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Icelander
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Intuition is NOT truth.
#7535136 - 10/19/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Some here are claiming that their intuition tells them what the truth is and so they do not need fact or proof for their beliefs to be true.
But as someone looking rationally at it will soon observe that two separate people can have intuitive feelings about truth that are at total odds with each other.
Of course it's easy for the human ego to convince oneself that their intuition is superior or the real thing or that the other person isn't really in touch with their intuitive self. But once again the first party is telling you what "truth" is without having any concrete evidence.
Don't buy into this power play. Trust yourself, believe whatever you want, and remember that it's just your personal belief and has nothing to do with "truth" for anyone but you. (as far as you know or can prove) This is honesty and humility. Wonderful and rare traits in humanity. IMO it's good to cultivate them.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535158 - 10/19/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's interesting to try on different beliefs and then see how you start percieving people's posts or the people themselves on this forum. It's really trippy sometimes
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Icelander
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Well as far as Christianity goes I certainly have. I grew up fundamentalist. Dropped it and then picked it up again in my early 20s as a fundamentalist Jesus freak. I've taken a pretty good look and been a true believer.
But that is a good thing to do. It gives perspective and can show you how your beliefs are just personal preferences and mental creations based on fears and insecurities, and desires and wishes.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535189 - 10/19/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You obviously missed or forgot my thread a month or two back about the two-tiered intuition system.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535193 - 10/19/07 12:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Right. By no means does changing your belief system get you any closer to the truth. It's just something we do for various reasons, sometimes I do it just for fun.
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Icelander
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Refresh our memory.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535237 - 10/19/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is that you, Al? Try the Search Function.
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Veritas


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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Veritas]
#7535260 - 10/19/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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VEE to the rescue!
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palmersc
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535278 - 10/19/07 12:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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wow man. lets not have anybody question what is actually going on here.
submit to rationality. you see how closed and dead that is?
i think it is an interesting phenomena that we all have our own "truths." this idea that we are not brothers and sisters of common origin.
honesty and humility huh?
well if you love honesty, then you love truth. and since there are so many conflicting ideas here, there must be lies. who is lying here?
humility... but speak the truth boldly.
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Icelander
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: palmersc]
#7535312 - 10/19/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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People don't necessarily lie when they believe something incorrect is true. We all do this.
who is lying here?
Well since you are asking this question wanting an answer, I would say that you are. I hope this satisfies you.
I think we are all of common origin. I just don't believe in your ideas of what that common origin is and I am honest enough to admit that I don't know if what I believe is true and IMO you are not honest enough to admit to that. That's really the only difference here that I can see.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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palmersc
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535385 - 10/19/07 01:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: People don't necessarily lie when they believe something incorrect is true.
I agree.
So there must be a lot of confusion and falsehood if we cannot agree.
We are all learning. But where you get your information from is vital. The blind cannot lead the blind. There should be some commonality between our experiences and I am willing to go into further investigation and learn the tactics of deception.
So bear with me. Is there a real interest to find the truth or is it just to protect feeble personal viewpoints?
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535398 - 10/19/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Refresh our memory.
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: in 2012 we will confirm that we are living forever and we will resurrect all the creatures that have ever lived on the planet, their spirit will live within us. Also we will learn unassisted human flight.
Sometimes it's fun to be the flake in a board full of rationalists
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EternalCowabunga
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Good post, palmersc. Most of us are just trying to protect our viewpoints.. most of us are asleep at the wheel. And I am willingly speaking on behalf of most of this forum.
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Icelander
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: palmersc]
#7535419 - 10/19/07 01:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
palmersc said:
Quote:
Icelander said: People don't necessarily lie when they believe something incorrect is true.
I agree.
So there must be a lot of confusion and falsehood if we cannot agree.
We are all learning. But where you get your information from is vital. The blind cannot lead the blind. There should be some commonality between our experiences and I am willing to go into further investigation and learn the tactics of deception.
So bear with me. Is there a real interest to find the truth or is it just to protect feeble personal viewpoints?
The evidence that I am interested in truth is my willingness to admit that I might not know what the truth is. Now let me guess that you cannot do the same.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535446 - 10/19/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, that's not really the truth Icelander. That's your truth. The question is can there be a single Truth or are there infinite little truths. Castenada said that the only legit path is the path with heart - maybe this is what Christians (not crazy Christians) mean when they say the only way to live is through the Truth and the Light. It's not an intellectual knowledge but a way of being that can be communicated intelligibly.
