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Invisibleblkjkrabbit

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 4,971
Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7539952 - 10/20/07 04:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the way i see it, the administration is not credible whatsoever. they haven't earned my trust, and taking evidence that could prove their innocence doesn't help one bit. until they prove otherwise, yeah, i'll believe that they were responsible for the demolitions. their is nothing in our governments history that would suggest they have the interests of the people in mind. fuck this country once i'm ready i'm bouncing to europe

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Redstorm]
    #7539971 - 10/20/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
1. America isn't a fascist state and I find it likely you don't even know the definition of "fascism".

2. Show me some evidence that it was a missile. Simply saying that there's not enough evidence to prove it was a plane doesn't mean that a missile hit the Pentagon.




1: http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm

2: I didn't say a missile hit it. Please, if you're going to accuse me of saying something, make sure I said it. It could be implied but I never said "A missile hit the pentagon" (unless, for the sake of pedantry, you could a plane as being a missile, which I would agree with) As there's no meaningful footage of whatever hit it made public, I cannot say. I can speculate, but my speculation is not something I will divulge.


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7539975 - 10/20/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Lets say that building seven was badly damaged and the gasoline from the generators was the cause of the collapse. The damage would be sporadic and therefor the collapse would NOT be uniform. It would come down in sections, piece by piece, according to the damage done to the structures integrity. As you can see in the video of the building seven collapse that is not what happened. What happened was a uniform free fall collapse indicative of a controlled demolition (to blow the whole support structure simultaneously).

The facts that the 9/11 commission avoided this topic and how mass media networks poorly covered it also attest to the idea that this whole fiasco (the war, the Patriot Act, the control, etc.) went/goes down.

I'm not trying to say that people that disagree with me are ignorant of the facts, but in my perspective it is hard to argue with these and other fishy subjects (ie. why the tapes of all the Pentagon attacks were confiscated when none of the WTC attacks were).


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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: blkjkrabbit]
    #7539976 - 10/20/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blkjkrabbit said:
the way i see it, the administration is not credible whatsoever. they haven't earned my trust, and taking evidence that could prove their innocence doesn't help one bit. until they prove otherwise, yeah, i'll believe that they were responsible for the demolitions. their is nothing in our governments history that would suggest they have the interests of the people in mind. fuck this country once i'm ready i'm bouncing to europe




Sorry bud, the tyranny we have had here is even older and more prevalent, it's just more subtle*

*sometimes.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: blkjkrabbit]
    #7540077 - 10/20/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blkjkrabbit said:
the way i see it, the administration is not credible whatsoever. they haven't earned my trust, and taking evidence that could prove their innocence doesn't help one bit. until they prove otherwise, yeah, i'll believe that they were responsible for the demolitions. their is nothing in our governments history that would suggest they have the interests of the people in mind. fuck this country once i'm ready i'm bouncing to europe




Don't let the door hit you on the way out.... but the boobytrap that impails you up the ass, make sure to trip that.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: d33p]
    #7540369 - 10/20/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

lets say the building was badly damaged and they decided to demo it to save lives...why wouldn't they report that?? Because they were hiding something. You can't have 2+ pages full of coincidences....like how our gov just happened to have every fighter jet that could have shot down them planes half way across the map, what about our anti air guns?? oh thats right they just happened to be disabled to right? Line after line its just more and more bullshit how do people not see that?

and yes theirs alot of conspiracy theorys out their and they don't all make sense, but the fucking story in the papers don't make sense!!! Were all tinfoil hats because non of use have the facts!! And who's hiding them facts?? the fucking gov. WHY!! because they are guilty of SOMETHING!

as for the planes flying into the building, its not really a question of if they flew into it, its a question who/what was flying it...this question comes up after seeing all the bogus stuff that surrounds it.

we see how screwed the minds in power are in relation to drugs, health care, all of that bullshit...how to we all the sudden think they didn't screw us on 9/11 too for their money?


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

Edited by makaveli8x8 (10/20/07 06:47 PM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7540465 - 10/20/07 07:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm




What a crock of shit. Almost all of those things can be construed to be part of any government in the history of mankind.

Also, I guess you didn't say a missile hit it. In that case, if wasn't a plane or a missile, what was it? A meteor?

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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7540488 - 10/20/07 07:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

"Screw you" on 9/11?

How did you get screwed? You're alive. And if the government WAS actually smart enough to orchestrate the entire ordeal, something they have shown no signs of being even remotely capable of, how does the truth campaign plan on stopping them? I just saw a fucking banner in a laundromat that said that this government "planned" 9/11 to fuel their neocon agenda of making the US, Canada, and Mexio into one country. That kind of retarded drivel helps nothing, nor does it make sense. Truth ralliers hang out at places like HempFest, where no one gets anything done because they're there to buy homer bongs.

Those reasons, among more, are why I will never take the Truth campaign seriously. If conspiracy theorists could actually make a point worth a dime, I might listen.

