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OfflineWakeboardrB
Pepe Silvia
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Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies....
    #7538210 - 10/20/07 03:16 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

... ever account for the fact that two Boeing 767's weighing more than 250,000 pounds traveling at speeds of 466 and 545 miles per hour....


... might have been enough to collapse two static buildings and any structures that might have been hit by their debris?


Or is their a magic bullet responsible for this one as well?


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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InvisibleantiPock
fighting entropy
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7538216 - 10/20/07 03:23 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I'm no conspiracy junkie, but just why did building 7 collapse? That is the tricky question to me.

Edited by antiPock (10/20/07 03:31 AM)

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Offlinej3ckyl
☣☤Penteract☤☣
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7538256 - 10/20/07 04:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Um, aint it funny the way a boeing hitting a building that was specifically designed to take a plane crashing into collapses? Building 7 collapses without even being hit and then theres also the way that when a boeing hits a building this would naturally cause the steel several stories down to be cut into nice clean angles exactly the same way steel is cut with thermite in a standard demolition? I wonder.....



--------------------


"There are only two states of being: Too much and not enough"

Isnt the war on drugs supposed to reduce harm? So far all i see are casualties.

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OfflineJack86
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: j3ckyl]
    #7538286 - 10/20/07 04:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

conspiracey theroys are fucking disgusting, some people really have lost the plot.
this isent a episode of 24.
i also find it quite sad that people often go on about these conspiracy theroys , bit disrespectfal to the thousands that died?
:rolleyes:
p.s im not a govement spy trying to throw people of the scent

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Jack86]
    #7538321 - 10/20/07 05:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What I'd like to see is more footage from the pentagon of the plane that hit it. If they would just release the videos, then the accusations of a missile hitting it could be debunked.

However, considering America and every other fascist nation's history, and that operation Northwoods is a public fact, I suspect it's more probable that something besides a plane hit and penetrated multiple walls of the pentagon.


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7538338 - 10/20/07 06:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

jack86-> whats disrespectful is a coverup, anyone not asking questions, provoking thoughts, is a abomination to the human race...or purhaps a prime example of it depending on how you look at it.

The undeniable proof of a coverup is the fact that their is footage of airforce 1 flying over the pentigon on 9/11, and when asked about it everyone denies it. Why would anyone lie about that i wonder? Because you denie everything far and near during an event like 9/11. You hold all the cards when you just shut the door on anyone who asks a question.

There are PAGES full of BULLSHIT that happened before, during, and after 9/11....statisticly, and logically, you would be a prime example of a brainwashed american lab rat if you thought not even ONE of them were true.

And if one of them is true, and id bet my life on it, then theirs a good chance something was covered up on purpose.

Its clear in my mind we are trying to force our government on other countrys since 9/11. We are trying to become the new rome it would seem....

self inflicted, staged, or allowed to happen, it happened because we want

1. spread of christanity (its the secret gov. that is underlining everything bad)
2. land/power
3. money

its very simple children, to think anything else is just closing your eye's because its so much easier.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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OfflineOracle Of Delphi
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7538360 - 10/20/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i just wonder why the lawn in front of the Pentagon wasnt schorched?

and if we are on that train of thought - where was the fusilage / bodies? they took away a 6 foot piece of something - but what?

and it has come to light the Popular Mechanics report of 9/11 was paid for by the Govt.

ahh well - oil is trading @ $89. a barrel, so all is well.:boxerface:


:thumbdown:OoD


--------------------


http://dictionary.reference.com/


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Oracle Of Delphi]
    #7538375 - 10/20/07 06:40 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/161007_nist_unexplainable.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

In a recent letter (PDF link) to 9/11 victim's family representatives Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine, NIST states, "We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse."

A 10,000 page scientific study only offers theories as to how the "collapse initiation" proceeded and fails to address how it was possible for part of a WTC structure to fall through the path of most resistance at freefall speed, completely violating the accepted laws of physics.

(Article continues below)



In addition, NIST's own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.

"NIST'S 10,000-page report purports to explain what it calls "collapse initiation" -- the loss of several floors' vertical support," writes Kevin Barrett of Scholars for 9/11 Truth. "In order to dream up this preposterous scenario, NIST had to ignore its own tests that showed that virtually none of the steel got hotter than 500 degrees f. It had to claim that somehow the planes took out many core columns, despite the fact that only a direct hit by an engine would have been likely to do so, and that the chances of this happening even once are fairly low. It had to preposterously allege that the plane that nicked the corner of the South Tower took out more core columns than the one that hit the North Tower almost dead center. It had to tweak all the parameters till they screamed bloody murder and say that the steel was far weaker than it actually was, the fire was far hotter than it actually was, the sagging was far greater than it actually was, and so on. And so NIST hallucinated a computer-generated fantasy scenario for "collapse initiation"--the failure of a few floors."

"But how do you get from the failure of a few floors to total collapse at free-fall speed of the entire structure? The short answer: You don't. Anyone with the slightest grasp of the laws of physics understands that even if all of the vertical supports on a few floors somehow failed catastrophically at exactly the same moment--a virtually impossible event, but one necessary to explain why the Towers would come straight down rather than toppling sideways--the top part of the building could not fall THROUGH the still-intact, highly robust lower part of the building, straight through the path of most resistance, just as fast as it would have fallen through thin air."

"Thus total free-fall collapse, even given NIST's ridiculous "initiation" scenario, is utterly impossible. The probability of it happening is exactly equal to the probability of the whole building suddenly falling upward and landing on the moon," concludes Barrett.

NIST have yet to properly address the sudden freefall collapse of WTC Building 7, which imploded on the late afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a jetliner.


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InvisibleautomanM
blasted chipmunk
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: antiPock]
    #7538391 - 10/20/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

antiPock said:
I'm no conspiracy junkie, but just why did building 7 collapse? That is the tricky question to me.




yep. if it wasnt for building 7, i could look over most everything else as a very bizarre set of coincidences. but not with building 7 taken into account.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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OfflineOracle Of Delphi
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7538392 - 10/20/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/161007_nist_unexplainable.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

In a recent letter (PDF link) to 9/11 victim's family representatives Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine, NIST states, "We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse."

A 10,000 page scientific study only offers theories as to how the "collapse initiation" proceeded and fails to address how it was possible for part of a WTC structure to fall through the path of most resistance at freefall speed, completely violating the accepted laws of physics.

(Article continues below)



In addition, NIST's own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.

"NIST'S 10,000-page report purports to explain what it calls "collapse initiation" -- the loss of several floors' vertical support," writes Kevin Barrett of Scholars for 9/11 Truth. "In order to dream up this preposterous scenario, NIST had to ignore its own tests that showed that virtually none of the steel got hotter than 500 degrees f. It had to claim that somehow the planes took out many core columns, despite the fact that only a direct hit by an engine would have been likely to do so, and that the chances of this happening even once are fairly low. It had to preposterously allege that the plane that nicked the corner of the South Tower took out more core columns than the one that hit the North Tower almost dead center. It had to tweak all the parameters till they screamed bloody murder and say that the steel was far weaker than it actually was, the fire was far hotter than it actually was, the sagging was far greater than it actually was, and so on. And so NIST hallucinated a computer-generated fantasy scenario for "collapse initiation"--the failure of a few floors."

"But how do you get from the failure of a few floors to total collapse at free-fall speed of the entire structure? The short answer: You don't. Anyone with the slightest grasp of the laws of physics understands that even if all of the vertical supports on a few floors somehow failed catastrophically at exactly the same moment--a virtually impossible event, but one necessary to explain why the Towers would come straight down rather than toppling sideways--the top part of the building could not fall THROUGH the still-intact, highly robust lower part of the building, straight through the path of most resistance, just as fast as it would have fallen through thin air."

"Thus total free-fall collapse, even given NIST's ridiculous "initiation" scenario, is utterly impossible. The probability of it happening is exactly equal to the probability of the whole building suddenly falling upward and landing on the moon," concludes Barrett.

NIST have yet to properly address the sudden freefall collapse of WTC Building 7, which imploded on the late afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a jetliner.




yeah! what he said.


--------------------


http://dictionary.reference.com/


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InvisibleScratcher
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7538396 - 10/20/07 06:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

in this picture, which would hit the ground first?



this is the thing; every time you see video of the towers collapsing, remind yourself that your gov wants you to believe that the incredible energy you see being released is causes solely be GRAVITY. your common sense should tell you that that is ridiculous.

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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Scratcher]
    #7538414 - 10/20/07 07:11 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Welcome...

to the OTHER side of the story:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
This is worth a read, it's always worth hearing the other side.
It explains building 7 as well.


I still haven't found out the explanation for the angle-cut steel posts though


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!

Edited by VisionsToReality (10/20/07 07:18 AM)

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7538417 - 10/20/07 07:14 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yah why would they use an angle cut? and why didn't the whole building lay on its side because of it?


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7538432 - 10/20/07 07:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i blame little green men from mars


--------------------
note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best :smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7538481 - 10/20/07 08:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
What I'd like to see is more footage from the pentagon of the plane that hit it. If they would just release the videos, then the accusations of a missile hitting it could be debunked.

However, considering America and every other fascist nation's history, and that operation Northwoods is a public fact, I suspect it's more probable that something besides a plane hit and penetrated multiple walls of the pentagon.




1. America isn't a fascist state and I find it likely you don't even know the definition of "fascism".

2. Show me some evidence that it was a missile. Simply saying that there's not enough evidence to prove it was a plane doesn't mean that a missile hit the Pentagon.

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7538486 - 10/20/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yeah thats funny because theirs not enough evidence to say it was a plane either so don't act like it was


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7538489 - 10/20/07 08:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

3. you are speaking to morons, there is no conspiracy

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7538491 - 10/20/07 08:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

makable8x8 said:
yeah thats funny because theirs not enough evidence to say it was a plane either so don't act like it was




Buy stock in Reynolds Wrap.

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Adom]
    #7538501 - 10/20/07 08:16 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

cuss your gunna buy it all????

because you know, your a tinfoil hat yourself saying its a plane with no proof. but yah since george said it was its THE FUCKING WORD OF GOD.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7538506 - 10/20/07 08:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

In industry, when they want to soften steel, they heat it to 200-300'C for a while. The longer or hotter you heat it, the weaker it becomes.

A candle flame is 300-400'C, quite a bit less than a raging kerosene inferno.

I have no problem believing that the heat of the fire weakened the structural steel, leading to a collapse.

The planes brought down the Twin Towers, I buy that.

What I'm questioning is how the attacks came about, and who knew what.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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Offlined33p
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7538512 - 10/20/07 08:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread makes me sad. Why do good people have to be retarded?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7538532 - 10/20/07 08:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think I know what happened. I don't think the government of my country did this to it's own citizens and managed a cover-up. I do think it's terrible and needs to be prevented and also hate modern politik. The modern media fed this craze of none-sense as far as I'm concerned.

I believe it's the work of fundamentalist assholes who believe in the Koran instead of the Bible. I think it's all simple, box cutters, hate, fear, etc...

I do believe some our government spooks let this one slip, not believing it would happen, but I do not think it was an organized event, unless you think 3rd world religious spooks understand that word.

The End

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7538722 - 10/20/07 09:57 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
yeah thats funny because theirs not enough evidence to say it was a plane either so don't act like it was




There is much more evidence showing that it was a plane than it was not, so that's what I'm going to believe until I see evidence otherwise.

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Offlinecube talk
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7538727 - 10/20/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The fact that the pentagon got hit by one of these "767's" which are huge i might add, and it only had a hole in it like 20 by 30 feet that got smaller and smaller as the aircraft got farther and farther into the building is enough for me.


...was a fucking missle not an aircraft.


--------------------

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Offlined33p
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: cube talk]
    #7538735 - 10/20/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cube talk said:
The fact that the pentagon got hit by one of these "767's" which are huge i might add, and it only had a hole in it like 20 by 30 feet that got smaller and smaller as the aircraft got farther and farther into the building is enough for me.


...was a fucking missle not an aircraft.




Where the fuck do you think babies come from? Storks?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: cube talk]
    #7538736 - 10/20/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Of course it get smaller as it goes in. DO you think the plane was going to remain intact when it hit the building?

Anyways, once again you show no evidence that it was a missile, only misleading evidence that it wasn't a plane.

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OfflineLeanin
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7538750 - 10/20/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

has anyone seen all the videos, press and private, of the planes going into the towers? christ people.

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Leanin]
    #7538779 - 10/20/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Do those same people understand a plane is a fucking beer can held together by paint?


No they are idiots.

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OfflineLeanin
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Adom]
    #7538801 - 10/20/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

exactly, a jumbo jet is not going to fly through the towers rofl.

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OfflineAlCapwn
ID Reset, take that subpoena


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Adom]
    #7538807 - 10/20/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

These are pretty much unverifiable. What does puzzle me is the freefalling. Makes no sense.


--------------------
Huuuuurrrrrr!

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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7538812 - 10/20/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, while we're at it I thought I'd mention this....

....the moon landing was faked.















:tinfoil:


--------------------
You invented the wheel....You push the motherfucker!!

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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #7538817 - 10/20/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

WE KNOW EVERYTHING - JESUS CHRIST

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OfflineOracle Of Delphi
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7538940 - 10/20/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

VisionsToReality said:
Welcome...

to the OTHER side of the story:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
This is worth a read, it's always worth hearing the other side.
It explains building 7 as well.


I still haven't found out the explanation for the angle-cut steel posts though




http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200704/20070404_Pop_Mechanics_Liar.htm

PM caught lying.
Seriously, can you believe a Hearst owned company on anything ? Not me Folks.
<adjusts tin foil hat>


--------------------


http://dictionary.reference.com/


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB] * 1
    #7538957 - 10/20/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The reason so many people believe these nutty conspiracy theories is that they don't bother to educate themselves as to how flawed (and in many cases, outright dishonest) the information "supporting" these theories is. It takes time and some effort -- time and effort a lot of people don't care to expend.

For example, the whole WTC 7 conspiracy theory is nonsense. That building was very badly damaged when the twin towers collapsed. It had a huge gash twenty stories high ripped out of one of its corners. There are photos showing this available on the web. There are also interviews with firefighters describing the raging fire that burned for six hours in that building, the creaking and crashing coming from the building as the day wore on, the progressive bulging of the damaged side before the teams were pulled out of the building in anticipation of its collapse.

As for those "suspicious" angle cut beams in that photo, come on, people! Use some common sense here. It is obvious that this picture was taken long, LONG after the towers came down. Weeks at least. No enormous piles of twisted girders, no dust covering everything, no smoke rising from the ground. The clean up operation has obviously been under way for quite some time. Did it ever occur to you that maybe -- just maybe -- part of the cleanup operation might have involved using cutting torches to disentangle twisted and precariously balanced girders?

As for the Pentagon "missile" nonsense, that one is so full of holes it's embarrassing. The biggest stumbling block is the fact (and yes, folks, it is a FACT) that the remains of the passengers have been positively identified through DNA analysis. As well, of course, personal effects, luggage, purses, laptops etc, were recovered. And there is no shortage of photos of aircraft parts from landing gear to turbofan hubs available.

For those of you who are really interested in following up on this, go to any of dozens of debunking sites out there which convincingly handle all these details and much more. Be prepared though to be shocked at the blatant lying, twisting of quotes, suppression of photos, etc. which Loose Change, Alex Jones and the other "Truthers" routinely engage in to get y'all to swallow their koolaid.

Here are links to just two such sites. There are dozens more out there.

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

There's enough there to keep you busy for days. But my guess is few if any will bother even clicking the links, let alone read the whole sites through. "That's too much work, man... why would Alex Jones and Dylan Avery lie to me?"



Phred


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OfflineJunkFood
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: d33p]
    #7539087 - 10/20/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
This thread makes me sad. Why do good people have to be retarded?




This attitude is really fucking stupid: As if you know anything, you puny little civilian.

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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: automan]
    #7539276 - 10/20/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



the new plans, see the eagles nest, it will have a statue of atlas in the center of a fountain of concentric circles, 2 towers like the two pillars of Hercules.  The gate way to atlantis, atlantis has been portrayed as the water city layed out in a circular plan of alternating water and land, also plots out the diagram of a worm hole or black hole.

I just watched some video, lol :morefoil:

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Offlinebluedolphin
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Cheezit]
    #7539331 - 10/20/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm surprised there are so many people who jump down the throat of people who believe the story not spread by the mainstream media. And then act condescending towards those who have gone out of their way to verify the truth.

Comment about tin foil hats and stuff like that only shows how close minded you are.

I guess it comes down to, how much does it mean to you to be able to trust our government?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Jack86]
    #7539345 - 10/20/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jack86 said:
conspiracy theories are fucking disgusting, some people really have lost the plot.
this isn't a episode of 24.
i also find it quite sad that people often go on about these conspiracy theories , bit disrespectful to the thousands that died?
:rolleyes:
p.s i'm not a government spy trying to throw people of the scent




just wanted to correct your spelling and grammar errors
'cause your original post sucked
in quality and in meaning


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: meatcakeman]
    #7539353 - 10/20/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SAW THE FUCKING AIRPLANES HIT THE BUILDINGS.

IN PERSON.

WHAT THE FUCK.

Geezus Christ, but people are fucking stupid.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: bluedolphin]
    #7539363 - 10/20/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bluedolphin said:


I guess it comes down to, how much does it mean to you to be able to trust our government?




It has nothing to do with trust. It's about what happened and what didn't happen. Nothing more, nothing less.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7539952 - 10/20/07 04:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the way i see it, the administration is not credible whatsoever. they haven't earned my trust, and taking evidence that could prove their innocence doesn't help one bit. until they prove otherwise, yeah, i'll believe that they were responsible for the demolitions. their is nothing in our governments history that would suggest they have the interests of the people in mind. fuck this country once i'm ready i'm bouncing to europe

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7539971 - 10/20/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
1. America isn't a fascist state and I find it likely you don't even know the definition of "fascism".

2. Show me some evidence that it was a missile. Simply saying that there's not enough evidence to prove it was a plane doesn't mean that a missile hit the Pentagon.




1: http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm

2: I didn't say a missile hit it. Please, if you're going to accuse me of saying something, make sure I said it. It could be implied but I never said "A missile hit the pentagon" (unless, for the sake of pedantry, you could a plane as being a missile, which I would agree with) As there's no meaningful footage of whatever hit it made public, I cannot say. I can speculate, but my speculation is not something I will divulge.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7539975 - 10/20/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Lets say that building seven was badly damaged and the gasoline from the generators was the cause of the collapse. The damage would be sporadic and therefor the collapse would NOT be uniform. It would come down in sections, piece by piece, according to the damage done to the structures integrity. As you can see in the video of the building seven collapse that is not what happened. What happened was a uniform free fall collapse indicative of a controlled demolition (to blow the whole support structure simultaneously).

The facts that the 9/11 commission avoided this topic and how mass media networks poorly covered it also attest to the idea that this whole fiasco (the war, the Patriot Act, the control, etc.) went/goes down.

I'm not trying to say that people that disagree with me are ignorant of the facts, but in my perspective it is hard to argue with these and other fishy subjects (ie. why the tapes of all the Pentagon attacks were confiscated when none of the WTC attacks were).


