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Prince of Bugs ![]() Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 3 months, 10 days |
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Quote: Source?
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Prince of Bugs ![]() Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 3 months, 10 days |
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Quote: I base it on the fact that either side could be wrong.
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Prince of Bugs ![]() Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 3 months, 10 days |
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Quote: Isn't that what I just said?
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Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 9 years, 18 days |
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Shroomism, the problem you have is that you are uncritically accepting the koolaid the Troofers are serving. Everything you have mentioned so far is either flatout wrong (the towers didn't collapse at "near free-fall speed", as just one example) or is readily explainable by simple application of the laws of physics.
I already posted these links earlier in the thread. I guess you missed them. http://www.debunking911.com/ http://www.911myths.com/index.ht These are just two of dozens of internet sites that convincingly handle every question I have seen raised in this thread. For that matter, they handle every question I've ever seen raised anywhere. I swear if I read one more time about "near free-fall" speed and "explosive squibs" I'll lose it and seriously flame someone and end up getting banned. What drives me nuts is the pious righteousness that those folks slinging the Troofer koolaid exhibit -- their insistence that the only reason no one takes their silliness seriously is that we're too lazy to look into the situation for ourselves, and content to lap up whatever BushCo spoonfeeds us. Well guess what, guys? The reverse is actually the case. Those of us who have actually expended more energy than sparking a bowl or two while gazing at some Unfastened Coins video on youtube; those of us who have actually expended some effort to find the answers to these same stupid questions posed over and over again, can do more than just parrot the same tired old "questions" prisonplanet and infowars trot out over and over and over again, we can actually answer them. You guys claim all you are doing is looking for answers? Go to one of those links and read the answers. It's that simple. Phred
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Space Travellin Registered: 02/13/00 Posts: 66,015 Loc: 9th Dimension |
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A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression. Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies. Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government. Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. Every generation needs a new revolution. Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories. Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny. Happy for us, that when we find our constitutions defective and insufficient to secure the happiness of our people, we can assemble with all the coolness of philosophers and set it to rights, while every other nation on earth must have recourse to arms to amend or to restore their constitutions. He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is. I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs. I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. I do not take a single newspaper, nor read one a month, and I feel myself infinitely the happier for it. I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master. I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. I have seen enough of one war never to wish to see another. I have sworn upon the alter of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive. I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. If God is just, I tremble for my country. If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest. Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty. It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people. Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations. My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. No government ought to be without censors; and where the press is free no one ever will. One man with courage is a majority. Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it. Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none. Politics is such a torment that I advise everyone I love not to mix with it. Power is not alluring to pure minds. Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves. The advertisement is the most truthful part of a newspaper. The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government. The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. The earth belongs to the living, not to the dead. The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical. War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses. We did not raise armies for glory or for conquest. We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country. We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe. Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe. Wisdom I know is social. She seeks her fellows. But Beauty is jealous, and illy bears the presence of a rival. - Thomas Jefferson.
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Prince of Bugs ![]() Registered: 10/08/02 Posts: 44,175 Last seen: 3 months, 10 days |
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Quote:
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Pepe Silvia Registered: 05/18/03 Posts: 13,678 Last seen: 11 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Thank you Phred. I always enjoy reading your posts. -------------------- Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.
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Space Travellin Registered: 02/13/00 Posts: 66,015 Loc: 9th Dimension |
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Quote: Quote: Quote: Have some links. http://www.the7thfire.com/Politi http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/ http://911review.org/Wiki/Flight Rumsfeld slips up -www.democrats.com/node/5056+miss
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Space Travellin Registered: 02/13/00 Posts: 66,015 Loc: 9th Dimension |
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I'm not sure I know what a "Troofer" is and I don't know what Kool-Aid you are referring to. If you are implying that I am a mindless drone of some cult here to drink something laced with deadly poisons, I find that rather insulting.
However I did take some time to look over your sites, and I must say a lot of it struck me as personal opinion and government sponsored propaganda. They don't have all the answers, as hard as they try. But they do have a lot of speculation and disclaimers stating this may or may not be the truth. Same old BS.
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Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers Registered: 03/06/03 Posts: 21,287 Loc: The Ocean of Notions Last seen: 5 months, 23 days |
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Are you kidding?
You people are raling about the WTC 7 collapse and how it was a controlled demolition, etc etc. There are about 100 quotes on the first website that Phred posted from people who actually were physically a part of the process that say why it is all bullshit. Is this hearsay? Fabrication? Are these people imaginary? -------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Space Travellin Registered: 02/13/00 Posts: 66,015 Loc: 9th Dimension |
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I never said anything about WTC 7. I did however say something about the twin towers and how they couldn't have fallen just from a plane hitting them. Those people however, could very well be imaginary, or paid off.
Not to mention who hijacked the planes and masterminded the whole thing in the first place. Our government is not as stupid as people think they are. Yeah, Bush is a moron. But he doesn't run the country.
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Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers Registered: 03/06/03 Posts: 21,287 Loc: The Ocean of Notions Last seen: 5 months, 23 days |
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How do you know they couldn't have fallen from an aircraft hitting them?
