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MarkostheGnostic
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The Deification of Masculinity
#7539874 - 10/20/07 04:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Despite the unusual juxtaposition of masculine and feminine parts in the Hebrew Name of God, Elohim, and despite the same sort of juxtaposition in the Name Allah, both Judaism and Islam suggest that God be referred to with strictly masculine pronouns. Christianity, historically between Judaism and Islam also shares this one-sided masculine bias. Added to this, Christianity's mythos has decided, by way of the Johannine writings, to make Iesus 'God clothed in flesh,' and although He takes the flesh of a female, he is in the form of a male. I once asked a physiology professor in grad school if Iesus' cells would've been Haploid or Diploid, and he said: "What do you think the 'H.' stands for in 'Jesus H. Christ'?"
In Islam, the reward of Heaven for men are those 72 perpetual celestial virgins with pearlescent bones, the marrow of which are ruby which show forth through their translucent bodies. They are there for the perpetual pleasure of good Muslims. Women can go to Heaven too, to serve their husbands who will be busy in their perpetual fuck-fest.
Judaism does not speak exoterically about Heaven, but esoteric Judaism, the Kabbalah to be exact, has a very high mysticism in which we disidentify with our egoic mind-body and come to Realize our true nature as a Transcendental Reality, a Union of Opposites in which divinely masculine and feminine aspects are reconciled in a Heavenly Marriage. On Friday evening, women traditionally light the Sabbath candles and gesture with a wafting motion towards themselves which symbolizes being covered by the Shekinah - the indwelling feminine aspect of the Godhead. There are different feminine and masculine symbols in the glph of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. This is all good, but exoteric Judaism still treats God as masculine, women are segregated from men in Orthodox Judaism, and their is a clearly subservient role played by women (e.g., one cannot touch a woman or receive food from a woman on her period as she is considered to be unclean).
Christianity originally began as Iesus (and probably His companion Miriam called Magdalene) taught egalitarianism between the sexes. The earliest writings of Christianity by Paul reflect this egalitarian teaching: (“There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” - Galatians 3:28). Nevertheless, the later pseudo-Pauline letters, which are forgeries, changed the egalitarian teachings as the patriarchal Jewish mentality was adopted by the so-called Church Fathers: ("As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. - 1 Corinthians 14:33-38).
As the the feminine was depreciated, it was similarly reflected in the theology which concocted a Trinity of three masculine personalities. Of course, the ambivalent Holy Spirit was symbolized by a dove, the animal sacred to Aphrodite and goddesses of antiquity, but the HS fertilized the womb of Miriam the mother of Iesus, and so, the HS was also deemed masculine. Catholics acknowledged the feminine through the 'veneration' of the mother of Iesus, but not her 'worship. The Orthodox called her 'Theotokos,' - Mother of God, already stating that Iesus was not only 'anointed' [Christos] but actually 'God clothed in flesh.'
I have studied the esoteric (and sometimes very psychedelic-sounding) theology of Orthodox Christianity. The very bastian of this aspect of Christendom might be said to center on Mount Athos, a Greek island which has been home for anchorite mystic monks for over 1000 years. Reachable only by boat, this mountainous island of caves, some accessible by ladders of chain has forbidden any women to set forth on it for 1000 years! Again, the theology of the Trinity, Patristic theology, has been most explicated by Orthodox Christians. The word Patristics has 'father' and masculinity built into it. A modern Orthodox theologian who wrote extensively on the subject of Wisdom, Sophia in that tradition, was accused of heresy on more than one occassion because he came close to affirming 'Feminine Uncreated Energies' in the masculine Trinitarian Godhead.
I am reading two books concurrently: Living Gnosis: A Practical Guide to Gnostic Christianity by Tau Malachi, and Embracing Jesus and the Goddess: A Radical Call for Spiritual Sanity by Carl McColman. Both of these books, in different ways, express the need for their authors to balance and reconcile the repression of Yin with Yang, to use the Chinese terms, that occurred in Christianity soon after its formation, with its usurpation, appropriation and corruption by Constantine. The duality-in-oneness of Tibetan Buddhism's masculine-feminine/compassion-wisdom/yab-yum symbols are expressed in Gnostic Christianity's Iesus-Miriam (Jesus-Mary) figures. Patriarchy apparently substituted John for Mary in some contexts (as DaVinci's 'Last Supper' alludes to) and Peter for Mary in other places (Nag Hammadi Gospels of Philip and Mary suggest that Mary was to head the Church).