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: blkjkrabbit]
    #7539976 - 10/20/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blkjkrabbit said:
the way i see it, the administration is not credible whatsoever. they haven't earned my trust, and taking evidence that could prove their innocence doesn't help one bit. until they prove otherwise, yeah, i'll believe that they were responsible for the demolitions. their is nothing in our governments history that would suggest they have the interests of the people in mind. fuck this country once i'm ready i'm bouncing to europe




Sorry bud, the tyranny we have had here is even older and more prevalent, it's just more subtle*

*sometimes.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: blkjkrabbit]
    #7540077 - 10/20/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blkjkrabbit said:
the way i see it, the administration is not credible whatsoever. they haven't earned my trust, and taking evidence that could prove their innocence doesn't help one bit. until they prove otherwise, yeah, i'll believe that they were responsible for the demolitions. their is nothing in our governments history that would suggest they have the interests of the people in mind. fuck this country once i'm ready i'm bouncing to europe




Don't let the door hit you on the way out.... but the boobytrap that impails you up the ass, make sure to trip that.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: d33p]
    #7540369 - 10/20/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

lets say the building was badly damaged and they decided to demo it to save lives...why wouldn't they report that?? Because they were hiding something. You can't have 2+ pages full of coincidences....like how our gov just happened to have every fighter jet that could have shot down them planes half way across the map, what about our anti air guns?? oh thats right they just happened to be disabled to right? Line after line its just more and more bullshit how do people not see that?

and yes theirs alot of conspiracy theorys out their and they don't all make sense, but the fucking story in the papers don't make sense!!! Were all tinfoil hats because non of use have the facts!! And who's hiding them facts?? the fucking gov. WHY!! because they are guilty of SOMETHING!

as for the planes flying into the building, its not really a question of if they flew into it, its a question who/what was flying it...this question comes up after seeing all the bogus stuff that surrounds it.

we see how screwed the minds in power are in relation to drugs, health care, all of that bullshit...how to we all the sudden think they didn't screw us on 9/11 too for their money?


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Edited by makaveli8x8 (10/20/07 06:47 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7540465 - 10/20/07 07:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm




What a crock of shit. Almost all of those things can be construed to be part of any government in the history of mankind.

Also, I guess you didn't say a missile hit it. In that case, if wasn't a plane or a missile, what was it? A meteor?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7540488 - 10/20/07 07:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Screw you" on 9/11?

How did you get screwed? You're alive. And if the government WAS actually smart enough to orchestrate the entire ordeal, something they have shown no signs of being even remotely capable of, how does the truth campaign plan on stopping them? I just saw a fucking banner in a laundromat that said that this government "planned" 9/11 to fuel their neocon agenda of making the US, Canada, and Mexio into one country. That kind of retarded drivel helps nothing, nor does it make sense. Truth ralliers hang out at places like HempFest, where no one gets anything done because they're there to buy homer bongs.

Those reasons, among more, are why I will never take the Truth campaign seriously. If conspiracy theorists could actually make a point worth a dime, I might listen.

What Phred said is some of the only logical thinking I've read in this whole thread.


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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: lukeboots]
    #7540548 - 10/20/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Personally, I have no clue what happened. Why?

1. I wasn't there.
2. I didn't personally collect any evidence supporting any particular theory
3. Since I wasn't involved in this in any way, nor did I collect any evidence personally, I can't make a determination one way or another.

In short, I trust no one. Everyone is a liar, even if they believe what they are saying. While the physics arguments are kind of convincing, I must admit I am not formally trained in physics and therefore cannot allow myself to make a decision when I am totally uninformed.

Some items of importance from 9/11
1. It galvanized fundamentalists
2. It allowed the government to cut domestic spending and pour all of our money into foreign engagements
3. People are obviously SO distrustful of the American government that they are not willing to believe a word anyone says.

Basically, our perceptions are reality. There's no way anyone here can say FOR SURE what happened, because no one was involved at every level and no one collected evidence in person. There really aren't a lot of unbiased reports on the topic. All we can do now is act on the consequences of what has happened, which I propose to be the following:

1. We need to take power back from the executive
2. We either need to draft people (I am opposed) or go home (I am unopposed, I like the people I know in the military and I don't want to see them go to war. Again. For like, the millionth time.)
3. We have to realize that our foreign policy actions bite us in the ass twenty years later, and stop being relentlessly stupid. That means no war on Iran. Making war recruits terrorists. So we should stop that.

Any way you cut it, it's in the past. We must deal with the ECHOES of the past, not the past itself. This is the essential premise of major historical event analysis.


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While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7540558 - 10/20/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Lets say that building seven was badly damaged and the gasoline from the generators was the cause of the collapse. The damage would be sporadic and therefor the collapse would NOT be uniform. It would come down in sections, piece by piece, according to the damage done to the structures integrity. As you can see in the video of the building seven collapse that is not what happened. What happened was a uniform free fall collapse indicative of a controlled demolition (to blow the whole support structure simultaneously).

The facts that the 9/11 commission avoided this topic and how mass media networks poorly covered it also attest to the idea that this whole fiasco (the war, the Patriot Act, the control, etc.) went/goes down.

I'm not trying to say that people that disagree with me are ignorant of the facts, but in my perspective it is hard to argue with these and  other fishy subjects (ie. why the tapes of all the Pentagon attacks were confiscated when none of the WTC attacks were).




:thumbup:

Why hide stuff unless you have something to hide?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7540562 - 10/20/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: lukeboots]
    #7540623 - 10/20/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

johnny wax- so you havn't seen the videos about the usa,canada,mexico merger?? I have my opinions on that too but just curious if you just seen that flier in the landermat and thought (thats crazy)...or did you actually google it after you seen it??


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7540633 - 10/20/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I've only seen the flier (flyer?).



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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7540743 - 10/20/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nero did allow Rome to Burn, so he could blame the Xtians.

The Boston Tea Party was staged by the British, and Franklin worked both sides.

Hitler burned the Reichstag, and blamed it on the Communists.

Roosevelt had the Radar at Pearl Harbor shut down for "repairs" when he knew Japan was gearing up for attack.

History repeats itself folks...

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Middleman]
    #7540788 - 10/20/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Unfortunately there is no evidential basis for it. It is pure speculation which collapses under scrutiny and common sense.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7540832 - 10/20/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

kriminalelement writes:

Quote:

1. I wasn't there.
2. I didn't personally collect any evidence supporting any particular theory
3. Since I wasn't involved in this in any way, nor did I collect any evidence personally, I can't make a determination one way or another.




You can say that about pretty much everything in life. Do you have an opinion on whether or not men walked on the moon in the late Sixties and early Seventies? How about the invasion of Normandy in 1944? No opinion on that one way or the other?

Quote:

Some items of importance from 9/11
1. It galvanized fundamentalists
2. It allowed the government to cut domestic spending and pour all of our money into foreign engagements
3. People are obviously SO distrustful of the American government that they are not willing to believe a word anyone says.




Umm... no. Domestic spending hasn't been cut since September 11, 2001. Quite the reverse, in fact. It has increased far too much since then.

Quote:

Basically, our perceptions are reality.




Ummm... no. Reality is reality, whether you perceive it accurately or inaccurately. Reality is sublimely indifferent to your perception of it -- whether that perception be accurate or faulty.

Quote:

1. We need to take power back from the executive




You mean SEIZE power from the Executive. That would require a major reworking of the most fundamental tenets of the US Constitution. Good luck with that.

Quote:

Making war recruits terrorists.




That is not impossible, but it is certainly not a given. What is not known (and is innately unknowable) is whether the act of killing off terrorists results in more n00b terrorists being recruited than veteran terrorists killed. My take on it (which I freely admit cannot be proven correct) is it doesn't.

But none of the above points have anything to do with whether or not Islamic fanatic nutjobs brought down the towers and fucked up the Pentagon. You seem to think it doesn't matter whether it was Jihadis or your own government -- the lessons we should take away from it are the same either way. That -- to put it as gently as I possibly can -- is incorrect. It makes all the difference in the world.




Phred


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Middleman] * 1
    #7540858 - 10/20/07 09:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Nero did allow Rome to Burn, so he could blame the Xtians.

The Boston Tea Party was staged by the British, and Franklin worked both sides.

Hitler burned the Reichstag, and blamed it on the Communists.

Roosevelt had the Radar at Pearl Harbor shut down for "repairs" when he knew Japan was gearing up for attack.

History repeats itself folks...




The Boston Tea Party was in no way, shape, or form perpetrated by the British.

Those Jap planes were picked up on radar, but it was assumed they were a group of replacement planes expected in from the West Coast. The stupidity involved was that the Jap planes were coming from the total opposite direction.

But hey, you got two out of four.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7541139 - 10/20/07 11:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You can say that about pretty much everything in life. Do you have an opinion on whether or not men walked on the moon in the late Sixties and early Seventies? How about the invasion of Normandy in 1944? No opinion on that one way or the other?




Can't ever say for sure. However, those events had historical aftermaths that have been documented by primary sources, just like 9/11. I'm not saying anything didn't HAPPEN, I'm just saying I don't know all the details. It is important to deal with the aftermath of events, just as it is important to deal with how those events happened.

Quote:

Ummm... no. Reality is reality, whether you perceive it accurately or inaccurately. Reality is sublimely indifferent to your perception of it -- whether that perception be accurate or faulty.




This is completely true. I totally agree with you 100%. Sadly, people do not operate under those conditions. They accept their PERCEPTION of reality, and act on it, as though it was reality.

Ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land"? There are people in this novel that will only accept as truth what they see for themselves. This prevents them from making judgments about reality by inference. Most people can't do this. I can't do this, but I make an attempt. It is very sad that many people act on perceptions instead of objective truth. So you and I are completely simpatico about that. Reality is reality. Period. Just like genetically, race doesn't exist. But in REALITY, people are racist and the issue of race permeates society. It's an interesting paradox.

Quote:

You seem to think it doesn't matter whether it was Jihadis or your own government -- the lessons we should take away from it are the same either way. That -- to put it as gently as I possibly can -- is incorrect. It makes all the difference in the world.





Props to you. Again, I totally agree. IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. And the evidence that maybe the government was in on it.... is out there, but not yet verifiable. I certainly don't accept the government's version, but since I can't adequately explain it to myself in a way I am confident is TRUTHFUL, a way that WOULDN'T be substituting reality for my own perception, I'm not going to foist my opinions on other people or myself at this juncture. Maybe in the future things will become clearer to me, but I am very young and only beginning my journey into the realm of conspiracy theories.

The important thing to do is act on the reality that we are given now, because terrible, disastrous things are happening. That's all I'm saying. I think debate over the issue will continue, and I applaud that, I just think that there's too many diametrically opposed views held by armchair historians for me to believe anything solidly quite yet.

Incidentally, don't put words in my mouth. If the government (or whoever) was in on it they should have their dicks torn off and stuffed in their own mouths. (That was sort of a joke) But seriously, it's an issue. My point was for us to stop getting caught up in the minor details and look at the issue as a whole. I'm in school, and I notice a lot of people willing to debate this topic and pass out fliers, but none of them show up for political rallies or march against war, etc. I think we should be consciously trying to galvanize other people for productive action against things that are EMERGENT in nature.

I'm sorry if I seemed like I was disagreeing with what you've said. I think that what you're saying makes total sense. I was trying to add to the discussion and possibly broaden it, not refute any ideas that other people hold. I think that most of you hold those ideas for completely sound reasons, and I think your ideas made very much sense. You see, that's the problem. Your ideas sound logical, and so do other people's. But I'm no expert on the subject, so why should I believe one way or the other personally??? (Actually, what you said sounds especially logical, and thankyou for your efforts in debunkery, it's always nice to hear something besides what my fellow students are constantly trying in vain to brainwash me with)


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

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Edited by kriminalelement (10/20/07 11:49 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7541189 - 10/20/07 11:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hell is made up of three types of people

1)captives
2)actors (who try and keep the captives from knowing they're in hell and they dole out the punishment)
3) those in charge


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7541325 - 10/21/07 12:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Type 911 Protests and see what comes up. People wouldn't be banding together like they are if "it is only pure speculation that collapses under scrutiny and common sense". All over the world intelligent people are getting together and raising awareness about the lie thats been perpetrated by the government.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7541618 - 10/21/07 04:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
hell is made up of three types of people

1)captives
2)actors (who try and keep the captives from knowing they're in hell and they dole out the punishment)
3) those in charge




did you get that from the quote in my sig :rofl:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7541620 - 10/21/07 04:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Type 911 Protests and see what comes up. People wouldn't be banding together like they are if "it is only pure speculation that collapses under scrutiny and common sense". All over the world intelligent people are getting together and raising awareness about the lie thats been perpetrated by the government.




prob is our gov is ruling us instead of being an extention of us. Their tech is so far advanced now that its impossible for a civil war to happen. The most that could ever happen is a riot and them get put down pretty quick.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7541631 - 10/21/07 05:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm




What a crock of shit. Almost all of those things can be construed to be part of any government in the history of mankind.

Also, I guess you didn't say a missile hit it. In that case, if wasn't a plane or a missile, what was it? A meteor?




I don't know. That's why I would like to see video footage from what should be the most observed building in america. There must be dozens of recordings from all different angles showing what hit it. And there was the nearby fuel station and hotel that had recorded something (or nothing) on their CCTV cameras. Are we allowed to see those? No, the FBI have seized them.

Why have they seized them? If a plane hit like they say, and if the video footage shows them hitting, then they should have released the video footage six years ago on the very same day of the incident.

As for "What a crock of shit. Almost all of those things can be construed to be part of any government in the history of mankind." Well, you just keep on thinking whatever makes you happy, right up until they slam you into a detention camp

Quote:

Halliburton Detention Camps For Political Subversives

Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | February 1 2006

In another shining example of modern day corporate fascism, it was announced recently that Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root had been awarded a $385 million dollar contract by Homeland Security to construct detention and processing facilities in the event of a national emergency.

The language of the preamble to the agreement veils the program with talk of temporary migrant holding centers, but it is made clear that the camps will also be used "as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency."

Discussions of federal concentration camps is no longer the rhetoric of paranoid Internet conspiracy theorists, it is mainstream news.

Under the enemy combatant designation anyone at the behest of the US government, even if they are a US citizen, can be kidnapped and placed in an internment facility forever without trial. Jose Padilla, an American citizen, has spent over four years in a Navy brig and is only just now getting a trial.

In 2002, FEMA sought bids from major real estate and engineering firms to construct giant internment facilities in the case of a chemical, biological or nuclear attack or a natural disaster.

Okanogan County Commissioner Dave Schulz went public three years ago with his contention that his county was set to be a location for one of the camps.

Alex Jones has attended numerous military urban warfare training drills across the US where role players were used to simulate arresting American citizens and taking them to internment camps.

The move towards the database state in the US and the UK, where every offence is arrestable and DNA records of every suspect, even if later proven innocent, are permanently kept on record, is the only tool necessary to create a master list of 'subversives' that would be subject to internment in a manufactured time of national emergency.

The national ID card is also intended to be used for this purpose, just as the Nazis used early IBM computer punch card technology to catalogue lists of homosexuals, gypsies and Jews before the round-ups began.

Section 44 of the Terrorism Act in Britain enables police to obtain name and address details of anyone they choose, whether they are acting suspiciously or not. Those details remain on a database forever. To date, 119,000 names of political activists have been taken and this is a figure that will skyrocket once the post 7/7 figures are taken into account. At the height of the Iraq war protests, around a million people marched across the country. However, most of these people were taking part in a political protest for the first time and as a one off. Even if we take a figure of half, 500,000 people being politically active in Britain, that means that the government has already registered around a quarter of political activists in the UK.

In truth the number is probably above half because we are not factoring in those already on MI5 'subversive' lists and those listed after the 7/7 bombings, when the powers were used even more broadly.

Concurrently in the US, a new provision in the extended Patriot Act bill would allow Secret Service agents to arrest and jail protesters accused of breaching any security perimeter, even if the President or any other protected official isn't present. The definition of 'free speech zones' can be shifted around loosely and this would open the floodgates for protesters to be grabbed and hauled away in any circumstance at the whim of the Secret Service.

During the 2004 RNC protests, thousands of New Yorkers were arrested en masse in indiscriminate round-ups and taken to Pier 57 (pictured), a condemned, asbestos poisoned old bus depot, where they were imprisoned without charge for up to 24 hours or more.

The existence and development of internment camps are solely intended to be used to round up en masse and imprison 'political dissidents' (anyone who isn't prepared to lick government boots) after a simulated tactical nuke or biological attack on a major US or European city.




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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7541726 - 10/21/07 07:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What rights have you had taken away from you since Bush became president?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7541731 - 10/21/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I lost the right to talk to a life-long friend when his chopper went up in a sand-storm and went boom on the ground.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7541741 - 10/21/07 07:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
What rights have you had taken away from you since Bush became president?



besides freedom of the press -a nd privacy rights - none

- but Habeas Corpus has been taken away from EVERYONE - and you better pray to your god you never get suspected of anything.
OoD


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Oracle Of Delphi]
    #7541747 - 10/21/07 07:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How has the freedom of press been taken away?

Also, show me how Habeus Corpus has been taken away from everyone. Not just non-citizens, but everyone. There has to be a bill or executive decision that does this.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7541778 - 10/21/07 07:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

expand your news sources beyond MSNBCBS / FOX
then come back.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Oracle Of Delphi]
    #7541807 - 10/21/07 08:05 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Being presumptuous makes you look like an asshole. I don't watch the news on either of those channel. In fact, other than BBC, I get my news from the papers and monthly publications.

Are you going to answer my questions?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Asante]
    #7541842 - 10/21/07 08:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Have any of you who belive the consircy bullshit visited ground zero?? what about actually loosing loved ones in the twin towers?

After you go through both those things, then you try come and say you think it was a goverment set up...
It wasnt...
George Bush may be a shitty president but all the top end govt. officials arnt going to all agree to kill innocent Americans! THis is not Hitler were talking about...

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: jccc]
    #7541867 - 10/21/07 08:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

uhu its not??? have you looked outside lately?? Anyone caught using drugs is strung up and shot...sounds exactly like hitler to me...

and conspiracy theorys has nothing to do with the deceaced. if you read what i wrote earlier you will see i made a good point of that. To close your eye's to all the lie's, and pretend its ok we were lied to during a time when many died(you can not say lies did not happen, well ok im sure someone will)....is what is bullshit.

and apparently you havn't been watching the last 10 years and how shit works now. You follow your ORDERS! and if you don't what do you think will happen? and you think some of those in the gov weren't lied to either??

ill give you an example,
1. we could have hired someone outside the usa to do dirty work
2. you lie and make a good reason to demo a building then give out gag orders.

If you try to squeal what would happen? would it even make the news?? nope didn't think so, for the same reason you never see mj research ect. on tv...its not allowed.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7541884 - 10/21/07 08:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

also have you ever played a game like sim city?  when you get to the top, the little mice look really small right?  you start to think about the "greater good", we can all starve in 5 years and die...or we can blow a building-invade ireq and gain control of the world....that is whats happening by the way incase anyone missed that too.

anyone who wants to live free is a terrorist...and everyday corperations are chissling away at the choices we can make.

For instince, its not going to be to long before were all switched over to led's right?  Well what happens when they ban the red and blue wavelength because its "unhealthy"....if you can figuer out my point, then you should have a grasp of our future in slave corp america.
wait were's my tinfoil hat, shit where did i put that? oh here it is :lifesaver: oh here it is


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7541888 - 10/21/07 08:45 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Anyone caught using drugs is strung up and shot




Uhhhhhh, no?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7541900 - 10/21/07 08:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

dam don't you guys watch cops wtf? how many people have DIED because of the "WAR" on drugs??? and fuck if you ask me dieing from a bullet during a raid would be a god send compaired to 50 years in prison.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7541989 - 10/21/07 09:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You didn't say anything about raids. You said anyone caught using drugs is either shot or hung up.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7542008 - 10/21/07 09:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and that makes a difference why? they bust wrong houses and kill animals and old ladys...even if your just using, what happens on cops after they pull someone over? alot of fucked up shit. I'm about to go to bed so ill use my conspiracy theory skills and predict your going to say...well its not that they were using drugs its that they ran..etc etc.

my response is that it doesn't matter what that guy does, all he is doing is responding to a Hitler run country, what did the Jews do when they seen Hitler and company? they ran and died instead of facing concentration camps. It is a war...they call it that, and people die and its usually the people with the drugs.