The ego in that statement is insane. You aren't any kind of structural engineer. You're a pothead musician. You don't have any more insight into this than Charlie Brown. And you refuse to believe anyone who DOES have that kind of insight, because their "The Man" How can you argue with logic like that... -------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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![]() Registered: 06/23/07 Posts: 7,953 Last seen: 1 year, 7 months |
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Quote: Hey! Don't mention things like that or operation northwoods. Those sorts of things can't be easily explained away. [sarcasm]Mention holographic planes, or UFO's. Aliens attacked the world trade centre. And they are working for the government.[/sarcasm] --------------------
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Well-PaidScienti Registered: 09/22/07 Posts: 579 |
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Quote: come on, now. You can match graphs, quotes, and physics theories with the other side all you want, but why harass someone for simply admitting they don't know and could never know what really happened without being there? I think an attitude of skepticism towards all 'data' relevant to this issue is perfectly healthy, no matter which side it comes from. I don't rule out the possibility that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are fucking nutbars, but at the same time I don't rule out the possibility that the government and the media are fucking liars. Its one of those things where, short of personally undertaking the studies to become an expert and having access to all the relevant data, I seriously doubt most people will ever know what really happened. Its kind of a matter of whose 'expert testimony' you believe. I love how everyone becomes a physics expert every time this discussion comes up. You ask me what I believe about 9/11 and I'll tell you I have no idea. I don't necessarily believe the conspiracy stories, but I sure as hell don't 100% swallow the official line, either. And the reason I say 'I don't know' is because I don't have the time and energy to become an expert in physics, architecture, and aviation and spend my whole life analyzing binders and binders of 3rd hand data trying to develop an expert opinion. What's wrong with that attitude? because if you think I should automatically trust the official line more than some whacko's pet theory, you obviously have more respect for the government and media than I do. You obviously have a predisposition to believe 'the official story' and are preaching this attitude to others. Almost as if you were COINTELPRO, infiltrating counterculture societies in order to plant seeds of doubt.
-------------------- "America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you've lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn't belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don't care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve." - Tom Morello
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blarrr Registered: 06/04/04 Posts: 5,952 |
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Quote: Those were not explosions but air from the upper floors being compressed from the collapse and blown down and out of the windows carrying smoke and debris with it. Exactly what would be expected from such a collapse. -------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers Registered: 03/06/03 Posts: 21,287 Loc: The Ocean of Notions Last seen: 5 months, 23 days |
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Your logic has no place here!
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Fred's son Registered: 10/18/00 Posts: 12,949 Loc: Dominican Republ Last seen: 9 years, 18 days |
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wps writes:
Quote: There was no harassment, just pointing out correctly that all her points regarding "not being there" apply equally to just about everything that goes on and has gone on in the world. Very very little of what you (or anyone else) know about the world was acquired through observing with your own eyes or performing experiments yourself. You got that knowledge from other people. Quote: And I disagree. It's one thing to go through life with an open mind and quite another thing indeed to walk around with your mind so wide open that it falls out your ears when you bend over. Is it 100% impossible that the whole thing was set up by the US government? Only in the sense that theoretically pretty much everything is possible. It is possible, for example, that all we know about human physiology is dead wrong, and that the reason your eyes follow the lines of text has nothing to do with your mind controlling muscles attached to your eyeballs -- instead they are moved by incredibly tiny invisible monkeys pulling invisible cables attached to an invisible pulley system. Similarly, any physicist familiar with quantum mechanics will tell you it is possible that two or three of the electrons of various atoms which make up your body are currently whizzing around somewhere out beyond the orbit of Saturn. Highly improbable, mind you (there are no words in any language to accurately describe just how improbable), but possible. What counts is how plausible something is. What is the probability that the whole thing was set up by the US government rather than fanatic Islamic nutjobs? When you look at all the evidence, the probability that it was the government is maybe 0.00000000000001 per cent. Not technically impossible, but so close to it that it might as well be. Quote: But that's the thing. No one has to be a physics "expert" to understand how the towers fell. None of this will strain the mental resources of anyone exposed to high school science. Besides, in order to rule out the "Truther" point of view, we don't even have to use physics. Common sense and Occam's Razor do the job handily. It is as close to impossible as you can possibly get in this world to come up with a team of a few hundred or so people evil enough and possessed of the requisite ninja mind-blanking skillz necessary to keep the fifty thousand or so people who worked in those towers from noticing that they were ripping cladding off girders and strapping thousands of charges and detonators to them over the course of weeks or months. Quote: You needn't do any of that. See above. Quote: Automatically? Of course not. Verify for yourself to the extent possible. That's what I have done. But don't try to tell me you give the same weight to some whacko's pet theory that you do to your own common sense, because you don't. There are people who are convinced the towers were brought down by top secret directed-energy weapons. I shit you not. Do you give the same weight to that possibility as you do to the possibility that hijacked planes brought them down? Of course you don't. Quote: Dead wrong, sonny. I'm an old fart in comparison to most of the younguns who post here. I am well aware that government officials can lie. I cut my political teeth on the Watergate hearings. I was glued to the screen for hours each day watching them. I heard Bill CLinton claiming he "never had sex with that woman", too. But the "theory" that Islamic nutjobs hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings isn't a government "theory" of what happened, it's what happened. And that's all that had to happen for the towers to collapse. They weren't made of freaking kryptonite or indestructabilium or something, after all. None of the engineers who wrote the NIST report expressed surprise the towers collapsed. Quite the reverse. Some of them say it's a testament to the quality of the construction done (over-engineered, the term is) that they lasted as long as they did. They would have expected them to collapse sooner than they actually did. The only predisposition I have is to use common sense coupled with a bit of followup research. Phred
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Pepe Silvia Registered: 05/18/03 Posts: 13,678 Last seen: 11 years, 6 months |
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Quote: The first wave of Anthrax letters that targeted news media and journalists were mailed 6 days after 9/11. Hardly enough time to start asking too many questions. -------------------- Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.
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Student of theIron Game Registered: 04/18/06 Posts: 2,231 Last seen: 10 years, 7 months |
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rofl TWO JUMBO JETS HIT THE TOWERS.
I WOULD THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME EXPLOSIONS....JUST MAYBE? ROFLS
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Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers Registered: 03/06/03 Posts: 21,287 Loc: The Ocean of Notions Last seen: 5 months, 23 days |
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Quote: -------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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