I don't know, I like to try and resolve different view points into one cohesive idea, I could be talking out of my ass.
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EternalCowabunga
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I can often mistake the word Truth for Ultimate Knowledge. I think Truth is just another way of saying Guidance. Without our anscestors and the order of creation which has led us to be, there would be nothing but chaos. Truth could be an archetype that we hold on to because we fear Chaos. And rightly so, Order is more beautiful than Chaos.
Does Buddhism say anything about Order? Maybe that's the final transcendence, when we can detach ourselves from both order and chaos.
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Icelander
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I never said it wasn't my truth. In fact it is implied by my admission that I may not know what the "truth" is.
My point being that anyone who tells me that they want to "discover" truth and then tell me that they already know what it is are a liar and the truth is not in them.
Let me tell you something. In my personal experience almost all Christians turn out to be liars in this fashion. They pretend to be reasonable folk but are anything but. I am never fooled by them.
When you are talking to someone who has already decided what the truth is for themselves and for you then how is it possible to resolve ideas or find common ground?
When Christians say Truth and Light they mean only their version. If you believe as a Buddhist or Satanist or a Pagan then you are a sinner and live in darkness and that's about it. (exception being certain gnostic Christians)
Castaneda said that all that is important is a path with heart, that's correct. And he said each person determines for themselves what that is. Do you hear that coming from the Christians here? I don't think so.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535543 - 10/19/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree with you that most Christians are like that, and most people in general. I do believe however there are people who are on a genuinely mystical path, and who are always growing in their hearts and minds. These people are in alignment with some kind of Truth, I would imagine.
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Icelander
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I can often mistake the word Truth for Ultimate Knowledge. I think Truth is just another way of saying Guidance. Without our anscestors and the order of creation which has led us to be, there would be nothing but chaos. Truth could be an archetype that we hold on to because we fear Chaos. And rightly so, Order is more beautiful than Chaos.
Does Buddhism say anything about Order? Maybe that's the final transcendence, when we can detach ourselves from both order and chaos.
You're doing a lot of speculating here. I very much disagree that order is more beautiful than chaos. Why you think we like psychedelics? It gives a somewhat controllable glimpse into chaos. Order is easy for us to handle and so we call that beautiful maybe. But order comes from chaos. Tonal comes from Nagual. The tao of living comes from the Ultimate Tao.
Humanity is still lost in superstitious beliefs IMO and may always be. The honest and courageous person IMO rolls with this. They know they are making their best guess and for them that is a path with heart.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I agree with you that most Christians are like that, and most people in general. I do believe however there are people who are on a genuinely mystical path, and who are always growing in their hearts and minds. These people are in alignment with some kind of Truth, I would imagine.
Sure, I believe as you here. Those folk tell you their story but don't insist that you take it as truth or that your truth is not as valid. Those Gnostic Christians are fine folk and I don't have a problem with it. In fact I believe our core values are the same.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psyka
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7535624 - 10/19/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Buddhism has no concept of sin, but acknowledges that you are the owner of your actions.
EternalCowabunga: There are many perceptions of truth, which are all true relative to the perceiver. Because perception is subject to change, these truths, too, are subject to change and prone to affliction. However, there is such a thing as an ultimate truth. For example, all things are transient. That is true in all moments, and in all things. It is also true to understand that when we resist that fact (all is changing) we create a desire to hold on to something. Whether it be desire to hold on to our youth, hair, food, wealth, intelligence, resources, etc.... This is what is called craving. Craving leads to clinging. As there is nothing to actually hold on to, when whatever we have clung to disappears, dissatisfaction arises.
These truths can be seen here and now, and pervade in all moments.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: psyka]
#7535666 - 10/19/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Good post, I agree
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palmersc
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: psyka]
#7535705 - 10/19/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The truth is uncompromising. The truth will not bend. The truth will endure.
It will never fall away, and I can guarantee that if you don't cling to it with everything you have you will be swept away.