--------------------
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We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7542017 - 10/21/07 09:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Drugs are illegal in 90+% of the countries in the world. Does that make them all fascist as well?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7542043 - 10/21/07 09:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Drugs are illegal in 90+% of the countries in the world. Does that make them all fascist as well?




The United States is the most powerful country in the world. If it didn't want drugs in its country, it wouldn't have drugs in the country.

Addiction is a very important tool for the government these days guys. Cigarettes are bad for your health and circulation, who knows what else (going to look into it) and I know alcohol really screws up your brain and memory.

They dumb down and weigh down the population into lethargy using all sorts of different methods. Take a look at yourself and realize all the shit you shouldn't be doing to yourself (fast food, hangovers, hours of useless TV) and start to become aware that the people on top.. want you to be doing that.



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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7542049 - 10/21/07 09:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, because its authoritarianism.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Ego Death]
    #7542073 - 10/21/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Authoritarianism is inherent in gov't.

Drugs obviously should be legal, but there are many more important invasions of our freedom to be worrying about.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7542204 - 10/21/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

it comes down to globolization and the new world order. It wasn't our government. These people are above that in their ways. They are the corporations and wealthy that buy people. They are the contractors and the info structure, the business end of everything. The power plants, the oil refineries, the hydro electric damns. They sell a country on why it's good, and how they will benefit. The only ones that benefit are the builders and the owners. Countries left in debt. If they don't pay up they off the leader, if they off the leader they then install a new one that will follow lead. they look for a country that has valuable assets. Install disrupt corrupt then take over the economics of that region.

For example Jaime Roldós, president of Ecuador, and Omar Torrijos, president of Panama both assassinated in fiery crashes. Why because they did not support the ideals carried out by the top bankers and corporate heads.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7542243 - 10/21/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
What rights have you had taken away from you since Bush became president?




In the time that Bush has been president, we (as in, those resident in the UK) are forbidden from forming protests. Unless you apply for a permit, and agree to stick to only the area the police tell you. In other words, you can protest, as long as no one sees you.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7542285 - 10/21/07 11:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
What rights have you had taken away from you since Bush became president?




In the time that Bush has been president, we (as in, those resident in the UK) are forbidden from forming protests. Unless you apply for a permit, and agree to stick to only the area the police tell you. In other words, you can protest, as long as no one sees you.




And what of the massive American anti-war protests that transpired in this country? Never saw any of it on the mass news networks.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7542310 - 10/21/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Well, Bush isn't responsible for what happens in your country.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7542334 - 10/21/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Well, Bush isn't responsible for what happens in your country.




Fuck me sideways with some cultural reference. You don't say!

As for the protesting being illegal, I hope this article makes it more clear. Fewer and fewer places are people allowed to protest, which works in a similar fashion to the free speech zones in your country (I'll make the assumption that you are from the US)


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7542584 - 10/21/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Well, Bush isn't responsible for what happens in your country.




Ironically, Bush isn't responsible for what happens in your country, either.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7542820 - 10/21/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I love how all of you guys talk down to everyone for having their ideas formed by watching propaganda/bullshit/mainstream news sources, while you take the other side of things and let your ideas be formed by conspiracy/nut/bullshit news sources.

It's all the same. It's all having your ideas formed by someone else, just different ideas.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7542852 - 10/21/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No, it isn't the same.

The mass media twists and covers the truth to their fit with their agenda.
The 'conspiracy nuts' present aspects of a given scenario that the CNNs and FOXs don't want you to see.

Could you address some of the points I have raised instead of sidestepping them? If you don't, I am sorry, but I will have to start calling you Tucker Carlson. :grin:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7542862 - 10/21/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
No, it isn't the same.

The mass media twists and covers the truth to their fit with their agenda.
The 'conspiracy nuts' present aspects of a given scenario that the CNNs and FOXs don't want you to see.

Could you address some of the points I have raised instead of sidestepping them? If you don't, I am sorry, but I will have to start calling you Tucker Carlson. :grin:




Oh ok, so the one you don't like is wrong.

How diluted are you?

Btw, I don't listen to either. Its all pollution in my eyes.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7542891 - 10/21/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Attacking the medium (myself) rather than the ideas expressed is a FOX news staple. Come on, man.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7542942 - 10/21/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Accepting one side of spectrum blindly is just as bad either way.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7542976 - 10/21/07 02:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SAW THE FUCKING AIRPLANES HIT THE BUILDINGS.

IN PERSON.

WHAT THE FUCK.

Geezus Christ, but people are fucking stupid.




Yeah. Lots of people report hearing explosions all over the buildings too right before they collapsed. And lots of people report not seeing an airplane hitting the pentagon, but what looked like a missile.. what's your point? I don't think anyone denies that airplanes hit the towers, what is in serious question is what made them collapse to the ground at nearly free-fall speed exactly like in a controlled demolition. No one has been able to provide evidence yet that buildings such as the world trade towers would collapse completely, simply due to an airplane hitting it.

And all these events set the stage for the War in Iraq and the Patriot Act (which violates a long list of constitutional rights) and also sets the stage for declaring Martial Law.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7542980 - 10/21/07 02:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Redstorm,

On what do you base that?


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Edited by WScott (10/21/07 02:04 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543004 - 10/21/07 02:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SAW THE FUCKING AIRPLANES HIT THE BUILDINGS.

IN PERSON.

WHAT THE FUCK.

Geezus Christ, but people are fucking stupid.




Yeah. Lots of people report hearing explosions all over the buildings too right before they collapsed. And lots of people report not seeing an airplane hitting the pentagon, but what looked like a missile.. what's your point?




rofl @ that

did u even watch the video of the buildings collapse? it started at the top and went down, like a chain reaction.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Leanin]
    #7543013 - 10/21/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Uh yeah. And I also saw little explosions in the videos all over the sides right before and as it was coming down. And it went from a 110+ story building to rubble in ~11 seconds, falling at nearly free-fall speed into the sub-basement levels, just like in a controlled demolition. Chain reaction indeed.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... *DELETED* [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543017 - 10/21/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Script

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm] * 1
    #7543019 - 10/21/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Authoritarianism is inherent in gov't.




How do you figure?

It is my impression that no matter how you dress it, the nature of government is authority.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: PJDIDDLE]
    #7543033 - 10/21/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Script said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:
Uh yeah. And I also saw little explosions in the videos all over the sides right before and as it was coming down.




lets see that.






Just one video of it.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: PJDIDDLE]
    #7543041 - 10/21/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's terrorists. Go back to sleep America, we have everything under control.
We're going to need to take some of your constitutional rights away, but it's for "National Security", and you'll cooperate if you know what's good for you, if you don't... well you're just a terrorist.

Script, took all of about 2 seconds to find, one of about a billion videos
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/demolition.squibs.wtc1.wmv
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/evidence_of_explosives.htm
http://www.serendipity.li/wtc5.htm

I still am waiting for someone to show me evidence that towers specifically built to withstand the impact of a 707, would collapse completely being hit with a 767, as that has never happened before. (And yes, skyscrapers have been hit by airliners before - they just caught fire, they didn't collapse.)
There is much more evidence to support that the buildings were collapsed intentionally and until someone proves otherwise I am going to believe the most logical scenario.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543061 - 10/21/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

PS. Remember the Anthrax scare shortly after 911?

- Why were mostly journalists and politicians targetted? Journalists and politicians who were asking too many questions.

- Why did that specific strain of Anthrax come from a government controlled lab within the US?

Go back to sleep America.
The terrorists are coming to get you.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543093 - 10/21/07 02:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And lots of people report not seeing an airplane hitting the pentagon, but what looked like a missile.




Source?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7543096 - 10/21/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Redstorm,

On what do you base that?




I base it on the fact that either side could be wrong.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Clean]
    #7543100 - 10/21/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Clean said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Authoritarianism is inherent in gov't.




How do you figure?

It is my impression that no matter how you dress it, the nature of government is authority.




Isn't that what I just said?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543120 - 10/21/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Shroomism, the problem you have is that you are uncritically accepting the koolaid the Troofers are serving. Everything you have mentioned so far is either flatout wrong (the towers didn't collapse at "near free-fall speed", as just one example) or is readily explainable by simple application of the laws of physics.

I already posted these links earlier in the thread. I guess you missed them.


http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

These are just two of dozens of internet sites that convincingly handle every question I have seen raised in this thread. For that matter, they handle every question I've ever seen raised anywhere.

I swear if I read one more time about "near free-fall" speed and "explosive squibs" I'll lose it and seriously flame someone and end up getting banned.

What drives me nuts is the pious righteousness that those folks slinging the Troofer koolaid exhibit -- their insistence that the only reason no one takes their silliness seriously is that we're too lazy to look into the situation for ourselves, and content to lap up whatever BushCo spoonfeeds us. Well guess what, guys? The reverse is actually the case. Those of us who have actually expended more energy than sparking a bowl or two while gazing at some Unfastened Coins video on youtube; those of us who have actually expended some effort to find the answers to these same stupid questions posed over and over again, can do more than just parrot the same tired old "questions" prisonplanet and infowars trot out over and over and over again, we can actually answer them.

You guys claim all you are doing is looking for answers? Go to one of those links and read the answers. It's that simple.



Phred


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543149 - 10/21/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government.

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.

Every generation needs a new revolution.

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

Happy for us, that when we find our constitutions defective and insufficient to secure the happiness of our people, we can assemble with all the coolness of philosophers and set it to rights, while every other nation on earth must have recourse to arms to amend or to restore their constitutions.

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.

History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too.

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs.

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.

I do not take a single newspaper, nor read one a month, and I feel myself infinitely the happier for it.

I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master.

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.

I have seen enough of one war never to wish to see another.

I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.

If God is just, I tremble for my country.

If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.

Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.

In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.

Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people.

Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

No government ought to be without censors; and where the press is free no one ever will.

One man with courage is a majority.

Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it.

Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

Politics is such a torment that I advise everyone I love not to mix with it.

Power is not alluring to pure minds.

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.

The advertisement is the most truthful part of a newspaper.

The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

The earth belongs to the living, not to the dead.

The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.

We did not raise armies for glory or for conquest.

We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.

Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.

Wisdom I know is social. She seeks her fellows. But Beauty is jealous, and illy bears the presence of a rival.


- Thomas Jefferson.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7543154 - 10/21/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

And lots of people report not seeing an airplane hitting the pentagon, but what looked like a missile.




Source?



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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Phred]
    #7543169 - 10/21/07 02:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Shroomism, the problem you have is that you are uncritically accepting the koolaid the Troofers are serving. Everything you have mentioned so far is either flatout wrong (the towers didn't collapse at "near free-fall speed", as just one example) or is readily explainable by simple application of the laws of physics.

I already posted these links earlier in the thread. I guess you missed them.


http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

These are just two of dozens of internet sites that convincingly handle every question I have seen raised in this thread. For that matter, they handle every question I've ever seen raised anywhere.

I swear if I read one more time about "near free-fall" speed and "explosive squibs" I'll lose it and seriously flame someone and end up getting banned.

What drives me nuts is the pious righteousness that those folks slinging the Troofer koolaid exhibit -- their insistence that the only reason no one takes their silliness seriously is that we're too lazy to look into the situation for ourselves, and content to lap up whatever BushCo spoonfeeds us. Well guess what, guys? The reverse is actually the case. Those of us who have actually expended more energy than sparking a bowl or two while gazing at some Unfastened Coins video on youtube; those of us who have actually expended some effort to find the answers to these same stupid questions posed over and over again, can do more than just parrot the same tired old "questions" prisonplanet and infowars trot out over and over and over again, we can actually answer them.

You guys claim all you are doing is looking for answers? Go to one of those links and read the answers. It's that simple.



Phred




Thank you Phred. I always enjoy reading your posts.


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7543199 - 10/21/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"It was like a cruise missile with wings, went right there and slammed into the Pentagon," Mike Walter, an eyewitness, told CNN




Quote:

DNA is an organic molecule that is very fragile, easily destroyed by high temperatures. Not finding the large metallic pieces that would indicate a Boeing 757, the government explained that they were burned up in the intense blaze that consumed the aircraft. Then how does human tissue survive when 600 lb metal engines cannot? Can't have it both ways. So how trustworthy can the government evidence be?




Quote:

Two high profile radiation experts concur Pentagon strike involved use of a missile. Also Geiger counter readings right after the attack shows high levels of radiation 12 miles away from Pentagon crash site.

A radiation expert and high-ranking Army Major, who once headed the military's depleted uranium project, both contend the Pentagon was hit by missile, not a commercial jetliner, adding high radiation readings after the strike indicate depleted uranium also may have been used.

"I'm not an explosives or crash site expert, but I am highly knowledgeable in causes and effects related to nuclear radiation contamination. What happened at the Pentagon is highly suspicious, leading me to believe a missile with a depleted uranium warhead may have been used," said radiation expert Leuren Moret in a telephone conversation this week from her Berkeley, CA home.

Moret, who has spent a life time working in the nuclear field, first as a staff scientist at the Livermore Nuclear Weapons Laboratory in California, is now a member of The Radiation and Public Health Project (RPHP), a privately funded group studying the devastating effects of depleted uranium especially in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Regarding the missile theory, it is also backed up by retired Army Maj. Doug Rokke, a PhD educational physics and former top military expert banished from the Pentagon after the military failed to follow regulations regarding the use, clean up and medical treatment regarding the use of depleted uranium.

"When you look at the whole thing, especially the crash site void of airplane parts, the size of the hole left in the building and the fact the projectile's impact penetrated numerous concrete walls, it looks like the work of a missile," said Maj. Rokke from his Rantoul, IL home this week. "And when you look at the damage, it was obviously a missile. Also, if you look at the WTC and the disturbing flash hitting the tower right before the impact of the airplane, it also looks like a missile was used."

And to prove the government's jetliner theory is wrong, Moret said the quick actions of a friend near the Pentagon on the morning of 9/11, provide even more suspicion.

Moret recalls on the tragic morning that once she saw the jetliner strike the twin towers and then heard about the Pentagon crash, she immediately called a close friend in Alexandria VA, Dr. Janette Sherman.

Thinking radiation might be involved, she quickly asked Dr. Sherman, 77, a radiation expert and medical doctor who lived about 12 miles from the crash site, to get a Geiger counter reading.

What the pair of experts found is astonishing. What they found is not only astonishing but four years after 9/11, what's even more incredible is that their findings have been completely ignored by most everyone, including the Bush administration, the 9/11 Commission and the mainstream media, all who appear more interested in rubber stamping the official 9/11 story then getting at the real truth.

"Dr. Sherman was downwind from the Pentagon on 9/11 and her Geiger counter readings show an extremely high reading, a reading of more than eight to ten times higher than normal," said Moret, also an expert in the cause and effects of depleted uranium.

"Dr. Sherman, who is well-respected radiation expert herself, then went about contacting the proper authorities in order to try and alert emergency responders of the radiation risk at the Pentagon crash site. And we have also kept photos of the Geiger counter readings in order to verify what Dr. Sherman found 12 miles away."

After notifying the Nuclear Industrial Safety Agency (NIRS), experts from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the FBI were alerted and according to Moret, radiation experts later confirmed high radiation levels at the Pentagon crash site possibly from the presence from depleted uranium or other unknown causes.

But what disturbed Moret most has been the Bush administration's lack of concern and its failure to mount a thorough investigation into what really caused the high radiation levels, saying perhaps the findings might reveal something contrary to the official story that a jetliner rammed through 12 Pentagon walls of solid concrete.

"Even if there was depleted uranium used, do you think the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would really care? These are bottom feeders that 20 or 30 years ago wouldn't have been even allowed to set foot in such high positions of power," said Moret.

Although Dr. Sherman's Geiger counter can't be a conclusive finding, another nuclear radiation expert, Marion Fulk, agrees the positive reading, if anything, is suspicious.

"It definitely looks suspicious but of course many factors have to be considered before a conclusion is reached," said Fulk in a telephone conversation this week. "The type of Geiger counter used by Dr. Sherman needs to be looked at as well as the possibility of the true source of the radiation, whether it is depleted uranium in a missile, ballast in the airplane or within the structure of the building hit."

Even though no one can be sure, one thing positive is the Bush administration never really seriously cared about addressing the possibility of depleted uranium at the Pentagon just like it cares little about the same problem at the World Trade Center and in the war fields of Iraq and Afghanistan.

And, more recently, Moret, Fulk and Maj. Rokke, along with Dennis Kyne, Bob Jones and Mark Zeller, have provided documentation for an explosive video written and produced by Joyce Riley and William Lewis called "Beyond Treason," providing an in depth look at depleted uranium used in the Gulf Wars and its likelihood of causing numerous civilian and military illnesses.

"It has been determined that the equivalent of more than 400,000 Nagasaki bombs has been released in the middle east since 1991," said Moret, citing a report and subsequent speech at a 2000 depleted uranium conference given by Professor Yagasaki, a physicist and well-respected nuclear radiation expert.

And in the 89 minute video, exploring a massive government cover up, Riley and Lewis point out the unexplained illnesses in civilians and military personal may be the cause of depleted uranium or perhaps a combination of overlapping causes, including chemical and biological exposure and the use of experimental vaccines.

The writers of Beyond Treason, added:

"The ailing Gulf War heroes from all 27 coalition countries slowly die from of "unknown causes," they wait for answers from their respective governments, but no satisfying or even credible answers have come forth from the military establishment. Records that span over a decade point to negligence and even culpability on the part of the U.S. Department of Defense and their disposable army" mentality.

"The VA has determined that 250,000 troops are now permanently disabled, 15,000 troops are dead and over 425,000 are ill and slowly dying from what the Department of Defense still calls a mystery disease. How many more will have to die before action is taken?"

And in February, 2004, a conference called "Dialogues with Decision Makers" was held in New Delhi, India, where a group of experts gathered for the prevention of nuclear war and looked closely at the depleted uranium problem in the Middle East.

Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, former chief of the Naval Staff in India, reported the following shocking details about the effects of depleted uranium:

"In the 2003 war, the Iraqi's were subjected to the Pentagon's radioactive arsenal, mainly in the urban centers, unlike in the deserts in 1991. The aggregate effects of illnesses and long term disabilities and genetic birth defects will be apparent only 2008 onwards. "By now, half of all the 697,000 US soldiers involved in the 1991 war have reported serious illnesses. According the American Gulf War Veterans Association, more than 30% of these soldiers are chronically ill, and receiving disability benefits from the Veterans Administration.

"Near the Republican Palace where US troops stood guard and over 1000 employees walked in and out, the radiation readings were the hottest in Iraq, at nearly 1900 times background radiation levels.

"At a roadside stand, selling fresh bunches of parsley, mint, and onions, children played on a burnt out Iraqi tank just outside Baghdad, the Geiger counter registered 1000 times normal background radiation.

"The Pentagon and the United Nations estimate that the US and Britain used 1,100 to 2,200 tons of armor piercing shells made of DU during attacks in March-April 2003, far more than the 1991 Gulf War (this does not include air dispensed DU munitions and missiles)," wrote the Post Intelligencer.