Much esoteric symbolism found in both scriptural writings of the NT as well as in medieval art suggest this masculine-feminine balance in the figure of Iesus: blood and water issuing from a lance-pierced heart (blood is solar and masculine, water is lunar and feminine). The Sacred Heart image has the Crown of Thorns encircling the Heart. The Head (masculine, crown, mind) has descended to Heart (feminine, spirit). Often, the crucifixion is depicted between a sun and a moon, and the darkness that occurred is associated by a solar eclipse, a Conjunctio Oppositorum - a Union of Opposites. Below the images that the language gives rise to is a symbolic level of meaning that is closer to the Truth which is itself Unmanifest and Formless - the Truth that Judaism and Islam insist upon in their absolute abhorrence of depictions of The Sacred.
Carl McColman has not yet internalized his intrapsychic conflict. He finds himself attending Pagan Goddess worship in one location and Christian God worship in another, and he admits that it is a less-than perfect arrangement. Tau Malachi, as a leader of a Sophian Gnostic Church utilizes ritual to symbolize the interior union that people seek on various levels. The Tantric Yab-Yum, Holy Matrimony, the Marriage of Shekinah and Tiphereth all represent the sacralizing of human sexuality, but, as I once explained to an antique dealer from whom I was buying a Yab-Yum statue, the depiction in Buddhism of this sexual act is a sacred symbol for the Union of Compassion and Wisdom [Karuna and Prajna] - the Leaden nature raised up to spiritual Gold, the profane to the sacred. Christainity has a great deal to learn from ancient traditions within its own fold, condemned as heretical, as well as from venerable traditions outside of Christendom. Who among you are willing to go beyond the 'archons' who have imprisoned true Christian aspirants in a dungeon of doctrines for two millennia?
Peace and Love, MtG
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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WScott
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Why do you say Iesus (I-sus?, Isis)and not Jesus in some parts?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: WScott]
#7540206 - 10/20/07 05:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just a reminder of authenticity. There is no letter 'J' in Greek, the letter Iota is used.
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NiamhNyx
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This is a really interesting post, Markos. Thanks! I have a lot of interest in this subject, although not a lot of knowledge. Have you read the book 'Jesus and the Lost Goddess' by Timothy Freke and Paul Gandy? If so, what do you think of it?
An interesting note that has some degree of relevance is the mistranslation of a key term in the Genesis account of creation. The story diffused from the Mesopotamian to the Hebrew. In the original language there was a word used that meant the breath of life, but was mistaken for rib. Like the English words sun and son, determining the word intended is entirely context based so a foreign listener could easily make such a mistake. This means that in the original story God took the breath of life from Adam and created Eve. She was not a secondary, derivative creature created from the rib bone of the perfect first, but rather of the same essense. It's interesting and horrific, how such a simple mistake so easily made utterly changed the meaning of the story and relegated woman to a second class.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7540518 - 10/20/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, I've read 3 of Freke's & Gandy's books. I enjoyed them, but university scholars apparently do not recognize their work and never cite them.
There are man many mistranslations in scriptures. 'Son of Man' was changed from 'Son of Adam' apparently. Adam Kadmon is 'cosmic man' according to Kabbalistic thought, something akin to the 'mystical body of Christ.' The universal principles and symbols for Transcendental Reality are 'ideas,' yet they are, as ideas, relegated to 'mind' and are like the light of the Sun reflected by the Moon. The ideas are NOT the Reality in Itself. That is why those who believe doctrines to be salvific are idolators. Mere belief in an idea not only does not transform the total person into the Reality to which the doctrine points, it intoxicates the person into believing that belief alone is sufficient.
Thanks for your response!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
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Here I believe you have put your finger on the human dilemma. There will be no real emotional progress towards the world of love we claim we crave without the merging of the masculine and feminine within each of us. We are faced each day personally and in the world at large with the result of our failure to achieve this. Great post.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: Icelander]
#7540867 - 10/20/07 09:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Honored, coming from such a well-honed skeptic as yourself.