Just wandering and wondering without the knowledge of God's purpose.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: palmersc]
#7535734 - 10/19/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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This should like a such shitty threat. That's exactly why people become Christians in the first place, because they're afraid of having their little world shattered and then they fuck up with other people's minds. Comments like these have NOTHING to do with philosophy!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7535812 - 10/19/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's very difficult to know if we are really understanding each other when we make these posts. In my most awake times of life, it seemed like I was learning so many truths and then they'd become irrelevant by the end of the week and then I would realize the truths of the next week, or the next day, and it would just keep unfolding like that and it got to be very intense.
However, all the while this was happening I was aware of some kind of grounding which I was receiving these things from.. maybe it was intuition, maybe my mind was just very open, but it seemed like there was a source I was connected to which I now lack that connection. Now I mostly get by with my intellect and my reason but things are less psychedelic.. that's alright though, I guess things are "easier" this way.
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MushroomTrip
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It's not really that difficult. We all communicate on many layers in the same time and how much we understand is dependent on how aware we are at the given moment. However, Icelander said here something interesting about being able to being able where this Christian mentality comes from. It's not that hard. We all experienced moments when we behaved in a certain way and when we see it others and resembling so much to what we've been through, we are able to detect where these people are coming from. Which is fear.
Regarding intuition, I am not really sure that it holds any valid truth. This can easily explain why my intuition, with your intuition and someone else's intuition, when compared, never resemble and confusion, fights and wars arise.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7535937 - 10/19/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I always thought wars and confusion came from NOT being connected to your intuition. Am I mistaken?
I'd like to point out that intuition does not mean relying on your personal beliefs - the definition of intuition: direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension.
edit: explain to me what the Christian mentality is - there are many kinds of Christianity and none of the Christians i know hold any fundamentalist beliefs. i live in a very secular part of canada though so that could explain it
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Edited by EternalCowabunga (10/19/07 03:34 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Yes I understood what you meant. But in my opinion we can't live without reasoning. Intuition turns into ambiguity and new age crap when we try to make it something commonly used. Maybe it's because it's something unique which doesn't serve a social purpose or maybe it's only because it's just an illusion. People who feel a momentarily connection and then lose it but they don't want to admit. And then they try to hold on to that feeling which is highly addictive and pass it to many others up to the point where nobody knows what they are saying.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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palmersc
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Yeah man, I can relate to the intensity of the unfolding of truth. Ask me a 6 months ago what I would think about Jesus and you would find me in agreeance with most here. My old posts scare me now.
I'm not the type who is interested in a comfortable numb existence. People I know closely are very alienated by my change of heart.
I'll say that the unfolding does lead somewhere. God is not going to leave us stranded in confusion unless we like it that way. You will know once you find the truth, and maybe I'm here to steer somebody in the right direction. There were some people along my path which served as messengers. And I met many people who were coming to grips with the same things as me along the way.
I hear I don't have much tact.
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dorkus
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7536089 - 10/19/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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At work today I decided to make a post about intuition when I came home. I wanted to ask you guys what your thoughts were on intuition, and add a quote by Albert Einstein:
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."
If anything, intuition is letting chaos expand, rationality is putting things in order?
Edited by dorkus (10/19/07 04:19 PM)
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7536090 - 10/19/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Yes I understood what you meant. But in my opinion we can't live without reasoning. Intuition turns into ambiguity and new age crap when we try to make it something commonly used. Maybe it's because it's something unique which doesn't serve a social purpose or maybe it's only because it's just an illusion. People who feel a momentarily connection and then lose it but they don't want to admit. And then they try to hold on to that feeling which is highly addictive and pass it to many others up to the point where nobody knows what they are saying.
True enough. This is a good description of the messianic complex, which I guess is very well represented in the Christian fundamentalist mindset, from what I've heard. It's very disturbing to think that a whole subset of people are afflicted with this mindset in the U.S.
Would you be able to tell if someone was sharing their connected feeling out of love rather than fear though? Or are you of the belief that those who know don't speak. I guess what I mean is, can someone ever be justified in having a messianic mindset?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: palmersc]
#7536096 - 10/19/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Then leave us alone please with your truth
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
True enough. This is a good description of the messianic complex, which I guess is very well represented in the Christian fundamentalist mindset, from what I've heard. It's very disturbing to think that a whole subset of people are afflicted with this mindset in the U.S.
Would you be able to tell if someone was sharing their connected feeling out of love rather than fear though? Or are you of the belief that those who know don't speak.