"The long term effects, as Dr Asaf Durakovic elaborates, after the early neurological symptoms are cancer, and related radiation illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome, joint and muscle pain, neurological and/or nerve damage, mood disturbances, auto-immune deficiencies, lung and kidney damage, vision problems, skin rupture, increase in miscarriages, maternal mortality and genetic birth defects/deformation.

"For years the US government described the Gulf War Syndrome as a post traumatic stress disorder. It was labeled as a psychological problem or simply as mysterious unrelated ailments much in the same way as health problems of Vietnam veterans suffering from Agent Orange poisoning."


For more informative articles, go to www.arcticbeacon.com. Greg Szymanski Powered by CityMak

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/article/1518131/31824.htm

"It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the MISSILE to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center. The only way to deal with this problem is by taking the battle to the terrorists, wherever they are, and dealing with them."

Donald Rumsfeld answering Parade Magazine reporter Lyric Wallwork Winik in Pentagon Press Conference Oct.12, 2001. (Posted on the Pentagon website)

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/rumsfeld-warnings.htm





Have some links.
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Missile-Not-Flight-77.html
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm
http://911review.org/Wiki/Flight77Witnesses.shtml

Rumsfeld slips up -www.democrats.com/node/5056+missile+hit+the+pentagon&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us&client=firefox-a" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noreferrer noopener">http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:RX_LRKf9WPwJ:www.democrats.com/node/5056+missile+hit+the+pentagon&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us&client=firefox-a


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Phred]
    #7543286 - 10/21/07 03:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not sure I know what a "Troofer" is and I don't know what Kool-Aid you are referring to. If you are implying that I am a mindless drone of some cult here to drink something laced with deadly poisons, I find that rather insulting.

However I did take some time to look over your sites, and I must say a lot of it struck me as personal opinion and government sponsored propaganda. They don't have all the answers, as hard as they try. But they do have a lot of speculation and disclaimers stating this may or may not be the truth. Same old BS.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543303 - 10/21/07 03:30 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Are you kidding?

You people are raling about the WTC 7 collapse and how it was a controlled demolition, etc etc.

There are about 100 quotes on the first website that Phred posted from people who actually were physically a part of the process that say why it is all bullshit.

Is this hearsay? Fabrication? Are these people imaginary?


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7543313 - 10/21/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I never said anything about WTC 7. I did however say something about the twin towers and how they couldn't have fallen just from a plane hitting them. Those people however, could very well be imaginary, or paid off.

Not to mention who hijacked the planes and masterminded the whole thing in the first place.

Our government is not as stupid as people think they are.

Yeah, Bush is a moron. But he doesn't run the country.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543341 - 10/21/07 03:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How do you know they couldn't have fallen from an aircraft hitting them?

The ego in that statement is insane.

You aren't any kind of structural engineer. You're a pothead musician. You don't have any more insight into this than Charlie Brown. And you refuse to believe anyone who DOES have that kind of insight, because their "The Man"

How can you argue with logic like that...


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543371 - 10/21/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
PS. Remember the Anthrax scare shortly after 911?

- Why were mostly journalists and politicians targetted? Journalists and politicians who were asking too many questions.

- Why did that specific strain of Anthrax come from a government controlled lab within the US?

Go back to sleep America.
The terrorists are coming to get you.




Hey! Don't mention things like that or operation northwoods. Those sorts of things can't be easily explained away. [sarcasm]Mention holographic planes, or UFO's.

Aliens attacked the world trade centre. And they are working for the government.[/sarcasm]


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Phred]
    #7543397 - 10/21/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
kriminalelement writes:

Quote:

1. I wasn't there.
2. I didn't personally collect any evidence supporting any particular theory
3. Since I wasn't involved in this in any way, nor did I collect any evidence personally, I can't make a determination one way or another.




You can say that about pretty much everything in life. Do you have an opinion on whether or not men walked on the moon in the late Sixties and early Seventies? How about the invasion of Normandy in 1944? No opinion on that one way or the other?





come on, now.  You can match graphs, quotes, and physics theories with the other side all you want, but why harass someone for simply admitting they don't know and could never know what really happened without being there? 

I think an attitude of skepticism towards all 'data' relevant to this issue is perfectly healthy, no matter which side it comes from.  I don't rule out the possibility that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are fucking nutbars, but at the same time I don't rule out the possibility that the government and the media are fucking liars. 

Its one of those things where, short of personally undertaking the studies to become an expert and having access to all the relevant data, I seriously doubt most people will ever know what really happened.  Its kind of a matter of whose 'expert testimony' you believe.  I love how everyone becomes a physics expert every time this discussion comes up. 

You ask me what I believe about 9/11 and I'll tell you I have no idea.  I don't necessarily believe the conspiracy stories, but I sure as hell don't 100% swallow the official line, either.  And the reason I say 'I don't know' is because I don't have the time and energy to become an expert in physics, architecture, and aviation and spend my whole life analyzing binders and binders of 3rd hand data trying to develop an expert opinion.  What's wrong with that attitude?

because if you think I should automatically trust the official line more than some whacko's pet theory, you obviously have more respect for the government and media than I do.  You obviously have a predisposition to believe 'the official story' and are preaching this attitude to others.  Almost as if you were COINTELPRO, infiltrating counterculture societies in order to plant seeds of doubt. 
:wink: :tinfoil: :lol:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7543497 - 10/21/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And I also saw little explosions in the videos all over the sides right before and as it was coming down.




Those were not explosions but air from the upper floors being compressed from the collapse and blown down and out of the windows carrying smoke and debris with it. Exactly what would be expected from such a collapse.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7543502 - 10/21/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Your logic has no place here!


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: wps]
    #7543566 - 10/21/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

wps writes:

Quote:

You can match graphs, quotes, and physics theories with the other side all you want, but why harass someone for simply admitting they don't know and could never know what really happened without being there?




There was no harassment, just pointing out correctly that all her points regarding "not being there" apply equally to just about everything that goes on and has gone on in the world.

Very very little of what you (or anyone else) know about the world was acquired through observing with your own eyes or performing experiments yourself. You got that knowledge from other people.

Quote:

I think an attitude of skepticism towards all 'data' relevant to this issue is perfectly healthy, no matter which side it comes from. I don't rule out the possibility that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are fucking nutbars, but at the same time I don't rule out the possibility that the government and the media are fucking liars.




And I disagree. It's one thing to go through life with an open mind and quite another thing indeed to walk around with your mind so wide open that it falls out your ears when you bend over. Is it 100% impossible that the whole thing was set up by the US government? Only in the sense that theoretically pretty much everything is possible. It is possible, for example, that all we know about human physiology is dead wrong, and that the reason your eyes follow the lines of text has nothing to do with your mind controlling muscles attached to your eyeballs -- instead they are moved by incredibly tiny invisible monkeys pulling invisible cables attached to an invisible pulley system. Similarly, any physicist familiar with quantum mechanics will tell you it is possible that two or three of the electrons of various atoms which make up your body are currently whizzing around somewhere out beyond the orbit of Saturn. Highly improbable, mind you (there are no words in any language to accurately describe just how improbable), but possible.

What counts is how plausible something is. What is the probability that the whole thing was set up by the US government rather than fanatic Islamic nutjobs? When you look at all the evidence, the probability that it was the government is maybe 0.00000000000001 per cent. Not technically impossible, but so close to it that it might as well be.

Quote:

Its one of those things where, short of personally undertaking the studies to become an expert and having access to all the relevant data, I seriously doubt most people will ever know what really happened. Its kind of a matter of whose 'expert testimony' you believe. I love how everyone becomes a physics expert every time this discussion comes up.




But that's the thing. No one has to be a physics "expert" to understand how the towers fell. None of this will strain the mental resources of anyone exposed to high school science.

Besides, in order to rule out the "Truther" point of view, we don't even have to use physics. Common sense and Occam's Razor do the job handily. It is as close to impossible as you can possibly get in this world to come up with a team of a few hundred or so people evil enough and possessed of the requisite ninja mind-blanking skillz necessary to keep the fifty thousand or so people who worked in those towers from noticing that they were ripping cladding off girders and strapping thousands of charges and detonators to them over the course of weeks or months.

Quote:

You ask me what I believe about 9/11 and I'll tell you I have no idea. I don't necessarily believe the conspiracy stories, but I sure as hell don't 100% swallow the official line, either. And the reason I say 'I don't know' is because I don't have the time and energy to become an expert in physics, architecture, and aviation and spend my whole life analyzing binders and binders of 3rd hand data trying to develop an expert opinion.




You needn't do any of that. See above.

Quote:

because if you think I should automatically trust the official line more than some whacko's pet theory, you obviously have more respect for the government and media than I do.




Automatically? Of course not. Verify for yourself to the extent possible. That's what I have done. But don't try to tell me you give the same weight to some whacko's pet theory that you do to your own common sense, because you don't. There are people who are convinced the towers were brought down by top secret directed-energy weapons. I shit you not. Do you give the same weight to that possibility as you do to the possibility that hijacked planes brought them down? Of course you don't.

Quote:

You obviously have a predisposition to believe 'the official story' and are preaching this attitude to others.




Dead wrong, sonny. I'm an old fart in comparison to most of the younguns who post here. I am well aware that government officials can lie. I cut my political teeth on the Watergate hearings. I was glued to the screen for hours each day watching them. I heard Bill CLinton claiming he "never had sex with that woman", too. But the "theory" that Islamic nutjobs hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings isn't a government "theory" of what happened, it's what happened. And that's all that had to happen for the towers to collapse. They weren't made of freaking kryptonite or indestructabilium or something, after all.

None of the engineers who wrote the NIST report expressed surprise the towers collapsed. Quite the reverse. Some of them say it's a testament to the quality of the construction done (over-engineered, the term is) that they lasted as long as they did. They would have expected them to collapse sooner than they actually did.

The only predisposition I have is to use common sense coupled with a bit of followup research.



Phred


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OfflineWakeboardrB
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism] * 1
    #7543923 - 10/21/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
PS. Remember the Anthrax scare shortly after 911?

- Why were mostly journalists and politicians targetted? Journalists and politicians who were asking too many questions.

- Why did that specific strain of Anthrax come from a government controlled lab within the US?

Go back to sleep America.
The terrorists are coming to get you.




The first wave of Anthrax letters that targeted news media and journalists were mailed 6 days after 9/11. Hardly enough time to start asking too many questions.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7544050 - 10/21/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

rofl TWO JUMBO JETS HIT THE TOWERS.

I WOULD THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME EXPLOSIONS....JUST MAYBE? ROFLS

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Leanin]
    #7544190 - 10/21/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Leanin said:
rofl TWO JUMBO JETS HIT THE TOWERS.

I WOULD THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME EXPLOSIONS....JUST MAYBE? ROFLS






--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7544226 - 10/21/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

Leanin said:
rofl TWO JUMBO JETS HIT THE TOWERS.

I WOULD THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME EXPLOSIONS....JUST MAYBE? ROFLS









Oh my god, you can see the face of santa in that picture. I think the gods are angry at us.


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Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.

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InvisibleHELLA_TIGHT
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7545056 - 10/21/07 10:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
1. America isn't a fascist state and I find it likely you don't even know the definition of "fascism".





1: http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm





This made me laugh, because instead of showing that you actually know what fascism means, you just give him a link, making yourself look like a [censored for pub].


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: HELLA_TIGHT]
    #7545077 - 10/21/07 10:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The page that comes up when you click the link isn't an article. It has a bunch of pictures and titles that illustrate what he is talking about. For people the might not know what fascism is (I didn't really know) its probably the easiest way of putting it.

Laugh all you want. I see a lot of condescending posts from the non-'conspiracy theorists' and I think that in a matter like this, it speaks volumes.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7545903 - 10/22/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes,
We don't truly know either way but I feel some people are open-minded, some are closed minded and some are admitting they don't have a clue.

Fact is in any topic of debate - if your certain then you are flawed. I will always remain open to new evidence, to changing my opinion.

You can see when someones defending a dead opinion just because their ego will not allow them to accept that they are wrong!!!

I don't know what really happened, but it seems there is a hell of a lot of controversy in this subject. If I was to lean one way slightly then I lead towards the conspiracy side because theres a lot of stuff that suggests SOMETHING is being covered up. The way they hid stuff after the event.

I also remember one of the structural engineers at collage telling me how is lecture had said to him "I'm no conspiracy theorist but that looks like a controlled demolition"

Shroomism is also correct in that other buildings have been hit by planes and didn't collapse in that manner. Coinidence? Possibly! But why are there so many coincidences on this subject....

I think we should talk solely about the pentagon being hit - It seemed to be highly covered up from media - it never even made it to UK media like the towers did. That part of the whole story seems really dodgy. What happened to Air Force 1 - you'd think a country with so much military power would notice and intercept a plane heading for the pentagon!

What happened to the wreckage of the plane and why do we only see one turbine that wasn't a turbine engine for the plane that they said hit it?!

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Ego Death]
    #7545915 - 10/22/07 07:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

was their ever a death toll on the pentagon hit? wasn't it a wing that was blocked off for remodeling??

if so here is a "theory", "if" they demo'ed the trade centers, wouldn't it look nice to show another building that is still standing that got hit by a plane? you know so you could say hey look at the pentagon and how much damage it did.

and you know whats funny, i havn't seen one person suggest that maybe the trade center was demo'ed to save lifes/keep it from falling onto other buildings. the problem was their was still people in the building and they couldn't answer to all the familys that they blew them up.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7546036 - 10/22/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, keeping it from falling on other buildings, good point :thumbup:

anyone ever played JENGA?  I keep thinking about that.  At the end, the tower collapses and pieces go everywhere- all over the table, even underneath the table on the floor.  They certainly don't collapse in a nice, neat little pile contained within a tiny radius.


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"America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve."

- Tom Morello

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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: wps] * 1
    #7546078 - 10/22/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I always hear about the missile pentagon thing. Even if it was a conspiracy, it would still be more convenient just to use the damn plane to hit the building anyway, it would be getting rid of a plane and all the passengers. There's no logic behind the missile conspiracy.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Maverick]
    #7546183 - 10/22/07 09:53 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The logic was that there was apparently no plane wreckage apart from one turbine and that a plane wouldn't of made a hole like that or penetrated the reinforcements like that.

Completely made up?

I dunno but it seems fishy.

A better question could be why do so many Americans and other people world wide suspect the government of orchestrating this?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: jccc]
    #7546217 - 10/22/07 10:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jccc said:
Have any of you who belive the consircy bullshit visited ground zero?? what about actually loosing loved ones in the twin towers?

After you go through both those things, then you try come and say you think it was a goverment set up...
It wasnt...
George Bush may be a shitty president but all the top end govt. officials arnt going to all agree to kill innocent Americans! THis is not Hitler were talking about...





I'd have to disagree with you completely. There are plenty of 9/11 victims' (people who died in the twin towers, both civilians and firefighters/police) families who are calling for a new investigation. For you to say that anyone who lost a family member finds those who question the "official" account of 9/11 an abomination need to check your sources.


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InvisibleCheezit
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: wps]
    #7546372 - 10/22/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You know they are still finding body parts in NYC. I think they found a hand on a roof top just this past year.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Ego Death] * 1
    #7546415 - 10/22/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ego Death said:
The logic was that there was apparently no plane wreckage apart from one turbine and that a plane wouldn't of made a hole like that or penetrated the reinforcements like that.




This is absolutely false.

Dont spread misinformation, it just makes you look dumb.

Quote:


FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"




But yes, I'm sure she's a paid government stooge and those were actually pig parts that were loaded onto the missile before it was launched in order to make it look like an actual plane had it.

Geez. Cant you people see that all of your pet theories are 1000X more complicated than what actually happened?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7546462 - 10/22/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One problem I see with this post is that both sides are being blind to each other. I will admit that I am a conspiracy theorist, but my background in school leads me to be as such.

Both sides of the website 9/11 debate from those sites who support the conspiracy to those who support the official story both ignore events that took place before, during, and after that day.

I believe that extremists overtook three (maybe four) flights and crashed them into buildings. However, those attacks were not aimed at the American people, those attacks were aimed at the American imperial establishment....i.e. the WTC towers (the business side of imperialism) and the Pentagon (the military side of imperialism). I know for a fact that those plains hit the buildings. However, like I said I don't exactly buy the official story, nor do I buy the fairytale story of hatred towards me and not "my" govt.

I believe that the govt knew about the attacks long before they happened. I also wouldn't put it past a certain agency employed by the govt to hire out the attacks themselves. I think that certain persons took advantage of what was going to occur on this day. And for those who call me nuts and think our govt would never be complicit in something like this, I give you this to mull over.

FDR knew that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. As a whole, the US citizens wanted no part of WWII, however, those who funded his campaign to get him reelected felt differently about the war than the american people. This includes many of the major corporations that profited from both sides of the war. Prescott Bush's name even comes up in this history. 11 days before Pearl Harbor, FDR knew about the attack. He allowed it to happen to get America into WWII.

Before the election campaign to get Bush/Cheney and criminals elected, Cheney and many other Neocons supported (and some participated) the writing of a book which laid out the road map of what would be done, if another Pearl Harbor was to happen while one of these shmucks was in office. Sure enough, their election scam pulled off thanks to some people who were later rewarded for their dedication to the Bush family mission. And within the first year of office, BOOM!!! They get their Pearl Harbor. Just a little coincidental if you were to ask me, but hey I don't know ANYTHING.

Then there is the fact that the USA PATRIOT ACT was written in advance. And to add to the charm, passed under anthrax scare early in the morning with govt produced anthrax. Of course, these are all coincidences that have nothing to do with one another.

At the same time, I would love to find out that the terrorists really did this and it all happened according to the official story. Although that really won't help clean up this administrations outright lies, fuck ups, and secrecy. All they would need to do to change half of America's view is OPEN THE DAMN FILES FOR PUBLIC REVIEW. Stop being secretive.

I can see it now. I get busted for some crime and taken to trial. The prosecutor shows "all" of the evidence to the jury. Then later in the trial, the prosecution admits that they kept some evidence from jury view, but not to worry because on the prosecutions word, the hidden "evidence" points to the fact that I did indeed commit the crime. Well, if I did indeed commit the crime and you have evidence which "proves" that I did, wouldn't you want to use all of the evidence against me? Or is that now how investigations work??? Why hide and destroy evidence unless you have something to hide? If I want to examine the evidence for my own research, why would you not let me if the evidence points to the "official" answer? I am sure many criminals would LOVE to be able to control what evidence is used in trials against them. But then no one would be convicted.

"Just take my word, I didn't do it."

Oh, then he must be innocent.

"Just take my word, THEY did it."

Oh, then they MUST have done it.


And phred, I respect your posts as you don't just spout shit from your asshole, unlike some other posters on this site. But here, take a look here. I find it interesting that this site filled with licensed, practicing engineers and architects (especially the guy from earthquake prone northern california) is ALWAYS ignored by the 9/11 debunkers. Why? (this question isn't directed only at you phred). And like this site says, for future buildings, wouldn't it be helpful to find out EXACTLY what happened to those buildings on 9/11 so that future disasters like this can be avoided? Just for scientific and educational reasons, shouldn't all evidence from 9/11 be available for public scrutiny?

And one more thing. I have seen a number of people on this site state that the conspiracy theorists are ignoring the scientific method. I would have to disagree. For those people who say that a super laser from space took out the buildings, they ARE fucking nuts. BUT, there are many people who have completed experiments to PROVE their theories. Even NIST's report ignores the scientific method and starts with the answer and worked backwards to prove how it happened. And even in the report, their experiments didn't support their "answer". But any experiment that didn't work was ignored. I'd have to say that the "official" investigations have completely ignored the scientific method.


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Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7546518 - 10/22/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FDR knew about the attack. He allowed it to happen to get America into WWII.