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NiamhNyx
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Hmm, fascinating subject. I'd really like to spend some time studying the diffusion of stories from mesopotamia, babylon, etc. to the hebrew and eventually to the bible. We've touched on it a bit in my mythology class... the biblical flood story is from babylon- found within the Gilgamesh epic- with a few key changes (the hebrew tellers didn't know much about boats, and in the babylonian the gods were angry about people being noisy rather than wicked.) The modern bible is so obviously a product of massive revision centuries after the fact. Of course this is the way with myth, it shifts with the shifting values and needs of the culture, and through it's many cultural diffusions. This is why it's so strange that people take it so literally; of course it has changed, and of course it is simply reflecting the values that are prevalent in the culture at the time. Myth is told in metaphor. How could it be otherwise? 
As for Freke and Gandy, I enjoyed the book myself but wondered about thier scholarship. I really ought to study the subject in greater depth.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7541602 - 10/21/07 04:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's so hard to even respond to this. It's a long winded tirade, and you make numerous outrageous claims without even explaining or backing them up.
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Christianity's mythos has decided, by way of the Johannine writings, to make Iesus 'God clothed in flesh,'
No, that's not true at all. Jesus' divinity in the flesh is foretold long before the gospels were ever written.
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and although He takes the flesh of a female, he is in the form of a male.
nonsense.
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Judaism does not speak exoterically about Heaven, but esoteric Judaism, the Kabbalah
The kabbalah has nothing to do with Judaism. The Spiritual symbolism contained in the tabernacle, priestly service, and o.t. law is a "shadow of the good things to come in Christ". The new testament, book of revelation is a further manifestation of what is to come in heaven. It reveals that the children of God are to be a sort of heavenly city where God will live in us and among us. Beyond this, we know very little. Kabbalism has no place in Judaism, it does not stand on the authority of God's word, it is an unauthorized addition to scripture, and it is a perversion of the type symbolism contained in the o.t. It is nonsense and does not edify.
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Nevertheless, the later pseudo-Pauline letters, which are forgeries
You just state this without even explaining, as if it's common knowledge. If they could be proven to be forgeries, then Christianity would be over. You have absolutely no substantial proof to back this claim. It's only a statement born out of your biased imagination.
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The earliest writings of Christianity by Paul reflect this egalitarian teaching: (“There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” - Galatians 3:28).
This has to do with value, not roles. And what evidence do you have to show that this is any more valid than the books you don't like? None. They are all valid, and you just pick and choose what you like and throw away the rest.
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Of course, the ambivalent Holy Spirit was symbolized by a dove, the animal sacred to Aphrodite and goddesses of antiquity
This is because aphrodite is just another pseudonym of Semiramis the "queen of heaven" that all of the ancient peoples had adopted in their different forms. The use of the symbolism of the dove was just another theft and corruption from the knowledge and prophecy that had been handed down by the children of Adam. There is proof for this.
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Christianity originally began as Iesus (and probably His companion Miriam called Magdalene)
Nonsense
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but the HS fertilized the womb of Miriam the mother of Iesus, and so, the HS was also deemed masculine.
First of all, if you're so intent on getting the original pronunciation correct, it's Maria or Mariam, not miriam. But the Holy Spirit being deemed Male because Jesus was manifested in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit is outrageous. It never says God had sexual relations with her, it only says God put the child in her womb.
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And2532 the3588 angel32 answered611 and said2036 unto her,846 The Holy40 Ghost4151 shall come1904 upon1909 thee,4571 and2532 the power1411 of the Highest5310 shall overshadow1982 thee:4671 therefore1352 also2532 that holy thing40 which shall be born1080 of1537 thee4675 shall be called2564 the Son5207 of God.2316 .
Unlike man, God doesn't need a female counterpart to create human life. And Jesus Christ has always existed as the word of God.
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Much esoteric symbolism found in both scriptural writings of the NT as well as in medieval art suggest this masculine-feminine balance in the figure of Iesus: blood and water issuing from a lance-pierced heart (blood is solar and masculine, water is lunar and feminine). The Sacred Heart image has the Crown of Thorns encircling the Heart. The Head (masculine, crown, mind) has descended to Heart (feminine, spirit). Often, the crucifixion is depicted between a sun and a moon, and the darkness that occurred is associated by a solar eclipse, a Conjunctio Oppositorum - a Union of Opposites.
You are imposing pagan mystic symbology on Christianity, it is nonsense. once again you have no basis for your claims. You like to claim Christianity is forged, but take a look at gnosticism, and see how it stands up to scrutiny. It has no authority, it's just vain babblings that do not edify.
