matter and what is even more alarming is that lots of other people really have this kind of view. People who are supposedly trustworthy, who have children who most likely will be delusional as well, and who set an example for others. However, I prefer not to feel sad about that. First because I see the futility in doing so and second because laughing and playing turned out to be the best remedy against dullness, sadness or any other kind of depression for me.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
When a person begins to talk of 'God's plan,' and then assumes some sort of guardianship over that plan, taking affront at all who do not share the same mental assumptions, grandiosity of their ego is evident, not humility.
There really is a attitude of egotistic grandiosity in most literalists. They seem to really get off on being the 'oppressed' minority in knowing the 'Truth' and standing up for it against all scrutiny and common sense. It's a sort of martyr complex. Time and time again the 'debate' whirls back around to some sort of snivelling about how they are soooo misunderstood and how unreasonable and oppressive it is to be critical of thier ideas. 'I'd give you some proof but you wouldn't listen anyways so I don't have to.' 
Quote:
If real worldly power was available to such individuals, one could be fairly certain that persecutions like those which characterize most of Christian history would begin again.
You mean of course that when such individuals had and still have such power, these persecutions occur? There is a gruesomely long list of suffering millions, thanks to power-freak-martyr-complex Christian idiots.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7549188 - 10/22/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well Dr.TT, your playfulness is more than evident in your posts, and it is a needful corrective for those with so grim and serious an outlook. Sad though it is that we humans live with knowledge of our mortality, and the anxiety of not knowing exactly how, when or where, THESE individuals seek to expand suffering to metaphysical threats of eternal torture beyond death. Though Iesus is my Teacher, I an increasingly reluctant to call myself a Christian, lest others consider me to be a fundamentalist (*shudder*).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7549194 - 10/22/07 09:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Our job is to love, not to judge.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Thank God I'm retired then. If loving becomes a job I'm sure to resent the long hours sooner or later.
I think our goal is to be fully human. That includes loving and judging and many other messy and contradictory traits.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_guy_named_ai
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I feel the need to defend myself. Please don't apply the habits of other so called Christians who push around their beliefs on others. I do not vote. I do not judge others, and I do not share the same political outlook on life as many touted Christians throughout history. SO please in the future, don't include me in with them.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: Icelander]
#7550000 - 10/23/07 05:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That, in a strictly spiritual Way. Jesus taught us to love, not to judge. On a lesser note, I did manage to get dismissed from jury service last week.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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The observations that have been made were not a personal attack, since a deeper analysis was imperative for discussing exactly the subject of the thread: how commonly known Christianity is influencing our lives in a psycho-social context, as opposed to the spirit of it. Also the observations were not preconceived ideas, but observations regarding your posts and the "ideas" you presented. I hope that you have the mind to note the subtle difference.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
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Quote:
jonathan_206 said: I feel the need to defend myself. Please don't apply the habits of other so called Christians who push around their beliefs on others. I do not vote. I do not judge others, and I do not share the same political outlook on life as many touted Christians throughout history. SO please in the future, don't include me in with them.
So are you saying that if we choose to believe otherwise than you that will not be sent to hell? Or do we need to "defend" ourselves?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: Icelander]
#7550706 - 10/23/07 12:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, I'm saying I don't judge others, plain and simple. If I believe that God judges sinners, it's God who is judge and not me. Just because someone has a belief, does not mean they are judging others. That is a false definition of judge. Judge does not mean just belief,opinion, discernment,vocal expression of disagreement. It means actively judging others.
If you feel that my beliefs in my religion is judging you because it implies you'll be judged, that is a logical fallacy, and and a contradiction. Your belief, which condemns my religion would also be judging as well. But that's nonsense, and unless you want to take away everyone's liberties and freedoms of thought, which is impossible and wrong, it's not going to work.
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Icelander
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I don't want to take away anyones freedoms. Personally I don't care what you or pretend creators think.
What I would prefer is that folk who debate here use evidence to back their positions so that an actual debate can occur. I can say any ol thing because I read it in a comic book and it makes me feel secure to believe it. But if I'm not open to the possibility of being proved wrong I don't belong here. This is a forum for open minded debate. Your mind is closed and locked down it seems. There is a forum created just especially for you here. Why don't you use it? You post on nothing else it seems,is it that you feel the need to proselytize? That by itself does not belong in this forum IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: Icelander]
#7551038 - 10/23/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
What I would prefer is that folk who debate here use evidence to back their positions so that an actual debate can occur. I can say any ol thing because I read it in a comic book and it makes me feel secure to believe it. But if I'm not open to the possibility of being proved wrong I don't belong here. This is a forum for open minded debate. Your mind is closed and locked down it seems. There is a forum created just especially for you here. Why don't you use it? You post on nothing else it seems,is it that you feel the need to proselytize? That by itself does not belong in this forum IMO.
I do back up my beliefs with evidence. If you do not accept the bible as a valid and literal history, as I belief it ought to be, that is your problem not mine. I can back up everything I say. I am not going to wait for you to agree with me before I proclaim it as Truth.