Proof please. Thanks.

As far as it relates to 9/11, Troofers have a motive but as always, no evidence. That is quite a leap. It helps to be well grounded in logic and critical thinking skills before taking this type of journey.

They are working backwards from their conclusion rather than following the evidence where it leads them. That is no way to get at the truth but rather the well worn path of delusion.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7546530 - 10/22/07 11:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

A few questions that are completely separate from the above post:


1. Who attacked us on 9/11???
(I thought it was Bin Laden through Al Qaeda?)

2. If Bin Laden is blamed, then why no mention of it here?
(http_://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm)


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Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


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Edited by trippindad82 (10/22/07 11:48 AM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7546619 - 10/22/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

William Rodriguez, WTC janitor who had a master key to the two towers and saved numerous people before they came down, experienced a massive explosion coming from one of the sub-basement levels BEFORE the first plane hit. Anyone who thinks that only the planes brought down the towers needs to listen to his story... unless they want to remain in total ignorance.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Clean]
    #7546628 - 10/22/07 12:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Rodriguez also complains that his accounts of events have been ignored by official investigative bodies. Yet, when given the opportunity to put his observations on the public record with investigators from NIST - the very body investigating the cause of the collapse of the twin towers - he said not a word about explosives planted in the basement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7546680 - 10/22/07 12:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I've seen William give a live talk (for free) and he talked extensively about the basement explosions and secondary explosions after the planes hit.

The only way to clarify this apparent discrepancy would be to contact William himself and ask him about it.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7546797 - 10/22/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

FDR knew about the attack. He allowed it to happen to get America into WWII.




Proof please. Thanks.





Honestly.

9/11'ers say this all the time, but it just isn't true...


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7547224 - 10/22/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There is no smoking gun on the Pearl Harbor thing but an interesting quote by Vice Admiral Frank E. Beatty

Quote:


Prior to December 7, it was evident even to me... that we were pushing Japan into a corner. I believed that it was the desire of President Roosevelt, and Prime Minister Churchill that we get into the war, as they felt the Allies could not win without us and all our efforts to cause the Germans to declare war on us failed; the conditions we imposed upon Japan — to get out of China, for example — were so severe that we knew that nation could not accept them. We were forcing her so severely that we could have known that she would react toward the United States. All her preparations in a military way — and we knew their over-all import — pointed that way.





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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7547237 - 10/22/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

FDR knew about the attack. He allowed it to happen to get America into WWII.




Proof please. Thanks.





Honestly.

9/11'ers say this all the time, but it just isn't true...




I would have to disagree again. For those who want proof, google it. However, when my nephew's state approved history text book states that FDR had advance knowledge of Pearl Harbor, I'd have to say that it is fact.

Almost every war America has been engaged in from the Spanish American war on has some little nuance of either foreknowledge or even self inflicted damage to start the war.


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Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7547272 - 10/22/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

For those who want proof, google it.




You made the claim, you provide the proof.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7547273 - 10/22/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I already said thats what I read.  Misinformation is all over the net its nothing to do with me as I don't believe anything either way (as I also already said).

I see you have provided lots of sources to prove otherwise :rolleyes:

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7547632 - 10/22/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

For those who want proof, google it.




You made the claim, you provide the proof.




http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44354

and the sources go on and on.

Like an old history teacher of mine used to say, "History is written by those who have the most to lose from it."


--------------------
Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7547768 - 10/22/07 05:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I do not have access to Mr. Stinnett's book and cannot evaluate it based upon an interview with the author. If you have a smoking gun from the book or any of the articles feel free to post the relevant sections.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7548489 - 10/22/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

deedle deedle dee


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7549070 - 10/22/07 09:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trippindad82 said:
Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

For those who want proof, google it.




You made the claim, you provide the proof.




http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44354

and the sources go on and on.

Like an old history teacher of mine used to say, "History is written by those who have the most to lose from it."




ho hum


Quote:

A Cryptologic Veteran's Analysis of
"Day of Deceit"
By: Philip H. Jacobsen
The author, Robert B. Stinnett, made a thorough search of National Archives files other repositories and contacted numerous personnel to justify his long held belief that President Franklin D. Roosevelt not only actively fomented war with Japan as a pretext to aid Britain in its fight with Hitler but that he purposely made Pearl Harbor an attractive target for the Japanese Navy. Then (as the theory goes) after learning of the of the Japanese plan to attack Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt (through conspiracies continuing today) not only kept Admiral Kimmel and General Short from obtaining information on Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor but ordered or had ordered actions that prevented those commanders from discovering the Kido Butai and adequately defending Pearl Harbor from the expected attack by the Japanese.

"Day of Deceit" argues that Roosevelt was convinced the loss at Pearl Harbor must be of sufficient magnitude to overcome the isolationist views of the general public so that he could safely declare war on both Japan and Germany. Furthermore, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt through his co-conspirators (who apparently include General Marshall, Admirals Stark, Ingersoll, Anderson, Captain Turner and Commander McCollum and by implication Admiral Noyes, Captain Redman, Commander Rochefort and many others), attempted to cover up his and his co-conspirators' dastardly deeds. However, through Stinnett's foresight, expertise and diligence, he was able to see through this monstrous conspiracy and its cover-up to reveal its details to us some 58 years later when all previous efforts by revisionist conspiracy theorists have failed and all the participants are dead and cannot defend themselves. Nevertheless, this book will sell well among rabid Roosevelt haters, many Kimmel and Short supporters, and dedicated conspiracy theorists.

Beginning in World War I with the nascent United States involvement in cryptology, followed by the Yardley Black Chamber, the book rapidly progresses into the beginnings of the Army involvement in cryptology after Secretary of State Stimson closed the Yardley Black Chamber. Mr. William Friedman, who headed the Army's Signal Intelligence Service since 1929, in 1930 hired three mathematician assistants, Mr. Frank Rowlett, Mr. Solomon Kullback, and Mr. Abraham Sinkov. (According to Mr. Rowlett in his book The Story of Magic it was called Signal Intelligence Section. The Section was part of the Army Signal Corps, and the immediate boss was actually Major Crawford, USA, who reported directly to the Chief Signal Officer). The four individuals functioned in a small secure space in the third wing of the old Munitions Building on Constitution Avenue, Washington, D.C. until the beginning of WW II.

In an effort to support his conspiracy theory, Stinnett came up with many new documents not generally known to be available. However, these documents do not add anything new to the question of who knew what and when. In his zeal, he misinterprets not only some of these "new" documents but comes up with radically new meanings for the plain words and characterizations of well accepted documentation already available in this Pearl Harbor arena. One of the centerpieces of his argument is an October 1940 memorandum by then Lieutenant Commander McCollum of ONI in response to the September 1940 signing of the Tripartite Pact by Germany, Italy and Japan and not as any blueprint for initiating war with Germany and Japan. McCollum recognized the danger to the western powers if Japan was able to connect up with Germany and Italy through Asia and suggested eight actions designed to contain Japan generally and to keep her from making such connection with its other Axis partners. Unfortunately, the book seizes on an off hand comment that is not one of the main points of the memo as the springboard for its conspiracy theory. That comment was if the eight proposed actions designed to contain Japan should by chance cause Japan to commit an overt act of war, so much the better. No proof of any official implementation of this mid-level memo is provided. Furthermore, Stinnett improperly ascribes McCollum's office as "an element of Station US (by which he means OP-20-G), a secret American cryptographic center located at the main naval headquarters" in an effort to tie McCollum closer to OP-20-G than he actually was before WWII. A non-cryptologic fallacy of the book is the fact that Roosevelt had no assurance that Germany would declare war on the U.S. if the Japanese did attack Pearl Harbor thus negating any reasonable conspiratorial design to get the U.S. into war with Germany by forcing Japan to attack the U.S.

It is well established that the SRN series of Japanese naval messages in the National Archives were decrypted in 1945-46 and translated in 1946-47, but Stinnett incorrectly suggests they may only have been transcribed at those times and that these decrypts (or at least some of them) were available not only in radio intelligence centers in Washington, but Stations Hypo (Rochefort) in Hawaii and Cast on Corregidor. Among other things, the book misinterprets an article by Captain Pelletier in the "Cryptolog." Even though Pelletier is now dead, he also wrote in the NCVA History Book that all such JN-25B raw messages were two months old by the time he saw them in Washington and that no Kido Butai transmissions while enroute from the Kuriles to Hawaii were ever found before or after 7 December 1941. Further, the book fails to inform its readers that Rochefort and his Hypo personnel were only assigned to and only worked on the unproductive Flag Officer's Code and not the main Japanese Fleet Code JN-25B as well as the fact that they were only given the go ahead to work on JN-25B a few days or so after the Pearl Harbor attack. As mentioned before, Stinnett also omits the well known information that JN-25B intercepts from Corregidor, Guam and Station H were only forwarded to Washington by mail and took up to two months to arrive mostly by ship and rail. Thus, even Washington's alleged 10 percent capability on JN-25B decrypts had not even begun to be applied to the November and December 1941 intercepts enroute there while Stinnett maintains they were available to all commanders except of course Kimmel and Short due to FDR's co-conspirators.

The book implies more improprieties by the fact that Hypo had no assigned Japanese diplomatic intercept or decrypt authority until RCA President Sarnoff made available RCA cables from Honolulu beginning in early December 1941. Part of Stinnett's overall conspiracy theory includes the allegation that Hypo only decrypted the administrative messages of these low level Japanese diplomatic messages provided by RCA before Pearl Harbor and did not decrypt the "bomb plot" messages until after Pearl Harbor.

Although Stinnett obtained definite information from Captain Whitlock that no significant JN-25B decrypts were made by Station Cast on Corregidor during the period in question, he disputes this fact and misinterprets other documents and sources as proof that Whitlock is wrong. Some navy cryptologic veterans involved in this book have complained Stinnett gained their confidence by agreeing to tell their stories but ignored their version of events in favor of the monstrous conspiracy theory finalized in the book. Admiral Layton terminated his interview with the author, most likely when he learned where the book was going. It should be noted that it took OP-20-G some 14 months to read the much simpler JN-25A system that was used from 1 June 1939 to 1 December 1940. The book misleads its readers by not revealing there were two distinct codes, the earlier JN-25A and its much more complicated successor JN-25B used during the period in question and refers to them collectively as "Code Book D" or "5-Num code." Thus, the final successes of JN-25A are improperly imputed to JN-25B which was not read to any significant extent until March 1942 when the first published decrypt is found. The ever-increasing requirements to provide Japanese diplomatic decrypts and translations during 1941 took most of the time of navy cryptographers so that few people at both Washington and Station Cast were assigned to work on the new version of the Fleet Code, JN-25B. In addition, JN-25B used about eight additive cipher books up through 4 December 1941 further delaying the effort to read any significant amount of this new and far more complicated code and cipher combination.

Stinnett and his sources are apparently not aware that Japanese naval shore broadcast stations transmitted simultaneously on a number of frequencies covering their communications area and it was up to the ships in their communications zone (or U.S. intercept operators) to choose the best frequency on which to copy such broadcast. Thus, the deduction that because an intercept operator copied one message in the 12 MHz. range part of one day and 16 MHz. on part of a different later day means the ship or force has moved further away from the shore station is patently incorrect. These Tokyo broadcast transmitters were active on several of their assigned frequencies simultaneously and the 16 MHz. frequency had long been used by the Tokyo broadcast as a daytime frequency.

Stinnett often claims carriers or fleet units must have transmitted on high frequencies when they are only seen in the headings of messages on fleet broadcasts. He does not tell his readers that many ships are tied up at docks and have landline or cable communications available to them so they do not have to use radio and the original transmissions of such messages will never be heard by foreign intercept operators. In this regard, he maintains that Admiral Yamamoto's messages sent (while tied up at a Kure dock) to the Pearl Harbor attack force and other ships on the Tokyo broadcast violated radio silence when, in fact, the radio silence imposed then only meant that ships (or aircraft) are not permitted to transmit by high frequency radio, not that messages to these units cannot be sent by fleet broadcasts or that fleet units or commands that have landline, cable or other approved facilities available to them cannot use them.

Apparently, Stinnett did come up with records to substantiate Hypo's summaries about the carrier Agaki being active on the air on 26 and 30 November 1941. However, there is no documentation that any high frequency direction finder (HFDF) fixes were available to Hypo on such transmissions. The single line bearings reportedly obtained by Corregidor's old DY-2 HFDF went by the island of Honshu as well as the Kurile Islands and the former location with acceptable HFDF variations was within Hypo's previous general determination of carrier locations. According to the book, a possible cross bearing from Dutch Harbor was found in that station's November monthly report that did not reach Station H until after 7 December and for some reason was not reproduced in the book. No documentary evidence was shown that such bearing was actually transmitted to Station H or subsequently forwarded to Rochefort at Hypo except a general statement as to routine forwarding by a Dutch Harbor operator.

Although the book claims more carrier and carrier commander transmissions were made after 26 and 30 November, this information is apparently due to a misinterpretation of the TESTM reports from Corregidor to Station H and a misunderstanding of traffic analysis procedures identifying call signs appearing in broadcast and point to point messages sent by shore communication stations. The single TESTM report provided in the book first lists the transmissions heard and their bearings and such bearings are mainly on unidentified call signs. Then, any fleet level call signs identifications made from the traffic analysis of message headings in shore station transmissions by Station Cast are given. In his enthusiasm to support its conspiracy theory, Stinnett apparently assumes that the latter call sign identifications by traffic analysis of shore station transmissions actually represent high frequency radio transmissions by such fleet units and commanders. Layton, Pelletier and Whitlock among others deny such transmissions were ever received. One wonders why Stinnett did not reproduce the other two TESTM reports upon which he relies to make his specific allegations to clarify his identification and deductive processes, especially since the one page reproduced does not support his allegations.

Gross misinterpretations of two decrypts and translations in the SRN series at the National Archives make up the other parts of the book's centerpiece of its conspiracy theory. In an effort to give some credence to its allegation of a massive conspiracy, the book contradicts the plain meaning on the face of translations of these two decrypted messages, established Japanese naval communications practice, and standard decryption procedures. These messages were reported on long ago by Frederick D. Parker in "Cryptologia" Vol. 15 (4) p. 295. However, Parker fully reported that JN-25B was being decrypted at best on a 10 percent basis in Washington and those November and December 1941 raw messages discussed were enroute to Washington D.C. so that they were not available to be worked on until long after the Pearl Harbor attack. The glaring omission in the book of this vital "unavailability" information is instructive.

The first decrypt refers to naval spy Suzuki who was sent to the First Air Fleet on business to be picked up on 23 or 24 November at Hitokappu Wan (Bay). It is abundantly clear from the document that Hitokappu Wan is spelled out letter by letter in five numeral code groups of JN-25B because there was no two or three letter coded geographic designation available for this remote location (like AF for Midway Island.) Nevertheless, the book baldly claims, without any substantiation, that the words Hitokappu Wan were sent in plain language while the rest of the message was sent in code, an incredible absurdity. No other examples of plain language inserts within a high level Japanese naval coded message were ever claimed or reported. No one else has had the temerity to make such a ridiculous assertion when confronted with the JN-25B code designation on the face of the decrypt and no reference to a plain language insert in the decrypt.

The second gross misinterpretation contained in the book is that Yamamoto's famous message of 2 December 1941 only referred to as "Climb Mount. Niitaka 1208" may have been sent in plain language. If so, it implies Rochefort knew of these two plain language "busts" by the Japanese and therefore is part of the conspiracy for not reporting them in his summaries. For this strong implication, one Japanese historian is cited saying the message was sent in the clear while Yamamoto's biographer is identified as saying the message was encoded in a five numeral code (JN-25B). Captain Pelletier in the Naval Cryptologic Veterans Association History Book confirmed this message was sent in JN-25. To show the extreme lengths the book will go to conjure up his implication of conspiracy, it omits the fact in the narrative that this message labeled SRN 115376 by the National Archives had a cryptographer's reference below the heading clearly showing that it was encoded in JN-25B. Furthermore, Stinnett does not clearly point out to his readers that "Climb Mount Niitaka" was prefaced by the words, "This dispatch is Top Secret. This order is effective at 1730 on 2 December #10." Can you imagine the Japanese sending a Top Secret message in the clear and depending on a transparent underlying meaning for security? Except for battle tactical reports during the war, the Japanese seldom used plain language and even then preferred tactical codes. These are only a small part of the omissions, errors and misinterpretations contained in the book to try to make its revisionist conspiracy theory seem plausible to the uninitiated.

The book also resurrects the old allegations of Robert D. Ogg, a seaman in the 12th Naval District Intelligence office, and disregards Ogg's recorded interview by then Commander Newman that he only plotted two very closely parallel bearings from California stations 100 miles apart. Stinnett now says Ogg had prewar information on Japanese warship transmissions in the Kuriles with HFDF bearings by Dutch Harbor in spite of Ogg's original transcript to the contrary.

The old and thoroughly repudiated hearsay report of dead Dutch codebreakers' prewar determinations that Japanese carriers were in the North Pacific enroute to Hawaii are regurgitated by the book. Only now it has the Dutch putting them in the Kuriles instead of the North Pacific. Stinnett also repeats Parker's reporting of the tanker Shiriya moving eastward from the Bonin Islands in a 1 December 1941 message (SRN 115398) to Destroyer Division 7 with the Kido Butai that was intercepted on the Tokyo broadcast. Again, he does not tell his readers that this JN-25B message was only decrypted in 1945-46 and translated in 1946-47 and that the raw intercept was enroute to Washington DC in the U.S. postal system on 7 December 1941.

To further its revisionist conspiracy theory, the book argues that government censors are still withholding the publication of decryptions (and translations) of hundreds of vital Japanese naval messages whose secrecy is a part of this monstrous conspiracy. Stinnett points to missing Station Message Serial (SMS) numbers and missing versions of original transmissions by fleet units and commanders (supposedly on high frequency radio) that appear on shore station fleet broadcasts to naval ships and point to point circuits. However, the book does not mention that after the war navy analysts discovered that about 7,000 Japanese naval messages per month were forwarded to Washington from Corregidor, Guam and Hawaii from July to December 1941. During the expanded intercept coverage of WWII, an OP-20-G official estimated that the U.S. intercepted 60 percent of Japanese naval traffic. Therefore, far more than 10,000 messages were probably sent over the airways by the Japanese Navy per month in the months before Pearl Harbor and less than 60 percent were actually intercepted. Thus, the missing SMS numbers and original transmissions could be accounted for by missed intercepts and transmissions originated by landline, cable, visual means or even hand carried to shore radio stations. In fact, there was a cable office at Hitokappu Wan available to fleet units to send messages to Tokyo without transmitting on high frequency radio.

Again, in 1945-46 analysts decrypted those intercepts from the Pacific that were available in Washington. A total of 26,581 messages in seven different crypto systems were intercepted between 5 September and 4 December 1941. Between 15 March 1946 to 20 August 1947, OP-20-G analysts and linguists from ONI undertook the study of these 26,581 post war decrypts and only 2,413 were considered important enough for full translations. Of these, only 188 were isolated as pertaining specifically to the events of 7 December 1941. This information contradicts Stinnett's assertion that government censors are withholding disclosure of hundreds of vital decrypted and translated messages in furtherance of the alleged conspiracy by President Roosevelt and many top an middle level government officials. Those 2,413 messages that were translated in this period are available in the SRN series and no other decrypts or translations are available for this period of time..