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I have studied the esoteric (and sometimes very psychedelic-sounding) theology of Orthodox Christianity. The very bastian of this aspect of Christendom might be said to center on Mount Athos, a Greek island which has been home for anchorite mystic monks for over 1000 years. Reachable only by boat, this mountainous island of caves, some accessible by ladders of chain has forbidden any women to set forth on it for 1000 years!
I'm not surprised you're interested in it. It's full of worthless ritual and is traced right back to the same Babylonian mystery religion.
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Below the images that the language gives rise to is a symbolic level of meaning that is closer to the Truth which is itself Unmanifest and Formless
Vain babblings, just like I said. You choose a portion of true Christianity, but if you really understood it you would understand that the things in the old testament were a shadow of the good things to come, the profitable spiritual edification that is manifested in the face of Jesus Christ, the Son of GOD. In love and righteousness. In love, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
And if it is unmanifest, then why do you seek it, and how can you know the nature of the truth without it being manifest?
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("As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. - 1 Corinthians 14:33-38).
You don't understand.
Man was created in God's image. But what about woman? How can you criticize what you do not understand? If you knew what nature she was created in, then you would not criticize so easily.
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NiamhNyx
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If Markos wrote a long winded tirade as you have accused, what may we call your post, which contains nothing more than arrogant proclamations of true knowledge with not the slightest bit of scholarship to back it up? Your response is nothing more than a whiny hissy fit. If you really believe he's off base and you have something substantial to prove this, show us the money and make a proper argument.
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Icelander
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7542385 - 10/21/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: NiamhNyx]
#7542419 - 10/21/07 11:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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If Markos wrote a long winded tirade as you have accused, what may we call your post, which contains nothing more than arrogant proclamations of true knowledge with not the slightest bit of scholarship to back it up? Your response is nothing more than a whiny hissy fit. If you really believe he's off base and you have something substantial to prove this, show us the money and make a proper argument. 
No, there is plently of scholarship to back it up. I am forced to keep it short because to go in great detail with scholarship would be very lengthy and If someone needs scholarship, I can point them in the right direction or prove or show whatever I need to. But I can't consume my time with writing a single great essay just to answer a person. But it still needs to be answered. I have found this numerous times..certain people on this forum who are the real ones posting long winded "arrogant proclomations of true knowledge" like this one here. It was an opening, Now if anyone has a counter arguement, I'll be sure to answer it.
Is there really a need to go on about commonly accepted knowledge? No. He should have "showed the money and made a proper arguement" to begin with.
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MushroomTrip
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You're not paying attention to what a debate serves for, cause otherwise you would sustain your point instead saying empty words like "I don't have time", I don't like you.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7542474 - 10/21/07 12:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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once again
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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jonathan_206 said: It's so hard to even respond to this. It's a long winded tirade....
And yet you endeavored to struggle on.
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nonsense.
Proclaimation with no substantiation is useless.
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You just state this without even explaining, as if it's common knowledge. If they could be proven to be forgeries, then Christianity would be over.
Faulty logic. Its not like dropping water on a wicked witch.
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This has to do with value, not roles. And what evidence do you have to show that this is any more valid than the books you don't like? None. They are all valid, and you just pick and choose what you like and throw away the rest.
No, they aren't all valid. Unless you can actually cite some information for us to consider, for example, perhaps actually referencing some of these books and that which they propose, you are wasting everyone's times.
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There is proof for this.
Where? Not in your post, that is for sure.
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Nonsense
Proclamation with no substantiation is useless.
Whoa, deja vu....
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First of all, if you're so intent on getting the original pronunciation correct, it's Maria or Mariam, not miriam.
Substantiation?
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But the Holy Spirit being deemed Male because Jesus was manifested in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit is outrageous.
So outrageous that its contagious?
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Unlike man, God doesn't need a female counterpart to create human life.
You know this, how?
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And Jesus Christ has always existed as the word of God.
Jesus Christ ate barbeque ribs with me down at the bar and grill last Friday... is that existing as the word of God? He was so drunk, I thought he wouldn't stop hitting on those poor waiters.
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You are imposing pagan mystic symbology on Christianity, it is nonsense. once again you have no basis for your claims. You like to claim Christianity is forged, but take a look at gnosticism, and see how it stands up to scrutiny. It has no authority, it's just vain babblings that do not edify.