I think I would be able to tell, but with the distinction of realizing that it would only be from my own perspective. While it could work perfectly fine for me and show all the signs of being valid, I would take to consideration that for somebody else it could be entirely different and still true... Of course, these are cases where one can logically explain where one is coming from, and this has nothing to do with intuition.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7536153 - 10/19/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ya, I see what you mean.
When people come on this board and talk about connection and loving everyone, it doesn't come across very well because that supposed connection has to be interpreted through the ego, unless one chose to feel the truth of those words and accepted it. As you said, it would come from your own perspective.
You could also look at the logical reason behind WHY they are saying that and simply come to an intellectual conclusion.
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palmersc
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I was on the ego dissolving bandwagon at one time. Trying to get rid of it or transcend it.
Trying to get rid of "me" to see the truth more clearly. What happened was I lost all sense of identity and became very confused.
I could not trust anybody. My family, my friends. "The CIA was after me." I was isolated and didn't know who I was anymore.
Then I realized I had to just be the man God created me to be. I didn't have to make up my place in existence. I had already been given a unique one.
This sums up where I am coming from:
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to hisfaith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: When people come on this board and talk about connection and loving everyone, it doesn't come across very well because that supposed connection has to be interpreted through the ego, unless one chose to feel the truth of those words and accepted it. As you said, it would come from your own perspective.
Love and connection cannot be evidenced in words, even though words can be a (limited) conduit for love and connection. Being that is shared cannot be substantiated, but it is known when it is experienced.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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I see the reason behind this, and this is exactly what we are commenting upon. What's the cause of all this, what effects it has on how we think and the decisions we make and what can be done to avoid confusion and improve our communication skills.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7536346 - 10/19/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Some here are claiming that their intuition tells them what the truth is and so they do not need fact or proof for their beliefs to be true.
I (for myself) consider intuition" as a "probationary truth".... Make a mental note when it happens, and investigate for soundness when I can....
Quote:
Icelander said: Trust yourself, believe whatever you want, and remember that it's just your personal belief and has nothing to do with "truth" for anyone but you. (as far as you know or can prove) This is honesty and humility. Wonderful and rare traits in humanity. IMO it's good to cultivate them.
This is pretty much how I try to live with my truths.... No one gets shut out or cut off, and no one's toes get stepped on, and I don't allow mine to be stepped on....
It all has to do with how the "truth" is presented.... There is aggressiveness, and posh-ness....
Also it is a good reminder that this forum is to discuss those personal truths with other people.... If you are posh here, you get no responses.... If you are aggressive, your ideas will be met with passionate opposition.... It seems to be the general nature of this board.... (no, I am not complaining - just noticing)
I didn't read thru this thread yet, so someone prolly~ already said all of this....! 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: palmersc]
#7539002 - 10/20/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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and maybe I'm here to steer somebody in the right direction.
How completely arrogant. Just like a politician who "knows" what's good for everybody else.
I cannot convey in adequate words how repulsive I find this kind of attitude. It is the very thing that brings humanity down and creates conflict and war.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7539014 - 10/20/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I cannot convey in adequate words how repulsive I find this kind of attitude.
Would you like some help? I could give you the correct words to say.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: palmersc]
#7539040 - 10/20/07 11:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I could not trust anybody. My family, my friends. "The CIA was after me." I was isolated and didn't know who I was anymore.
So it finally comes to light. This is the refuge of the Paranoid and
Delusional. The ones who can't handle the chaotic nature of existence and get a glimpse outside the cultural box and crumble. It's sad but not a rare occurrence. It's up to us as individuals to handle this thing called life. It is a challenge because it's not the fairy tale we were taught by the fear driven parental units that bore us. (mostly and not all). Falling back on a mythological father who can protect is the refuge of a broken mind and spirit.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Clean
the lense


Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Icelander]
#7539083 - 10/20/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Falling back on a mythological father who can protect is the refuge of a broken mind and spirit.
but...but..but.. The Constitution! Freedom! Liberty! Democracy! .......
ahh fuck it, i'm not fooling anyone. Time to admit that it's all been a hap-hazard attempt to glue ourselves back together.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Intuition is NOT truth. [Re: Clean]
#7539092 - 10/20/07 12:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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but...but..but.. The Constitution! Freedom! Liberty! Democracy!
AKA, Slavery
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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