To his credit, Stinnett does recognize that the Winds Execute message (a favorite revisionist conspiracy allegation) was never sent. He also recounts Secretary of War Stimson's blatant attempt to reverse the Army Board of Inquiry's determination that Marshall was in dereliction of his duty as to his Pearl Harbor actions. Stimson sent attorney Clausen around the world to obtain new affidavits countering the witnesses' previous testimony of Marshall's neglect to act on Purple decrypts. However, Stinnett omits the fact that Clausen also tried to place the blame for not fully informing Hawaiian commanders on navy cryptologic officers. The latter effort is also part of the aim of this book, but its shot is far wide of the mark.

To those of us who are familiar with Japanese naval codes and communications procedures at the time, available documentation in the Pearl Harbor arena as well as the pertinent personnel and history of OP-20-G, it is abundantly clear that the book fails to prove any part of its massive revisionist conspiracy theory. In fact, the expansion of prior revisionist conspiracy theories to include so many new allegations of wrong doing by Roosevelt and his mid and high level co-conspirators plus a continuing cover-up makes its enormous conspiracy theory a complete impossibility.

In conclusion, it is still clear that no U.S. official knew beforehand of the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor or discovered that the Kido Butai was on its way to Hawaii for such an attack in spite of this latest in a series of revisionist conspiracy theory books.

AFTERWARD: A few of the more gross errors noted after researching the actual archives documents

Further research confirms reports by numerous high ranking Japanese officials who participated in the Hawaiian Strike Force that programs of Japanese radio deception activities were carried out from major naval bases of Sasebo, Kure and Yokosuka to deceive the U.S. Navy's radio intelligence organization that the carriers were still in home waters. The actual Station C Corregidor TESTM HFDF bearing reports from 13 November through 4 December 1941 show the Akagi's bearings remaining between 026 and 030 degrees even though the Kido Butai first transited from the Inland Sea to Hitokappu Bay in the Kuriles and thence across the North Pacific Ocean to Hawaii. If the Corregidor bearings on the radio deception transmissions using the Akagi's call sign for 27 and 30 November and 4 December had been valid, they would have been 041, 048 and 051 degrees instead of remaining between 026 to 030 degrees. The reports of "carrier" transmissions on 26 and the Akagi on 30 November intercepted by Station H, Heeia, Oahu, Hawaii [but without HFDF bearings] were obviously part of the same Japanese radio deception program emanating from Sasebo (027 degrees from Corregidor) and Kure (030 degrees from Corregidor).

Official OP-20-GYP-1 reports verify that zero decrypts of JN-25B were made prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. All the early JN-25B decrypts are listed in numerical order with Station Hypo, Pearl Harbor making the first decrypt in January 1942. See Stephen Budiansky's article, "Too Late For Pearl Harbor" in the December 1999 issue of "U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings and my article, "Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor? No!: The Story of the U.s. Navy's Efforts on JN-25B. In addition, Commander Rudolph Fabian, the Officer-in-Charge of Station C Corregidor testified before a Congressional committee about breaking JN-25B before the war. "We were in the initial stages, sir. We had established liaison with the British unit at Singapore. We were exchanging values both code and cipher, but we had not developed either to the point where we could read enemy intercepts." Stinnett dismisses Captain Whitlock's confirmation of this no decrypt testimony. The fact that Station C located the Akagi off Corregidor on 8 December 1941 based direction finder bearings on more radio deception activity is further evidence that they had not broken JN-25B and relied only on traffic analysis and direction finder bearings for their reports.

Stinnett blatantly misconstrued Station H's Comint Summary of 25 November 1941 that reported that ViceAdmiral Inoue, CinC Fourth Fleet in the mandated islands, was observed in "extensive communications" with many entities like Commander Submarines, Commander Carriers, Juluit and other mandate island bases as evidence that Nagumo violated radio silence and that U.S. Navy stations obtained bearings and fixes on such phantom radio transmissions. However, it was Inoue who was "observed" in the extensive communications not Nagumo. In the parlance of the times, the word "observed" meant these communications noted were only in the form of addressees of messages seen mostly on the Tokyo Fleet broadcast and not original radio transmissions as Stinnett alleges. Had Rochefort intended to describe extensive communications of Nagumo such an entry would have been under the heading of Combined Fleet and he would have specified "heard transmitting" instead of "observed." Thus, Stinnett completely turns the summary upside down to support his predetermined conspiracy agenda. Stinnett also erroneous states that this Comint Summary of 25 November covers the Japanese naval activity of 26 November 1941 when Nagumo departed Hitokappu Bay due to the time difference of the International Date Line. However, all U.S. Naval radio intelligence logs, messages, supervisor's reports and Comint Summaries covering Japanese naval activities used the Tokyo [-9] time zone of their target to avoid confusion. Thus, this summary reported Japanese naval activity for 25 November when Nagumo was at Hitokappu Bay not 26 November 1941 as Stinnett claims.

Stinnett also claims some 129 violations of radio silence during a 21 day period which he implies is from mid-November on. The figure of 60 actual radio transmissions by Admiral Nagumo being intercepted is ridiculous. Only a few were seen on the Tokyo broadcast and were not original radio transmissions. The messages were undoubtedly filed while in port by messenger, blinker or landline. None of these alleged transmissions by Nagumo were during his transit from Hitokappu Bay to Hawaii. The same for the 40 messages allegedly sent by radio by Kido Butai carrier commanders and units. Stinnett even makes the absurd claim that 25 messages sent on the Tokyo fleet broadcast by Yamamoto and other commands and ships were violations of radio silence. The reason for using the broadcast method of transmission from shore stations is to maintain radio silence by not requiring ships and commands to use their transmitters to receipt for messages.

Philip H. Jacobsen
Lieutenant Commander, USN (ret.)






http://www.usncva.org/


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Offlinetrippindad82
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: d33p]
    #7549251 - 10/22/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/fdrknew.html
Quote:

PEARL HARBOR:
FDR KNEW
Churchill wrote in his Nobel Prize winning series on WWII that FDR knew about the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor. The following is from pages 602-603 of THE GRAND ALLIANCE, c1950. Churchill makes these points about his good friend and colleague FDR, accusing him of treason while knowing that the facts would eventually come out:

1. Hawaii's commanders did not get proper warning.
2. Churchill was not going to judge what FDR did at Pearl Harbor.
3. FDR and he were very afraid that the US could not come into the war unless Japan attacked the U.S.
4. Pearl Harbor was worth the price.
5. FDR "knew the full and immediate purpose" of the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.
6. FDR welcomed the attack.
7. And this amazing statement: "Nor must we allow the account in detail of diplomatic interchanges to portray Japan as an injured innocent..." That is an admission, granted forced by the facts, that Japan WAS the injured innocent, maneuvered into firing the first shot, as Secretary of War Stimson put it. Cabinet Minister Sir Oliver Lyttelton, expressed the same point on June 20, 1944, to the American Chamber of Commerce: "Japan was provoked into attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty on history ever to say that America was forced into the war. Everyone knows where American sympathies were. It is incorrect to say that America was ever truly neutral even before America came into the war on a fighting basis." - See PH VERDICT OF HISTORY, Prange, pp 39-40.

CHURCHILL:
"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in 1946 in which every detail was exposed ofthe events leading up to the war between the United States and Japan and of the failure to send positive "Alert" orders through the military departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations. Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese telegrams and their actual texts, has been exposed to the world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required by the spirit of the American Constitution.

I do not intend in these pages to attempt to pronounce judgment upon this tremendous episode in American history. We know that all the great Americans round the President and in his confidence felt, as acutely as I did, the awful danger that Japan would attack British or Dutch possessions in the Far East, and it would carefully avoid the United States, and that in consequence Congress would not sanction an American declaration of war...The President and his trusted friends had long realized the grave risks of United States neutrality in the war against Hitler and what he stood for, and had writhed under the restraints of a Congress whose House of Representatives had a few months before passed by only a single vote the necessary renewal of compulsory military service, without which their Army would have been almost disbanded in the midst of the world convulsion. Roosevelt, Hull, Stimson, Knox, General Marshall, Admiral Stark, and, as a link between them all, Harry Hopkins, had but one mind...

A Japanese attack upon the United States was a vast simplicfication of their problems and their duty. How can we wonder that they regarded the actual form of the attack, or even its scale, as incomparably less important than the fact that the whole American nation would be united for its own safety in a rightous cause as never before? To them, as to me, it seemed that for Japan to attack and make war upon the United States would be an act of suicide. Moreover, they knew, earlier than we in Britain could know, the full and immediate purpose of their enemy. We remember how Cromwell exclaimed when he watched the Scottish army descending from the heights over Dunbar, "The Lord hath delivered them into our hands."

"Nor must we allow the account in detail of diplomatic interchanges to portray Japan as an injured innocent seeking only a reasonable measure of expansion or booty from the European war, and now confronted by the United States with propositions which her people, fanatically aroused and fully prepared, could not be expected to accept. For long years Japan had been torturing China by her wicked invasions and subjugations. Now by her seizure of Indo-China she had in fact, as well as formally by the Tripartite Pact, thrown her lot with the Axis Powers. Let her do what she dared and take the consequences.

"It had seemed impossible that Japan would court destruction by war with Britain and United States, and probably Russia in the end. A declaration of war by Japan could not be reconciled with reason. I felt sure she would be ruined for a generation by such a plunge, and this proved true. But governments and people do not always take rational decisions. Sometimes they take mad decisions, or one set of people get control who compel all others to obey and aid them in folly..."




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Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


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Offlinetrippindad82
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7549275 - 10/22/07 09:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/fdr_churchill.html

Quote:

(1) In discussing Japanese naval movements from Hittukapp Bay in the Kuriles, both FDR and WC were aware of them, but FDR said they were moving south. No, said WC:

WC: Franklin, it is headed East.

FDR: Surely you must be ... will you repeat that please?

WC: I said to the East. This force is sailing to the East...towards you.

FDR: Perhaps they set an easterly course to fool any observers and then plan to swing South to support the landings in the southern area. I have ...

WC: No, at this moment, their forces are moving across the northern Pacific and I can assure you that their goal is in the (conversation broken) fleet in Hawaii. At Pearl Harbor.

FDR: This is monstrous. Can you tell me ... indicate ... the nature of your intelligence? Without compromising your sources...

WC: Yes, I will have to be careful. Our agents in Japan have been reporting on the gradual (conversation broken) units. And these have disappeared from Japanese home waters. We also have highly reliable sources in the Japanese foreign service and even in the military.
****

FDR: The obvious implication is that the Japs are going to do a Port Arthur on us at Pearl Harbor. Do you concur? [Editor's Note: Japan attacked Port Arthur, destroying the Russian fleet in a "sneak attack."]

WC: I do indeed. Unless they add an attack on the Panama Canal to this vile business. I can hardly envision the canal as a primary goal, especially with your fleet lying athwart their lines of communication with Japan. No, if they do strike the canal, they will have to first neutralize your fleet.

FDR: The worst form of treachery. We can prepare our defenses on the islands and give them a warm welcome when they come. It certainly would put some iron up Congress's ass.
****

FDR: I think torpedoes would be ruled out at the outset. Pearl is far too shallow to permit a successful torpedo attack. .. What do your people give you as the actual date of the attack?

WC: The actual date given is the eighth of December. That's a Monday. [Editor's note: Churchill and the British got this wrong; they didn't realize that on the 8th in Japan, it was the 7th in Hawaii.]
****

FDR: But Monday seems odd. Are you certain?

WC: It is in the calendar. Monday is the eighth.

FDR ... then I will have to consider the entire problem. A Japanese attack on us, which would result in war between us ... and certainly you as well ... would certainly fulfill two of the most important requirements of our policy. Harry [Hopkins] has told me repeatedly ... that Stalin is desperate at this point. The Nazis are at the gates of Moscow, his armies are melting away.... there's no saying what could transpire if the Japs suddenly fell on Stalin's rear. In spite of all the agreements between them and the Japs dropping Matsuoka, there is still strong anti-Russian sentiment in high Japanese military circles.
****
FDR: ... not as capable as you are at translating their messages and the army and navy are very jealous of each other. There is so much coming in that everyone is confused. We have no agents in place in Japan [a lie- the USA had OSS operatives in place] and every day dozens of messages are (conversation broken) that contradict each other or are not well translated. I have seen three translations of the same message with three entirely different meanings. (conversation broken) address your concern about British holdings in the Pacific.... if the Japanese do attack both of us, eventually we will be able to crush them and regain all of the lost territories. As for myself, I will be damned glad to be rid of the Philippines.




--------------------
Trying to explain a journey to someone who has never experienced it is like trying to explain what a zebra looks like to  blind person who has never seen a horse.

^^^The above matter may be a complete fantasy that I concocted out of possible boredom.^^^


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Offlined33p
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7549367 - 10/22/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trippindad82 said:
http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/fdrknew.html
Quote:


CHURCHILL:
"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in 1946 in which every detail was exposed ofthe events leading up to the war between the United States and Japan and of the failure to send positive "Alert" orders through the military departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations. Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese telegrams and their actual texts, has been exposed to the world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required by the spirit of the American Constitution.








You got a link to that congressional inquiry and the relevant parts? I wasn't aware there was a congressional inquiry that evidences FDR to be guilty of treason.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: trippindad82]
    #7549378 - 10/22/07 10:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

trippindad82 said:
http://www.mansell.com/pow_resources/fdr_churchill.html





Is there a source for that conversation other than GESTAPO CHIEF: THE 1948 INTERROGATION OF HEINRICH MULLER? Most of that book is thought to be a forgery.


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OfflineObliviousSeeker
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: d33p]
    #7549646 - 10/22/07 11:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ A VERY INTERESTING FILM THAT MAY CHANGE YOUR OPINION ON A LOT OF THINGS INCLUDING THE TOPIC OF THIS DISCUSSION.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #7549944 - 10/23/07 04:58 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

nice video man 5 :mushroom2: for you, im enjoying this gunna make some hot chocolate


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: d33p]
    #7550022 - 10/23/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think maybe the dumbest thing heard from the "9/11 Truth" crowd, and there are lots of really dumb things to be heard, is the constant comparison of one thing to another as though they should be equivalents. The saddest part is I don't even think it's dumb so much as dishonest.

Planes that crashed in lots of other flights left tons of debris, but the Shanksville plane left very little.... as if there isn't a difference between a plane that crashes when the pilot is trying to mitigate damage, bleed off speed, and bring the plane in as non-violently as possible and a plane that slams into something at full speed?

Or a building that was clipped by the wing of a small plane is compared to the WTC as evidence that the towers should not have fallen.

Or WTC7 is compared (CONSTANTLY) to other buildings that had fires but didn't collapse...but WTC7 also had major structural damage.

Or a steel building is compared to a steel-reinforced concrete building.

The list goes on and on. Then there are all the massive ASSumptions. Like how could those airliners have made it past the defenses of jet patrols and anti-air turrets? But no "Truthers" ever seem to consider (although they probably do consider it but quickly bury the thought so that it doesn't weaken the case for their fantasy) that most people would be a bit hesitant to make the call to blow a civilian passenger jet out of the sky.


And to really believe that the WTC was taken down by controlled demo, you can't afford to think through the most obvious questions like: What's the use? Why did the towers (and that all important WTC7!) have to come down? Wouldn't flying the planes into the buildings have been enough for the "New Pearl Harbor"?


Actually the stupidest part about the whole thing is that the "Truthers" could still indict the Administration without all the controlled demo, missile, thermite, melted steel jibber jabber just on the plain fact of U.S. foreign policy since the end of WW2. That message could really be emphasized through reasoned, soundly-evidenced arguments and could really help make people aware of history in a meaningful way. But that sort of dry, factual chronicle just isn't as fun as imagining black ops teams rigging up the towers with super top secret explosives I guess. Plus, it's a little harder to make a slick, spooky internet video when the topic is stuff like building bases on foreign soil and selling weapons to rogue militant factions and the formation of akward alliances that lead to long-term resentment.

Why do these people refuse to drop the delusions? Do they really lack the ability to think critically? Or is it like the addict who can't get over it -- he hasn't yet suffered enough for his bad habit to make him quit. I'm talking about the crowd that is totally steeped in the conspiracy. Their scope of 9/11 involves the day itself. It isn't concerned with the events leading up to 9/11 - they aren't necessary to explain demolishing the WTC with explosives, a motive and a theoretical plan explains it all. These people aren't really interested in truth, just another form of infotainment.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7550033 - 10/23/07 06:24 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

How can you guys deny the possibility of a conspiracy? If the government wanted to hide something, they'd hide it, wouldn't they?

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: JunkFood]
    #7550342 - 10/23/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JunkFood said:
How can you guys deny the possibility of a conspiracy? If the government wanted to hide something, they'd hide it, wouldn't they?




What I love is how most of this same Troother crowd lambasted the Bush administration for their incompetence after Hurricane Katrina, their incompetence running the Iraq war and protecting our ports and borders yet these same people somehow managed to pull off this incredibly elaborate coverup involving thousands of people not one of whom has come forward!

:rofl2:







--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (10/23/07 10:51 AM)

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: JunkFood]
    #7550345 - 10/23/07 10:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Does the government seem all that capable to you?

Do you not watch the news?

The government can't even get levees and wildfires under control, but you think that they planted thousands of pounds of explosives in inhabited buildings and then detonated them without anyone catchign wind of it?


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7550366 - 10/23/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The government is being as truthful to you about 9/11 as they are on the dangers of drugs.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7550408 - 10/23/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

And I should trust the people who are yelling about crop circles and the dangers of flouride in the water?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7550440 - 10/23/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
and the dangers of flouride in the water?




On what basis do you assume that fluridated water isn't harmful?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7550525 - 10/23/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yes everything is purely black and white. You can't believe in the idea that our government is hiding info without believing in crop circles and reptillions taking us over.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7551042 - 10/23/07 02:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If you've actually taken the time to research crop circles and you still believe that they are man made.. I'm talking about the intricate weaving of the corn/wheat stalks, the change in cellular structure and the overall astounding complexity of some of the designs..

I duno. short crop circle video


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7551084 - 10/23/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7551229 - 10/23/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's a cool site, but of course humans are going to try to replicate these things, whatever they may be. Thousands have appeared over the years. A group of enthusiasts aren't going to be able to 'cover that much ground' so to speak.

And in some of the crop circles they made, inaccuracies are apparent. Imperfect circles for the most part.

I wonder if they could make this one


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Edited by WScott (10/23/07 02:58 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7551317 - 10/23/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I was under the impression that the people who made that one in your post were some of the most famous crop-circle guys in England?

Rod Dickinson and John Lundberg?

Don't they have videotape of themselves making it?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7551332 - 10/23/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One Question...how many people who belive in the conspiracy of the WTC are actually from America? Im just wandering if all the conspiracy belivers are actually from America or if your mostly from other countries.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7553025 - 10/23/07 10:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

JunkFood said:
How can you guys deny the possibility of a conspiracy? If the government wanted to hide something, they'd hide it, wouldn't they?




What I love is how most of this same Troother crowd lambasted the Bush administration for their incompetence after Hurricane Katrina, their incompetence running the Iraq war and protecting our ports and borders yet these same people somehow managed to pull off this incredibly elaborate cover up involving thousands of people not one of whom has come forward!

:rofl2:






so you think the gov hired bobs electric to wire up the bombs?

i understand everyone has different opinions, i understand I'm a tinfoil hat and it pisses me off and people enjoy saying it so much...but this thread also reveals another type of person the complete opposite of tinfoil hats...I'm not sure what the popular name is for you folk.

it doesn't aggravate me so much that you don't agree with my personal opinions, its more that you lack the ability to think outside a TV box....that its impossible that we were lied to.

here's an example of this:
i said before maybe they demoed the building to save lives...but no...its impossible we were lied to.

even tho that scenario is completely impossible because the demolition was set before the planes hit.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7553062 - 10/23/07 10:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This thread makes me laugh every time I read it. Keep it coming guys, jump through the hoop for daddy. :laugh:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7553434 - 10/24/07 12:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Aliens are real and Crop Circles are real, but they aren't made by Aliens,
Crop Circles are generated by humans from underground cities using microwave vortices.