This isn't a judgement forum, it is a forum for the discussion of ideas. Proposing baseless judgement without the support of ideas serves no purpose. No one is considering your judgement to have any value, as a result.
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I'm not surprised you're interested in it. It's full of worthless ritual and is traced right back to the same Babylonian mystery religion.
Personalisms are not welcome in this forum. 
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Vain babblings, just like I said.
Just like what directly followed that statement of yours.
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You don't understand.
No, you don't understand.
Mature level of discussion. 
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Man was created in God's image. But what about woman? How can you criticize what you do not understand? If you knew what nature she was created in, then you would not criticize so easily.
In what nature was woman created in, and how have you determined this?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: fireworks_god]
#7542591 - 10/21/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Jesus Christ ate barbeque ribs with me down at the bar and grill last Friday... is that existing as the word of God? He was so drunk, I thought he wouldn't stop hitting on those poor waiters. 
Yeah dude, it's because they didn't give him leading role in the porn of the year... I told him that the Greek muse costume was outdated and revealed all his cellulite but he wouldn't listen.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'



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Quote:
No, there is plently of scholarship to back it up. I am forced to keep it short because to go in great detail with scholarship would be very lengthy and If someone needs scholarship, I can point them in the right direction or prove or show whatever I need to. But I can't consume my time with writing a single great essay just to answer a person.
This is a diversion. Here you are saying 'I really know what I'm talking about but it's too complicated and I don't have time, so just believe me. I'm right. I'm arrogant enough about my rightness that I don't need to form a reasonable argument.'
Pick one point. Make one argument. I'm not asking you to spend the next month of your life writing me a 10,000 word paper tearing Markos apart (I would hope you had better things to do.) I just want ONE argument that demonstrates accurate, reasonable scholarship and gets to the heart of the matter. Pick what you find to be the most offensively innacurate detail and tear it apart. This is what discourse is about, this is how debate takes place and how ideas are properly examined.
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I have found this numerous times..certain people on this forum who are the real ones posting long winded "arrogant proclomations of true knowledge" like this one here. It was an opening, Now if anyone has a counter arguement, I'll be sure to answer it.
What are you talking about? A counter argument to what? There's nothing to argue in your post because you didn't make a single point, rather just complained about Markos' innacuracy without offering a substantial alternative interpretation.
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Is there really a need to go on about commonly accepted knowledge? No. He should have "showed the money and made a proper arguement" to begin with.
Commonly accepted knowledge, or commonly accepted superstition? Mythology changes. Whatever you think is commonly accepted knowledge is nothing more than an interpretation that suits the needs of the culture which you have gleaned it from. I think that Markos is making a great attempt to cut through that, to get deeper into the origin of the Christian mythos and shed some light on why and how it has changed. If you disagree with his conclusions I want to hear about scholarship that refutes his - if you stand by church doctrine, that is just fine, but I want to hear about the scholarship behind the formation of doctrine, not 'it's true because the church says its true and everyone believes it.' This is a logical fallacy and it's boring.
Don't think I'm picking you apart because I don't like what you believe. If you were to present a compelling argument I'd respect that regardless of whether I bought it or not. This is not an argument about whether or not God exists or any other faith based issue - thus conclusions cannot be arbitrary. This is an argument about interpreting scripture which is a rather academic pursuit- it requires anthropological, linguistic, and historical work. Fun stuff.
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fireworks_god
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7542596 - 10/21/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Jesus Christ ate barbeque ribs with me down at the bar and grill last Friday... is that existing as the word of God? He was so drunk, I thought he wouldn't stop hitting on those poor waiters. 
Yeah dude, it's because they didn't give him leading role in the porn of the year... I told him that the Greek muse costume was outdated and revealed all his cellulite but he wouldn't listen.
Well, I think he was also mildly depressed, when he found out that Arnold Swartzenegger doesn't involve himself in gay pornography, due to his political career. Jesus had his heart set on massaging Arnold, so to speak.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Rahz
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Excellent post.
People become what they hate. Men hated women and became what they perceived women to be. Women retaliated by hating men, and became what they perceived men to be.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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MushroomTrip
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Re: The Deification of Masculinity [Re: Rahz]
#7542705 - 10/21/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Darn straight!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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