What Phred said is some of the only logical thinking I've read in this whole thread.


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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: lukeboots]
    #7540548 - 10/20/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Personally, I have no clue what happened. Why?

1. I wasn't there.
2. I didn't personally collect any evidence supporting any particular theory
3. Since I wasn't involved in this in any way, nor did I collect any evidence personally, I can't make a determination one way or another.

In short, I trust no one. Everyone is a liar, even if they believe what they are saying. While the physics arguments are kind of convincing, I must admit I am not formally trained in physics and therefore cannot allow myself to make a decision when I am totally uninformed.

Some items of importance from 9/11
1. It galvanized fundamentalists
2. It allowed the government to cut domestic spending and pour all of our money into foreign engagements
3. People are obviously SO distrustful of the American government that they are not willing to believe a word anyone says.

Basically, our perceptions are reality. There's no way anyone here can say FOR SURE what happened, because no one was involved at every level and no one collected evidence in person. There really aren't a lot of unbiased reports on the topic. All we can do now is act on the consequences of what has happened, which I propose to be the following:

1. We need to take power back from the executive
2. We either need to draft people (I am opposed) or go home (I am unopposed, I like the people I know in the military and I don't want to see them go to war. Again. For like, the millionth time.)
3. We have to realize that our foreign policy actions bite us in the ass twenty years later, and stop being relentlessly stupid. That means no war on Iran. Making war recruits terrorists. So we should stop that.

Any way you cut it, it's in the past. We must deal with the ECHOES of the past, not the past itself. This is the essential premise of major historical event analysis.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WScott]
    #7540558 - 10/20/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

WScottsdale said:
Lets say that building seven was badly damaged and the gasoline from the generators was the cause of the collapse. The damage would be sporadic and therefor the collapse would NOT be uniform. It would come down in sections, piece by piece, according to the damage done to the structures integrity. As you can see in the video of the building seven collapse that is not what happened. What happened was a uniform free fall collapse indicative of a controlled demolition (to blow the whole support structure simultaneously).

The facts that the 9/11 commission avoided this topic and how mass media networks poorly covered it also attest to the idea that this whole fiasco (the war, the Patriot Act, the control, etc.) went/goes down.

I'm not trying to say that people that disagree with me are ignorant of the facts, but in my perspective it is hard to argue with these and  other fishy subjects (ie. why the tapes of all the Pentagon attacks were confiscated when none of the WTC attacks were).




:thumbup:

Why hide stuff unless you have something to hide?

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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7540562 - 10/20/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: lukeboots]
    #7540623 - 10/20/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

johnny wax- so you havn't seen the videos about the usa,canada,mexico merger?? I have my opinions on that too but just curious if you just seen that flier in the landermat and thought (thats crazy)...or did you actually google it after you seen it??


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #7540633 - 10/20/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I've only seen the flier (flyer?).



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funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #7540743 - 10/20/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nero did allow Rome to Burn, so he could blame the Xtians.

The Boston Tea Party was staged by the British, and Franklin worked both sides.

Hitler burned the Reichstag, and blamed it on the Communists.

Roosevelt had the Radar at Pearl Harbor shut down for "repairs" when he knew Japan was gearing up for attack.

History repeats itself folks...

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Middleman]
    #7540788 - 10/20/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Unfortunately there is no evidential basis for it. It is pure speculation which collapses under scrutiny and common sense.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7540832 - 10/20/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

kriminalelement writes:

Quote:

1. I wasn't there.
2. I didn't personally collect any evidence supporting any particular theory
3. Since I wasn't involved in this in any way, nor did I collect any evidence personally, I can't make a determination one way or another.




You can say that about pretty much everything in life. Do you have an opinion on whether or not men walked on the moon in the late Sixties and early Seventies? How about the invasion of Normandy in 1944? No opinion on that one way or the other?

Quote:

Some items of importance from 9/11
1. It galvanized fundamentalists
2. It allowed the government to cut domestic spending and pour all of our money into foreign engagements
3. People are obviously SO distrustful of the American government that they are not willing to believe a word anyone says.




Umm... no. Domestic spending hasn't been cut since September 11, 2001. Quite the reverse, in fact. It has increased far too much since then.

Quote:

Basically, our perceptions are reality.




Ummm... no. Reality is reality, whether you perceive it accurately or inaccurately. Reality is sublimely indifferent to your perception of it -- whether that perception be accurate or faulty.

Quote:

1. We need to take power back from the executive




You mean SEIZE power from the Executive. That would require a major reworking of the most fundamental tenets of the US Constitution. Good luck with that.

Quote:

Making war recruits terrorists.




That is not impossible, but it is certainly not a given. What is not known (and is innately unknowable) is whether the act of killing off terrorists results in more n00b terrorists being recruited than veteran terrorists killed. My take on it (which I freely admit cannot be proven correct) is it doesn't.