The WTC attacks were not only allowed to happen, they were made to happen by the same people that control the White House.
GWB, Blair, etc. are just puppets doing their jobs. Just as with OK City, and the Space Shuttle disasters, the WTC attack was a mass ritual human sacrifice.

I know it sounds crazy, but what's even crazier is that it's true.

Big changes are headed our way, so get your kicks while you can people...

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: jccc]
    #7553655 - 10/24/07 03:44 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jccc said:
One Question...how many people who belive in the conspiracy of the WTC are actually from America? Im just wandering if all the conspiracy believers are actually from America or if your mostly from other countries.


not "America" Israel / World bank / PNAC / and anyone who is for controling the Oil while establishing an American occupation.

<adjusts tin foil hat>OoD


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7553658 - 10/24/07 03:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)








here's an example of this:
i said before maybe they demoed the building to save lives...but no...its impossible we were lied to.

even tho that scenario is completely impossible because the demolition was set before the planes hit.




why did Silverstein (guy who "owned the buildings" take out a several billion dollar insurance claim a week or two before 9/11.
im sorry thats too much of a coinkydink for me.
Also, when seasoned professionals (firemen/police) swear they heard/saw explosions as they were running by/ some inside as it was occuring - I have to defer to them - They are used to these kinds of disaster situations, and don't lose it as quickly as Joe Q Public - so i believe them when they say they heard/ saw explosions.
I think Loose Change is so controversial because it shows something ppl don't want to believe.
If the ends justify the means, then so be it.

F that - I want impeachment and trial at the Hague for the whole friggin cabinet + Blair for being complicit.


OoD


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Oracle Of Delphi]
    #7553891 - 10/24/07 06:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

why did Silverstein (guy who "owned the buildings" take out a several billion dollar insurance claim a week or two before 9/11.
im sorry thats too much of a coinkydink for me.

Also, when seasoned professionals (firemen/police) swear they heard/saw explosions as they were running by/ some inside as it was occuring - I have to defer to them - They are used to these kinds of disaster situations, and don't lose it as quickly as Joe Q Public - so i believe them when they say they heard/ saw explosions.




I post these two links for the third time now in this thread --

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.911myths.com/index.html

Both your points are thoroughly explained at these two sites and at dozens of others, but these two cover pretty much everything.

Quote:

I think Loose Change is so controversial because it shows something ppl don't want to believe.




Loose Change is "controversial" because pretty much every point it makes has been thoroughly debunked by several different sources, and because its creators are even more dishonest than Michael Moore. There are least two sites out there which dissect it almost frame by frame. There has probably never been another movie made anywhere at any time which so deliberately and knowingly distorts nearly everything it covers. It's not that people "don't want to believe", it's that what Loose Change presents is non-factual, and easily shown to be so.



Phred


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Phred]
    #7554201 - 10/24/07 09:16 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

But it has such a spooky soundtrack.

It MUST be true!


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7554671 - 10/24/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The government doesn't care about the lives of the average American person. We are expendable assets to them. They care about controlling the masses in order to help them accomplish goals that only benefit themselves. Hell, even soldiers of the military are expendable to them and they are the men and women that work closest with and protect the government.

I firmly believe that our government would gladly sacrifice thousands more lives if it puts them in a position to gain more global power. Especially if its the lives of average citizens that don't have anything special that our government wants.

I don't need to see any physical evidence or scientific studies to convince me of a conspiracy. I look closer at the actions of men, their demeanor, body language, speech patterns, nervous ticks and all the other little things that the average American sheep looks right past. I can see the dishonesty, manipulation, and greed all over the place. I can hear the change in their voice when they lie. They stutter and hesitate. I can see it in their eyes. They dodge the most important questions because they might be exposed by answering honestly. They continually over exaggerate the threat of terrorism, and will only act on behalf of the American people if we make them feel obligated. Look at Hurricane Katrina. If anything proves that they don't give a shit about us it is that. This WAR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTECTING US OR THE IRAQI PEOPLE AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH MONEY AND OIL.


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Edited by postanaldrip (10/24/07 12:02 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7554891 - 10/24/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Okay.

So where is the oil?

This war has not raised our power in the globe one bit. If anything, the entire globe sees how pathetic and powerless we are. Does Iran look scared to you? Does Turkey look scared?

No.

Your whole argument falls flat right there...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7556066 - 10/24/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Okay.

So where is the oil?

This war has not raised our power in the globe one bit. If anything, the entire globe sees how pathetic and powerless we are. Does Iran look scared to you? Does Turkey look scared?

No.

Your whole argument falls flat right there...






"We are the ones that should be worried" - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, saying that it isn't America and her citizens, but Iran and hers, that should be worried.

Also, I don't think it is America that is being called for being 'evil scumfucks', but the powers that be that control the mass media of the world (among other things). I was watching a video the other day about Ron Paul, despite being very high in reader polls, ratings, etc. He fails to get mentioned on mass media, time and time again. And this isn't only in the States, but in many other countries such as France and some other European country (can't find the video right now). So, parallels and similarities in the context of bias and slant can be traced across borders.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7556160 - 10/24/07 05:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

There are psychological explanations for why conspiracy theories are so seductive. Academics who study them argue that they meet a basic human need: to have the magnitude of any given effect be balanced by the magnitude of the cause behind it. A world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like Sept. 11 needs a grand conspiracy behind it. "We tend to associate major events--a President or princess dying--with major causes," says Patrick Leman, a lecturer in psychology at Royal Holloway University of London, who has conducted studies on conspiracy belief. "If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us." In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting.




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304-3,00.html


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7558749 - 10/25/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Okay.

So where is the oil?

This war has not raised our power in the globe one bit. If anything, the entire globe sees how pathetic and powerless we are. Does Iran look scared to you? Does Turkey look scared?

No.

Your whole argument falls flat right there...




"We are the ones that should be worried" - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, saying that it isn't America and her citizens, but Iran and hers, that should be worried.

Also, I don't think it is America that is being called for being 'evil scumfucks', but the powers that be that control the mass media of the world (among other things). I was watching a video the other day about Ron Paul, despite being very high in reader polls, ratings, etc. He fails to get mentioned on mass media, time and time again. And this isn't only in the States, but in many other countries such as France and some other European country (can't find the video right now). So, parallels and similarities in the context of bias and slant can be traced across borders.




In actual news from Tehran...

Quote:

Military commander Major General Ataollah Salehi has described the domestic production of the Saeqeh as "a warning to Western countries that threaten" Iran. He added that such countries "must know that while they are trying to turn other countries against [Iran] with their limited capabilities in the region," Iran "possesses unlimited technology" with which it can oppose those threats.




http://www.payvand.com/news/07/oct/1214.html


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7558895 - 10/25/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

All I have to say is that I think all this talk about WTC 7, demolition, and missiles, if anything, is a government conspiracy aimed to discredit any real questions that need to be asked about 9/11.

When you step back and think about it, it's pretty ridiculous. I was intrigued by the idea at first, but then I realized..."hey, wait a minute, lack of evidence is proof of NOTHING!" But all this talk completely discredits the important questions: Why didn't we go after Osama when we knew he was in pakistan? Why did we go to war w/iraq when it is now clear that there was never a serious WMD threat? Who actually paid for the 9/11 attacks? Why wouldn't Bush & Cheney go on the record at the 9/11 commission? Have you SEEN condoleeza rice's testimony to the commission? Look it up on youtube.

The commission was clearly a cover up, I mean, for christ's sake they tried to put KISSINGER in charge, the king of cover-ups.

The U.S. government didn't fly missiles into it's own towers, but it probably was complicit to the whole thing, which is almost worse, and the REAL "conspiracy."

Watch PBS's Frontline episode, "The Dark Side" or 9/11: Press for Truth (the ONLY decent and mostly-legit 9/11 film to come out.)


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7567721 - 10/27/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

where is the oil? its still in Iraq. The original intention was to secure that oil by making it seem like we are providing them the heroic deed of bringing democracy to their country, in essence creating an obligation for them to support or oil consumption needs when we are unable to provide for ourselves. The "threat of terrorism" is nothing more than a cover that hides the truth. You have to be blind not to see it.

As a nation, no, we have not gained any global power, even though its what our government wanted. However, I'm sure that Bush, Cheney and many other government officials have profited grossly from this war. And we all know that in this world, money equals power.

It doesn't matter if Iran or Turkey is scared of us because we live in a country full of extremely loyal citizens that will fight and die to protect their freedoms, and our government knows this. The lives of the people in power, calling the shots, and sitting back with their feet up are not in jeopardy. They don't care if thousands die, as long as their mansions and bank accounts are secure.

This conspiracy goes way deeper than any of us will ever know. Its my belief and I will not be convinced otherwise. So your argument just fell flat on its face.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7567725 - 10/27/07 07:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

werd


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7567740 - 10/27/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

When you consider all the sweatshops (slave labor, lets call it what it is) in the world producing goods almost solely for European and North American consumption, it makes you wonder not what the government is capable of, but what the government and her people (myself included unfortunately) are not capable of.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7567781 - 10/27/07 07:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Its my belief and I will not be convinced otherwise.




I think that sums up nicely the attitude of the Troofer crowd.

Don't bother us with facts. We have already made up our minds.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7567791 - 10/27/07 07:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What he means is: It's my belief and I will not be convinced otherwise, based on the current evidence.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7567794 - 10/27/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Its my belief and I will not be convinced otherwise.




I think that sums up nicely the attitude of the Troofer crowd.

Don't bother us with facts. We have already made up our minds.




I think he is saying that based on the apparent corruption and greed of the leaders of this country. If they are willing to discard the lives of others for material gain, what makes a 9/11 conspiracy so impossible?


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: antiPock]
    #7567908 - 10/27/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm no conspiracy junkie, but just why did building 7 collapse? That is the tricky question to me.

Yeah, so the evil gumint was somehow smart enough to wire up *THREE* buildings with explosives but somehow miscounted on how many planes to send.

Uh huh! :yesnod:

And while I'm at it:

First, picture the demolitions teams wiring up the World Trade Center towers with explosives prior to the attack. Obviously you couldn't do it during business hours, since it'd be kind of hard to explain to the 100,000 people who worked at or visited the WTC towers on any given day why you had a huge chunk of wall torn out and were wiring up a bomb on the steel beams there.

I mean, keep in mind, I don't know how big of a job that would be (no one has ever demolished a building that size before) but a building just half the size of one WTC tower took 4,000 separate charges to bring down. Four thousand.

That job took seven months of prep work... and they had the run of an abandoned building, without having to hide their work from 100,000 people every day. Our demolition crew, on the other hand, can work only at night and has to spend the last bit of every shift carefully repairing the wall and hiding any evidence of charges or detonators as not to be discovered during the day.

Huge teams of demolitions experts, who had no problem wiring a building full of innocent New Yorkers to explode, hired in secret, worked every night for what had to be a year (and that's only if they had a big enough crew) placing maybe 10,000 separate charges in each tower and another few thousand in WTC 7 (the smaller WTC tower that also collapsed, later in the day on 9/11).


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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7568165 - 10/27/07 10:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If they are willing to discard the lives of others for material gain, what makes a 9/11 conspiracy so impossible?




Oh, I don't know. Nothing except for the fact there is ZERO evidence for it.  :shrug:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7568515 - 10/28/07 01:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Ok. I have to admit I thought conspiracy theories were stupid too until I saw this Zeitgeist. I am still not convinced or anything, but I am kinda going WTF? There are some VERY real questions that don't seem to have answers. (If you are silly and still believe in that "God" guy, you should skip the first part of this movie or your world might fall apart before your eyes.) But the rest of the movie is about conspiracies, and some of it is DEFINITELY true.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7572859 - 10/29/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

What facts? Every time people start asking important questions that desperately need factual answers we get the run around.

How many times did I watch that little weasel Scott McClellan pass up opportunities to present the facts to this Nation? If our government wasn't hiding information, than they wouldn't be avoiding all these crucial questions. questions that could absolve them of any wrong doing. However, they feel so threatened and backed into a corner by all the suspicion that they have no choice but to lie to us all.

The only facts that they want us to know are the ones that make it look like their intentions are pure.

Truth is, we are pretty much in the dark when it comes to the facts. We will never know the whole story.

All I can do is gather as much information as I can and view it with an unbiased collectivity. which I have done.

I watched the top of those towers fall and hit no resistance on the way down. I saw the explosions shoot out the sides of the buildings. I saw the interviews with the NY Fire fighters that said when they went into the buildings initially there was massive damage on the ground level. They said huge slabs of marble were blown off the walls in the lobby and that peoples skin was burned off. They also said they heard explosions just prior to the buildings collapsing and the whole time they were free falling. I saw the tower that got hit second go down first. Wheres the logic in that. I saw our president react in a manner that suggested he was expecting this to happen.

Ive heard the "facts", and Ive deciphered that most of them are not facts. They are nothing more than feeble attempts to explain away the conspiracy theories.

Ill believe a New York firefighter any day before ill believe someone like Scott McClellan.

What facts do you have that may convince me otherwise? chances are, youve got nothing.


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Edited by postanaldrip (10/29/07 01:04 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7572910 - 10/29/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Are the thousands of dead soldiers that were sent into Iraq prematurally, without a plan for victory, not evidence that our government doesnt care about, not only the soldiers lives, but the lives of their family members as well?


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7572975 - 10/29/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What facts do you have that may convince me otherwise? chances are, youve got nothing.




Many of your questions have already been covered and debunked in this thread. I see a few in your post I have personally already answered here. It becomes rather tiresome to tread the same ground over and over for each person who drops into this thread without doing their homework first.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7574514 - 10/29/07 09:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't ask a single question that didn't have a rhetorical answer, other than the question I asked you and I'm not going to read through all ten pages of this thread to find them. Ive been doing my "homework" since the days after this shit popped off 6 years ago. Like I suspected, you have absolutely nothing compelling to change my mind. Just a hollow reply that implies you didn't even come close to capturing the essence of what Ive said. You haven't even commented on the most important points Ive tried to make.


Just like all the other pawns who run on blind faith, it seems you believe, as long as it supports what you want to believe, what others say, just because they say it is a fact.
Even though it may be impossible to verify as a fact. Thats where judgment and logicality should be implied in order to discern whether or not its truly a fact or just made up crap that the government thinks we need to hear in order to keep order. You are defending tyrants who are quite genius and manipulative. Its all good though, keep believing that our government is run by a bunch of saints.

So you say you've presented facts that debunk all the conspiracy theories. Just ask yourself if they are really facts or just here-say presented as "facts". Can they be verified? Did you discover these "facts" or did they come from somebody else and you believed it?


Like I said, I find there to be a serious lack of credible facts coming from each side of this debate, thats why I'm stressing that it is important to use logic, common sense and sound judgment to come to a conclusion. So, until you have credible facts that can be verified and proven don't waste your time on me.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7574638 - 10/29/07 09:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Like I suspected, you have absolutely nothing compelling to change my mind.




Considering that you have stated your mind is already made up, I don't think anyone is going to waste much time answering you when your questions have already been addressed ad nauseam. :shrug:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: zorbman]
    #7575233 - 10/30/07 01:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who owns http://www.debunking911.com/

Oh that's right... some faceless coward who won't reveal his identity.


Hmm...

Sorry Phred, but your site has zero credibility.

Keep eating the grass though, your wool will make me a nice hat some day.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kake]
    #7575655 - 10/30/07 08:01 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

You guys are hilarious.

What does it matter if you know the guy's name or not? The information he presents is either factual or it isn't, whether his name is David Jefferson or Mickey Mouse.

And of course, there is nothing on his site that can't be found on dozens of others -- the stuff he presents is all public domain, and available to anyone willing to spend the same amount of time searching the web that he has. I listed his site (and the other one -- which I note you fail to comment on even though it covers lots of the same stuff) more or less at random. I could have listed literally dozens (hell... maybe even hundreds by now) of others which debunk the Troofer koolaid in just as great detail.




Phred


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Phred]
    #7575699 - 10/30/07 08:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

OK well i looked at your website when you listed it, lets add something new to this thread now, lets critically analyze the points from both sides together? Using that website you listed as a template. Basically lets go threw that website and see what can and can't be proved?

lets start with the free fall idea.

The tinfoil people say the building fell at freefall speeds and didn't seem to be slowed down by the structions of each floors..in a nutshell the floors must have been blown out for this to happen.

The sheep people say the tinfoil's are wrong and that it didn't fall at freefall speeds, based on a photo of debreeze that shows dust and crap falling faster than the building...which indicated the building fell slower than freefall(debreeze).

So I looked at both sides biasly, and obviously still side with the great tinfoil people because an idea popped into my head, would it not be possible that the explosives blew the debreeze out, causing them to fall at a faster speed???

in essence, the debreeze do have rockets pointed downward...until that explosive momentum wears out? at which point, even thow that momentum has stopped, the debreeze will be so much farther down that it looks like the building still didn't fall at freefall speeds.

So firstly, constructive opinions on my idea plz? Disagree if you will, but lets run with this idea alittle shall we? and cut down the the pointless bickering.

I have something else to add to this idea, a way to prove it one way or the other, but rather than point it out, i would like to see peoples responses, especially some of the high ranking sheep people.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7575791 - 10/30/07 09:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's a very good point. I've heard two things also... that free fall would've taken 9 seconds, and that free fall would've taken 11 seconds. Well it took about 14. Now if you anti-conspiracy theorists are relying on THAT as your counter-argument, honestly I think you're just supporting the "tinfoilers". I think you better come up with something better. That's still pretty fucking close to free fall speed, and with the amount of material, steel, etc. in that building, it'd be a physical impossibility I think for it to fall at precisely free fall, even with a controlled demo.

makaveli8x8 you make a very valid point. Explosions/energy are going to push material in all directions, including down and out.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kake]
    #7575901 - 10/30/07 09:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

kake writes:

Quote:

Now if you anti-conspiracy theorists are relying on THAT as your counter-argument, honestly I think you're just supporting the "tinfoilers". I think you better come up with something better.




Sigh. There is no need to "come up with" something better. The claim of the Troofers that the collapse took place at "near free-fall" speed has been shown to be false.

Quote:

That's still pretty fucking close to free fall speed...




Actually, no it isn't. A difference of 60% (or more -- some estimates place the duration of collapse at closer to 18 seconds than to 14) is not "pretty fucking close" at all. A ten per cent difference is pretty fucking close. Maybe even a twenty per cent difference if you want to stretch things to the limit. But a 60% difference? Not hardly.



Phred


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Phred]
    #7576042 - 10/30/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hey i just spotted this on youtube and i don't think anyone has shown it before so new material here.



edit: here's a better doc on it

">


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Edited by makaveli8x8 (10/30/07 10:39 AM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7576060 - 10/30/07 10:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think if you're going to post a video, you should post a synopsis of what it says.

Nobody is going to watch all 400 videos posted in this thread, and I really dont take you seriously if all you can do to support your argument is post a video by someone else.

Do you have thoughts on it? Do you think its accurate?

I'll be happy to debate with a person until the cows come home, but I'm not going to watch videos all day.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7576099 - 10/30/07 10:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)



can someone clear this up for me, at the end of this video they point to a building as say its still standing even thow they reported it had fallen already, is that really the building?

any proof when this report came out, and if it really did get aired ahead of time?