A real debate has been going on, your complaint is not warrented. Being open to the possibility for being proven wrong is not a prerequisite for debate, but as it happens I am open to the possibility of being proven wrong. Believing you are right does not make it impossible for introspection or critical anylization of one's beliefs. I think you're just mad because my dogmaticism is not the same as your dogmaticism.
You are also wrong that I post on nothing else, go take a look at my posts, you'll see I post on a wide variety of subjects.
You believe that I cannot be a witness to others and still reason and debate because you have predetermined it's not possible. But you're wrong.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/23/07 02:28 PM)
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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Quote:
I do back up my beliefs with evidence. If you do not accept the bible as a valid and literal history, as I belief it ought to be, that is your problem not mine.
No, it is your problem, insofar as your evidence presupposes that your claims are true. This does not work as a logical proof. You have presented no actual evidence which does not require that your beliefs are factual before being accepted as evidence, thus NO PROOF. 
It is just as likely that the Bible was created by men, from ideas conceptualized by men, to rule over other men, as it is that a supernatural all-seeing all-knowing Father figure dictated the whole mishmash. Well, IMO, it is a great deal MORE likely that the former is true, as we certainly have a preponderance of evidence which involves men making things up, and no evidence (aside from the Bible itself, which again, requires that your claims be factual prior to being valid evidence ) which involves deities appearing or voices from the sky dictating religious texts. 
It's totally fine if you want to believe these things are Truth with a capital "T." Whatever. Keep them out of the public schools, off the law books, and away from me and my family, but enjoy the full exercise of your right to whatever beliefs make you happy.
But don't expect that proclaiming your religious handbook as evidence is going to support your assertions in a debate. I would have just as much validity in claiming that Greek myths involving Zeus prove that he exists, and is the Father of the pantheon of gods. After all, these stories have been told for thousands of years--they must be true! I can provide links to the historical existence of these stories having been recorded by humans!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7551506 - 10/23/07 04:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: The observations that have been made were not a personal attack, since a deeper analysis was imperative for discussing exactly the subject of the thread: how commonly known Christianity is influencing our lives in a psycho-social context, as opposed to the spirit of it. Also the observations were not preconceived ideas, but observations regarding your posts and the "ideas" you presented. I hope that you have the mind to note the subtle difference.
I appreciate this eloquent interjection. The fact that people use scriptural writings as the basis for their own position and then make the transparent claim that 'I' am not judging you, God is judging you, is just ridiculous.
Saul of Tarsus AKA Paul didn't lay claim to sainthood. That title was bestowed by the same credentialling organization which sold indulgences to absolve sin in the middle ages. Paul apparently did have Transcendental experiences which empowered his convictions and it was his experiences of being "caught up to the third heaven" of which he writes that express Christian gnosis. Since Paul was a Jew, his experiences were colored by his Jewish training, as anyone with any knowledge of religious experience would understand. Paul's awakened conscience, which manifested in his Damascus road experience as hysterical blindness, he himself documented. His conscience was awakened traumatically as a result of profound guilt over his participation in the stoning death of Stephen (and presumably other Jewish heretics called Christians) and had far-reaching effects. He took the God-mysticism of Iesus and replaced it with Christ-mysticism to assauge his own profound guilt as an accomplice to the murder of Christians.
So, when one is faced today with the Biblical writings of Paul, it is VERY important to see the psychosocial implications behind Paul's choice of language and the infrastructure of Christian religion. Paul was a sinner and Paul not only felt guilty (which, by itself is just neurotic), Paul WAS guilty - of murder! He overcompensated to such a degree to make up for his part in the murder of innocent followers of Iesus that he essentially sacrificed his proud Jewish rabbinic identity to become "all things to all men" and to become THE Apostle to the Gentiles. Guilty people tend to project guilt onto everyone, just as liars (for example) believe that everyone lies. The ubiquitous guilt of Paul's doctrine was magnified by Augustine into "Original Sin," which was never a Jewish doctrine. Here then is the rudiment of the Christian religion as constructed by Paul and subsequent Paulists - everybody is guilty and in need of redemption - contrary to the words of Iesus Himself in various Biblical places.
Thus, it is not the Ultimate Source of Paul's religious experiences that taint Christianity, for that Source is the same as the one Iesus experienced. It is the doctrinal construction of it that flows from such blatently obvious pathology. The famous "thorn in my side" which Paul complained about and asked God three times for its removal, may well have been the overwhelming guilt he continued to experience after he Realized that The Way was the way to Be. My own speculation, but one that follows from the writings. Relegating human psychological phenomenon exclusively to spiritual explanations is just what many evangelicals do when they attribute hysteria (e.g., being 'slain in the spirit') to the actions of the Holy Spirit. Reading Transcendental causes (i.e., the Holy Spirit) into all of Paul's experiences is to make the same grievous and uncritical error. Then, to consider his words, as flawed as they are by his own pathology, social conditioning and personal idiosyncracies to be holy writ is what flaws the religion that has come to be called Christianity.
Sorry for the ramble, I got 'in-spired.' I apologize for addressing my detractor[s] through addressing your post.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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