But none of the above points have anything to do with whether or not Islamic fanatic nutjobs brought down the towers and fucked up the Pentagon. You seem to think it doesn't matter whether it was Jihadis or your own government -- the lessons we should take away from it are the same either way. That -- to put it as gently as I possibly can -- is incorrect. It makes all the difference in the world.




Phred


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Middleman] * 1
    #7540858 - 10/20/07 09:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Nero did allow Rome to Burn, so he could blame the Xtians.

The Boston Tea Party was staged by the British, and Franklin worked both sides.

Hitler burned the Reichstag, and blamed it on the Communists.

Roosevelt had the Radar at Pearl Harbor shut down for "repairs" when he knew Japan was gearing up for attack.

History repeats itself folks...




The Boston Tea Party was in no way, shape, or form perpetrated by the British.

Those Jap planes were picked up on radar, but it was assumed they were a group of replacement planes expected in from the West Coast. The stupidity involved was that the Jap planes were coming from the total opposite direction.

But hey, you got two out of four.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7541139 - 10/20/07 11:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You can say that about pretty much everything in life. Do you have an opinion on whether or not men walked on the moon in the late Sixties and early Seventies? How about the invasion of Normandy in 1944? No opinion on that one way or the other?




Can't ever say for sure. However, those events had historical aftermaths that have been documented by primary sources, just like 9/11. I'm not saying anything didn't HAPPEN, I'm just saying I don't know all the details. It is important to deal with the aftermath of events, just as it is important to deal with how those events happened.

Quote:

Ummm... no. Reality is reality, whether you perceive it accurately or inaccurately. Reality is sublimely indifferent to your perception of it -- whether that perception be accurate or faulty.




This is completely true. I totally agree with you 100%. Sadly, people do not operate under those conditions. They accept their PERCEPTION of reality, and act on it, as though it was reality.

Ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land"? There are people in this novel that will only accept as truth what they see for themselves. This prevents them from making judgments about reality by inference. Most people can't do this. I can't do this, but I make an attempt. It is very sad that many people act on perceptions instead of objective truth. So you and I are completely simpatico about that. Reality is reality. Period. Just like genetically, race doesn't exist. But in REALITY, people are racist and the issue of race permeates society. It's an interesting paradox.

Quote:

You seem to think it doesn't matter whether it was Jihadis or your own government -- the lessons we should take away from it are the same either way. That -- to put it as gently as I possibly can -- is incorrect. It makes all the difference in the world.





Props to you. Again, I totally agree. IT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD. And the evidence that maybe the government was in on it.... is out there, but not yet verifiable. I certainly don't accept the government's version, but since I can't adequately explain it to myself in a way I am confident is TRUTHFUL, a way that WOULDN'T be substituting reality for my own perception, I'm not going to foist my opinions on other people or myself at this juncture. Maybe in the future things will become clearer to me, but I am very young and only beginning my journey into the realm of conspiracy theories.

The important thing to do is act on the reality that we are given now, because terrible, disastrous things are happening. That's all I'm saying. I think debate over the issue will continue, and I applaud that, I just think that there's too many diametrically opposed views held by armchair historians for me to believe anything solidly quite yet.

Incidentally, don't put words in my mouth. If the government (or whoever) was in on it they should have their dicks torn off and stuffed in their own mouths. (That was sort of a joke) But seriously, it's an issue. My point was for us to stop getting caught up in the minor details and look at the issue as a whole. I'm in school, and I notice a lot of people willing to debate this topic and pass out fliers, but none of them show up for political rallies or march against war, etc. I think we should be consciously trying to galvanize other people for productive action against things that are EMERGENT in nature.

I'm sorry if I seemed like I was disagreeing with what you've said. I think that what you're saying makes total sense. I was trying to add to the discussion and possibly broaden it, not refute any ideas that other people hold. I think that most of you hold those ideas for completely sound reasons, and I think your ideas made very much sense. You see, that's the problem. Your ideas sound logical, and so do other people's. But I'm no expert on the subject, so why should I believe one way or the other personally??? (Actually, what you said sounds especially logical, and thankyou for your efforts in debunkery, it's always nice to hear something besides what my fellow students are constantly trying in vain to brainwash me with)


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs

Edited by kriminalelement (10/20/07 11:49 PM)

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: kriminalelement]
    #7541189 - 10/20/07 11:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hell is made up of three types of people

1)captives
2)actors (who try and keep the captives from knowing they're in hell and they dole out the punishment)
3) those in charge


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Why can't all of the 9/11 conspiracies.... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #7541325 - 10/21/07 12:52 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Type 911 Protests and see what comes up. People wouldn't be banding together like they are if "it is only pure speculation that collapses under scrutiny and common sense". All over the world intelligent people are getting together and raising awareness about the lie thats been perpetrated by the government.


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