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kake]
    #7576107 - 10/30/07 10:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Conforming to non-conformity makes you just as stupid as the general populace.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7576125 - 10/30/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

yes i think its accurate, i was sharing the video for those that have not seen it, as i clearly said "i don't think anyone has posted this video"

oh and your post is EXACTLY what i meant by POINTLESS BICKERING. If you don't want to watch the video skip my post, read a different thread, reply to the guy above me-> wtf?? but nope....


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7577026 - 10/30/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah...

Keep it coming guys, you are giving me quite a laugh here.

Especially you Makaveli for your complete inability to spell debris correctly.


debreeeeeeeze... :rofl:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7577234 - 10/30/07 03:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why aren't the names of the hijackers on the passenger lists?
Why is Osama not wanted for 9/11 according to the FBI's most wanted?
Why withold the Pentagon tapes?
Why were fighter jets not sent out?
Why the hell are we in Iraq?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7577257 - 10/30/07 03:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stizzle said:
Why aren't the names of the hijackers on the passenger lists?




This has been disproven 1000 times. You are absolutely wrong.
Quote:


Why is Osama not wanted for 9/11 according to the FBI's most wanted?




Uhh....

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

Quote:


Why withold the Pentagon tapes?
Why were fighter jets not sent out?





Covered ad nauseum in the rest of this thread.

Quote:

why the hell are we in iraq?




Now that is a real question....


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If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7577260 - 10/30/07 03:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Who's passenger list? They sure as hell were on the manifest.
He is on their most wanted list and they are offering a lofty reward for any information that leads to his capture or death. http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
Who cares if they withheld the tapes?
What were they supposed to do with the fighter jets?


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: robbyberto]
    #7577296 - 10/30/07 03:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Notice on the FBI's website it says nothing of 9/11... why?

Every passenger list I've seen did not have their names and I can't find where it's been disproven but I'd like to know.

I don't remember reading in this thread, what is the purpose of witholding the Pentagon security tapes? National Security?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7577313 - 10/30/07 03:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I doubt you can even leave the Pentagon with a flash drive, if you work there even, let alone make security camera tapes public :lol:

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7577330 - 10/30/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think its pretty well known and implied what they want him for. Funding and organizing terrorist groups such as the ones who bombed embassies in Africa, USS Cole, as well as all the terrorist attacks on 9/11/01. It says two of those on the list. We damn well know. I don't know why they took their names out. Maybe to protect their families, the flight schools that trained them, etc.
Maybe they just confiscated the videos to attempt to keep public moral up? It probably not that complicated.

Edited by robbyberto (10/30/07 04:54 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Boom]
    #7577584 - 10/30/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Boom said:
I doubt you can even leave the Pentagon with a flash drive, if you work there even, let alone make security camera tapes public :lol:




That's not the point. They went around to the nearby Hotels and Gas Stations that had cameras that could see the impact and confiscated THEIR tapes and never released them.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7577602 - 10/30/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Yea they won't release the tapes that would shut down every conspiracy out there.  That's why this thing will never end there are too many questionable answers and not enough answers to our questions. :crazy:

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7577626 - 10/30/07 05:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I think everyone should just drop it even if it is a conspiracy.

So if it is a conspiracy and the rest of the world finds out....

Were fucked so stfu.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Shroomism]
    #7578429 - 10/30/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
That's not the point. They went around to the nearby Hotels and Gas Stations that had cameras that could see the impact and confiscated THEIR tapes and never released them.




HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE SAW THE PLANE HIT THE BUILDING.

There was plane wreckage everywhere. Body parts were everywhere, of people who were on the flight. The fact is, that plane went SOMEWHERE. It was not whisked away into another dimension or whatever you nut-cases believe.

If all of that doesn't convince you, can you honestly say that a grainy "gas station or hotel" security camera video would convince you?

Honestly?

You're just grasping at straws.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7579103 - 10/31/07 12:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:If all of that doesn't convince you, can you honestly say that a grainy "gas station or hotel" security camera video would convince you?




Oh, you've seen it? What does it show hitting the Pentagon? There is actual footage of the event and it was confiscated. The grainy version you are talking about was the one released by your government to the public as proof of their version. If they are able to release that, why not the rest?


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7579764 - 10/31/07 08:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'd have liked to have seen how a plane could penetrate multiple walls of the pentagon. I guess it's not as strong and as armoured as has been publically stated!


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7580023 - 10/31/07 10:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:

<img src="
">




so no sheep people have any comment on this video then? or about my previous "debreeze" statement?


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7580059 - 10/31/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i was here in nyc, i work in the financial district...i watched the planes crash into the buildings with my own eyes.....you guys are retarded  :flowstone:  :tinfoil:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7580203 - 10/31/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think anyone has denied the planes hitting the towers... yet we are the retarded ones?

Also... why were you watching the first tower as it got hit, just curious.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7580227 - 10/31/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)







If grampa can build this, just imagine what our gov can do, oh wait you can just watch that video up above....


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

Edited by makaveli8x8 (10/31/07 11:13 AM)

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InvisibleBIGSWANG
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7580250 - 10/31/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i was late to work...i was walking from the city hall subway stop over to my building when i heard people start screaming....looked up...plane coming right for the tower...smashhhhh

then people started jumping out of windows, i saw a lady smash on the sidewalk and saw her blood spurt out of her body like a water balloon ....


what were you doing,.....just wondering...probably sitting in front of your computer trying to figure out who killed jfk...smelling like patchouli, smoking pot, no where near the towers, in your warm cozy home...how do model planes that shoot rockets account for the lives that where lost from the people inside the planes....they were real planes...they didnt shoot rockets out of the nose...there was no second explosion that sent the buildings crashing down.....none of you 9/11 conspiracy idiots where there...none of you saw what happened...you just sat on your computers and sat in front of t.v.s


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7580313 - 10/31/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
I'd have liked to have seen how a plane could penetrate multiple walls of the pentagon. I guess it's not as strong and as armoured as has been publically stated!




What do you think?

They have 10-inch thick titanium walls on the place?

Its the Military's Office Building. Not their fortress...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7580334 - 10/31/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

did you even watch that video i posted, and the last 2 pages i been "trying" to clean up this thread, alot of anger has been thrown around in here, and honestly NOBODY has made any valid points that prove that video wrong unless i missed something.

Infact all that has happened is a bunch of Bickering/flaming, in what i can only guess is an attempt to bury something the sheep people have no argument against.

oh and its kinda ironic you say the great tinfoil people would be infront of a tv during 9/11....

keep :snowman: around my posts


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7580353 - 10/31/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

im not going to even try to prove anything to you because the cold hard facts are pressed up against your face and you would rather live in a fantasy land and dream about missles coming out of the nose of a commercial jet  ....:tinfoil:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7580426 - 10/31/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BIGSWANG said:
:snowman:




:sheepie:

so...your just in here to flame people then...


--------------------
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7580441 - 10/31/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

lol....you are a sheep to the conspiracy theorists

you have no ideas of your own.....talk to me when youve seen it happen right in front of your face....oh wait..you didnt..and never will


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7580473 - 10/31/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If all you wanna do is flame me purhaps you could just PM me instead of derailing this thread?


--------------------
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7580480 - 10/31/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:tinfoil::rolleyes::flowstone:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7580509 - 10/31/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BIGSWANG said:
i was late to work...i was walking from the city hall subway stop over to my building when i heard people start screaming....looked up...plane coming right for the tower...smashhhhh

then people started jumping out of windows, i saw a lady smash on the sidewalk and saw her blood spurt out of her body like a water balloon ....


what were you doing,.....just wondering...probably sitting in front of your computer trying to figure out who killed jfk...smelling like patchouli, smoking pot, no where near the towers, in your warm cozy home...how do model planes that shoot rockets account for the lives that where lost from the people inside the planes....they were real planes...they didnt shoot rockets out of the nose...there was no second explosion that sent the buildings crashing down.....none of you 9/11 conspiracy idiots where there...none of you saw what happened...you just sat on your computers and sat in front of t.v.s




What's with the hostility and insults? I was just curious to know your observations that day and what would cause you to focus on the building. I am 3000 miles away from NYC so I was probably asleep as it happened and of course we "sat in front of t.v.s"

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Stizzle]
    #7580528 - 10/31/07 12:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

it came across rude to me the way you said it..so sorry if i offended you... what happened that day i just dont take very lightly ...i dont think you would either if you saw it happening right in front of you


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7580561 - 10/31/07 12:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Let's keep this thread on-topic and respectful.


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Asante]
    #7580584 - 10/31/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Let's keep this thread on-topic and respectful.




Damn skippy, no more disrespect or thread derailment is going to be allowed in this thread, play nice or get it locked down.


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PEACE

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7581036 - 10/31/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

All the tricks of lighting in that video have already been debunked many times and particularly by the Popular Mechanics analysis:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html


--------------------
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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: BIGSWANG]
    #7581118 - 10/31/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nobody is denying that planes hit the towers.

Did you see the plane hit the PENTAGON with your own eyes? Where you there? No you didnt and no you weren't.

I think all that each side wants here is admittance from the other side there may be a possibility of a conspiracy and there may have been no wrong doing whatsoever.

I admit there is the possibility that no foul play or conspiracy took place.

but I also recognize that there are a lot of important questions being dodged and something seems fishy about all of this. Making me think that a conspiracy was a possibility.

Anybody who is solely anchored on one side is clearly saying that they know everything there is to know when that is impossible. Lets all put our egos in check and find a middle ground. This ignorance being displayed is sad.


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"It's not until we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything." TDFC

Edited by postanaldrip (10/31/07 02:50 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7581166 - 10/31/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
I'd have liked to have seen how a plane could penetrate multiple walls of the pentagon. I guess it's not as strong and as armoured as has been publically stated!




What do you think?

They have 10-inch thick titanium walls on the place?

Its the Military's Office Building. Not their fortress...




Just working on what I have seen of boeing planes crashing into buildings. Even the plane that hit the tower at an angle just smashed up, with only small debris and a lot of fire escaping. The pentagon I'm pretty sure is solidly built, reinforced concrete, underground fusion reactors, giant laser cannons, and five articulated arms so it can become mecha pentagon*. The plane that hit it went in and on and on and on.

*May be bollocks. However, the lawn is indestructable


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7581314 - 10/31/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

While that lawn page is indeed funny, it is a ridiculous reason to believe that anything other than a plane hit the building... what reason is there to doubt this anyway? Why would we fire a missile at our own building?

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Boom]
    #7581445 - 10/31/07 04:08 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Why would we fire a missile at our own building?

Especially if, as the nut jobs insist, the government can somehow manage to crash two airplanes into the towers, all the while keeping the hundreds, maybe thousands of people who must have been involved COMPLETELY quiet. Crashing a plane into the Pentagon should be a piece of cake.

And nevermind that it takes MONTHS to wire a 20 story building for demolition, yet somehow the evil government managed to wire two ~100 story buildings for demolition with 200,000 people visiting every day, and NOBODY NOTICED!

And nevermind that the evil government can manage that outstanding feat of coordination but somehow is too incompetent to keep quiet the goings on in a military prison named Abu Ghraib and another one on an isolated military base on an island, called Gitmo.

And nevermind that missiles move at supersonic speeds, but there was no sonic boom.

And nevermind that hundreds of people actually saw with their own eyes an airplane crash into the Pentagon.

And nevermind the pieces of airplane littering the lawn at the Pentagon and the airplane engines found nearby.

Give me a break. This forum has sooo opened my eyes to why the human race is so hopelessly fucked up. No example of human stupidity amazes me any more; not after the shining examples demonstrated in threads like this one. :sad:


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Boom]
    #7581454 - 10/31/07 04:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It would be hard to go to war without some tragedy.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Diploid]
    #7582352 - 10/31/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

none of us have a clue what the government and all of its secret sectors are capable of or how long it would take them to wire a building (no matter what size it is) if they really wanted to. Quit acting like you know everything. Just admit there is the possibility of a conspiracy. like I said before, anybody who is anchored on one side or the other is displaying their ego and ignorance for everybody to see. Bottom line is NOBODY here knows what the truth is and none of us ever will. So lets drop this ego based battle of false information and "I know more than you" bullshit. This thread needs to end. We are all in the dark. So quit acting like you see the fucking light.


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OfflineThe_Ghost
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7582363 - 10/31/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

postanaldrip said:
none of us have a clue what the government and all of its secret sectors are capable of or how long it would take them to wire a building (no matter what size it is) if they really wanted to. Quit acting like you know everything. Just admit there is the possibility of a conspiracy. like I said before, anybody who is anchored on one side or the other is displaying their ego and ignorance for everybody to see. Bottom line is NOBODY here knows what the truth is and none of us ever will. So lets drop this ego based battle of false information and "I know more than you" bullshit. This thread needs to end. We are all in the dark. So quit acting like you see the fucking light.



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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7582371 - 10/31/07 08:53 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I mean, come on, my rating has dropped like a shroom and a half since I started posting in this thread. How egomaniac do you have to be to fuck with somebodies rating. Who cares? This all about people feeling butt hurt and wanting to get back at each other because of differences in opinion. Some seriously childish bullshit.

So everybody who is on one side or the other, to the extreme, needs to step back for a moment, maybe take a couple of grams of cubensis, and come back with a little bit more of an open mind.


--------------------
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Edited by postanaldrip (10/31/07 08:54 PM)

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7582377 - 10/31/07 08:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

none of us have a clue what the government and all of its secret sectors are capable of or how long it would take them to wire a building

The evil government can't do magic.

The only clue a non-moron needs to know is that a professional demolitions team takes months to wire a building a fraction the size of the towers with explosives.

And they have the run of an EMPTY building, not one with almost a quarter million visitors walking around every day who somehow don't notice the thousands of wall panels that have to be removed and then replaced so explosives can be attached to structures.

Duh.


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: postanaldrip]
    #7582619 - 10/31/07 10:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

postanaldrip said:
I mean, come on, my rating has dropped like a shroom and a half since I started posting in this thread.  How egomaniac do you have to be to fuck with somebodies rating. Who cares? This all about people feeling butt hurt and wanting to get back at each other because of differences in opinion.  Some seriously childish bullshit. 





Dude, you only have 3 shroom ratings total and 2 of them came from this thread. One supporting you and one against you. :rofl:


--------------------
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Diploid]
    #7582690 - 10/31/07 11:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The evil government can't do magic.





D00d, what?!

The Bush admin did such an obviously perfect A+ job with hurricane Katrina..the Iraq war.. and port and border security.. no one can say they can't go on to pull off an incredibly elaborate conspiracy involving thousands of people!

Pfffft!!

They just fake like their incompetent now and then to throw people off. :wink:


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Diploid]
    #7582737 - 11/01/07 12:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why would we fire a missile at our own building?

Especially if, as the nut jobs insist, the government can somehow manage to crash two airplanes into the towers, all the while keeping the hundreds, maybe thousands of people who must have been involved COMPLETELY quiet. Crashing a plane into the Pentagon should be a piece of cake.

And nevermind that it takes MONTHS to wire a 20 story building for demolition, yet somehow the evil government managed to wire two ~100 story buildings for demolition with 200,000 people visiting every day, and NOBODY NOTICED!

And nevermind that the evil government can manage that outstanding feat of coordination but somehow is too incompetent to keep quiet the goings on in a military prison named Abu Ghraib and another one on an isolated military base on an island, called Gitmo.

And nevermind that missiles move at supersonic speeds, but there was no sonic boom.

And nevermind that hundreds of people actually saw with their own eyes an airplane crash into the Pentagon.

And nevermind the pieces of airplane littering the lawn at the Pentagon and the airplane engines found nearby.

Give me a break. This forum has sooo opened my eyes to why the human race is so hopelessly fucked up. No example of human stupidity amazes me any more; not after the shining examples demonstrated in threads like this one. :sad:




well ill answer this before i leave, how did a plane hit the pentagon but not the light polls on the way their?? why is their only one hole and not 2?? there are 2 engines on that plane....and why did the fbi denie reporters pictures from certain angles??? and why did they have a crane their within hours making that hole bigger??? and their was no damage from the wings...yet in the 9/11 footage wings clearly do some visable damage.  and why was all video's confiscated???

and to the person who gave the link in response to my video's, that guy was paid to find a "rational" reason for why their looked like something was attached to the underside of the plane....if he said anything else he would be a laughing stock and be kicked out of his line of work....thats not to say he doesn't have a decent point however, but when you look at that photo it still looks like theirs something their with "my eyes".


...so even after the mods came in here and warned everyone to be respectful, the tinfoils get flamed yet again....this time we are not only stupid...but will are also the cause/reason humanity is so "hopelessly" fucked up....didn't really expect that from a "mod"

we think different so we must be stupid, i post a theory and get a response like "ive posted a link 1000 times" I go their find a loophole/theory/idea(<--yeah i gotta be careful how i word this or i get flamed again...) post it and what do i get in return??  :hellfire:

and i see why the sheep get pissed off, alot of times things have already been covered(with websites that do prove alot of things wrong with "FACTS") however the other half of them websites is full of profession "opinions" which are clearly not facts...and i think my "debreeze" statement a few pages back at least add's a question to that sopposedly "debunked" theory.

, but another reason the sheep get so mad is the tin foils keep asking questions...questions they themselves actually don't have an answer for and can't find a website discussing it.

anyways im done with this thread, i guess the sheep people have won in silenceing me. I would have liked to gone through more of the posts but im done...whoever said it, your right this thread is going nowhere because all people want to do is flame.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7582754 - 11/01/07 12:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

how did a plane hit the pentagon but not the light polls on the way their??



Several light poles WERE hit. Where do you get your misinformation? :flowstone:

why is their only one hole and not 2?? ... and their was no damage from the wings

A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building. Only someone completely ignorant of the most basic facts of structural engineering, but who thinks he has the first clue what the fuck he's talking about, would think otherwise.

the tinfoils get flamed yet again

I haven't flamed anyone in this thread. I've flamed conspiracy nut jobs in general.

It's just like flaming republicans.

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Diploid]
    #7582764 - 11/01/07 12:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

1 down....7 to go.

and you said shinning examples in this thread of stupidity....and their are tinfoils in here, just because you don't call them by name i don't see how that makes it different. I think they call that discrimination?


--------------------
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7582768 - 11/01/07 12:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

1 down....7 to go.

All your points have been addressed over and over again for anyone with an objective eye. I'm not going to do it again.

It's funny how it doesn't seem to bother you one little bit that you're so totally misinformed about the light poles. You've made up your mind but you haven't even bothered to get accurate facts first. The conspiracy ride is anti-government and that's all that counts. To hell with the truth. :flowstone:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 21,636
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Diploid]
    #7582781 - 11/01/07 01:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

well anyways here's a nice article for anyone who hasn't seen it then regarding the lightpoles just discussed. and i don't remember seeing any of these photo's so it must not have been discussed very much...probly because all the shining examples of sheep flames when its brought up.


http://911review.org/brad.com/pentagon/lightpoles/


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7582783 - 11/01/07 01:09 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

and i don't remember seeing any of these photo's

Of course not. True to form, accurate facts are not important to you. You've made up your mind in a vacuum because your pre-conclusion is conveniently anti-government. And like I said, that's all the conspiracy crowd cares about.

The Truth is irrelevant to you.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemakaveli8x8
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 21,636
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7582790 - 11/01/07 01:12 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

im in here because i like to discuss things...so no i try not to let things bother me but sometimes they do i admit, especially when people are trying to flame/discriminate me, or my sub-culture.

people miss things, this thread is huge, i only recall seeing the lightposts once and i can't even remember what peoples response was to it. However, i really don't think its appropriate for people to flame each other over such things.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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