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OfflineChristianTaylor5
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Temperature Question?
    #7532723 - 10/18/07 07:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I got a few 1lb bags of High Mountain Compost (HMC) colonizing in a closet right now. I spawned different bags at different times and noticed that they seem to colonize about half way very rapidly and then they seem to slow down.

Maybe I'm imagining it but I spawned a few and 3 days later they looked like they were doing pretty good, about 30%-40% colonized. That day I spawned another batch of bags. When I came back 2-3 days later the 2nd batch was looking good, about 35%-45% colonized. But the I didn't notice a difference in the 1st batch.

Normally this wouldn't bother me because we are talking about such short periods of time. But when I was examining the bags they seemed to be cool to the touch. The water that had precipitated on the inside walls of the bag seemed to be cold. From what I remember this is not consistent with previous runs.

I fear the closet is slightly too cold. Two of the walls in the closet are directly opposite from the outside and it gets a little cold around here this time of year. To solve this problem I bought a little space heater with a built in thermostat. My long winded and overly detailed explanation of the situation leads me to my very simple question...

What is the optimal temperature of a room in which you are colonizing compost?

I should also add that these bags are kinda crammed into cardboard boxes. But I cut a bunch of holes in them so FAE shouldn't be an issue. The only reason I added that detail is because of the close proximity of the bags to each other, but I don't see why that would create much of an issue. I made sure that the filter patches are not blocked by anything.

So there it is guys, my space heater goes from 60 to 80 degrees, so I'm sure that is sufficient for my purposes.

Later Guys,

-CT


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Offlineresptodd
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: ChristianTaylor5]
    #7532815 - 10/18/07 07:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

80 degrees, optimal temp is 86 but the colonizing spawn will generate a bit of heat on it's own. So 80 seems to be the magic number.


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Invisiblenw_shroomy
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: resptodd]
    #7532841 - 10/18/07 07:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ive been told to colonize cubensis at 75F to 80F


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Offlineacommunistspy
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Re: Temperature Question? *DELETED* [Re: nw_shroomy]
    #7532866 - 10/18/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by acommunistspy

Reason for deletion: this never happened



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OfflineChristianTaylor5
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: acommunistspy]
    #7533620 - 10/18/07 11:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Whoa, massage the bags? I have never heard of this before, how do you do it? Does it just work best at 30%-40% colonized, or does it only work at 30%-40%? Should I do this if they are above 30%-40% colonized? Like 45%-75%? That sounds amazing, I have never heard of this.

So 80 degrees is the temperature I should be aiming for? I thought temperatures this high were only for incubating pf/grain jars. I was under the impression that supplying temperatures this high when dealing with bulk substrates (i.e. hpoo, HMC, etc) will only encourage contaminant growth. Please tell me if I'm correct/incorrect in this understanding.

BTW... Nice "Never Ending Story" Flying Dog Deal Drawing.

Later,

-CT


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: ChristianTaylor5]
    #7533740 - 10/19/07 12:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Breaking it up just spreads the myc around faster.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: resptodd]
    #7533776 - 10/19/07 12:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

resptodd said:
80 degrees, optimal temp is 86 but the colonizing spawn will generate a bit of heat on it's own. So 80 seems to be the magic number.




86F is not optimal, no matter what. Mycelium growth in cubensis slows down at any temperature 83F and above. By 86, you're hurting the mushroom mycelium and stimulating thermophilic molds and bacteria. Normal room temperature works great for colonizing substrates, but at least try to keep it below 81F for best performance.
RR


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OfflineChristianTaylor5
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7533915 - 10/19/07 02:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a little confused, I'm supposed to completely break it up mid colonization? I understand the theory, its to re-disperse the mycelium evenly throughout the substrate so it has more points to grow from. However, I have been told before that this creates stress and the cons far outweigh the pros. When I heard massage I thought of caressing it with a little pressure, rather than breaking it apart. Could someone please clear up this issue for me?

Thanks for the temp info RR, perhaps you could shed some light on the other method in question. I was always told to leave it alone as to not create unnecessary stress, but the massaging comment caught my attention.

Thanks Guys,

-CT


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Invisibleorchidfanatic
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: ChristianTaylor5]
    #7534217 - 10/19/07 05:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

it takes a few days for the mycelium to recover but in the end it helps them along much faster by breaking up the mycelium and redistribute them in the bag .. I heard some where to roll the bag up past the filter patch from the top before you massage the bag this helps keep the bag sterile?
I guess to keep the filter patch from getting damaged or torn or stretched
good luck!


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: orchidfanatic]
    #7534303 - 10/19/07 06:49 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I have been told before that this creates stress and the cons far outweigh the pros.




You were told wrong. A good mixing of the material at 20% to 40% colonization will speed things up. They're usually fully colonized four to five days later. The only reason the mycelium wouldn't recover is if the uncolonzied grains are contaminated with bacteria or molds.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinesyntroniks
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7534552 - 10/19/07 09:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well if we would colonize at RT, then should the temperature be dropped even further for fruiting?

I heard from somewhere that colonize at 80-86 and

"A substrate jar should take 15 days to colonize if kept at 86 degrees, but will take 20 to 30 days if kept around 75 degrees"
"The closer they are kept to 86 degrees Fahrenheit, the better"

Those are from "Mushroom growing made easy on google video. I can see how anything in the mid 80s and up would promote bacterial growth, but the guy in the video goes on about dropping the temperature 10 degrees to fruit.


Now that RR says that will harm it, I an keep my stuff at 80 degrees no problem, but then I'd drop them to room temperature (about 68 low here) to fruit.


So I guess the real magic number is 80. 86 does seem high.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: syntroniks]
    #7534573 - 10/19/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The guy in the 'mushroom growing made easy' video also refers to trichoderma as green penicillium mold, and dozens of other blatant errors.

86F is too hot. That figure comes from an error in paul stamets TMC, which was corrected in later books. However, many growers only have TMC, thus refer to it as the bible, as if everything we've learned about mushroom growing since 1985 when artificial cultivation at home was in its infancy, is void.

Cubensis is a TROPICAL species that fruits in Texas and Florida in the friggen summer months for crying out loud. What's this crap about a temperature drop being required?? People really need to think these things through rather than blindly following. Temperature drops are required for cold weather, fall fruiting mushrooms, not tropical summer fruiting species. Why does this crap keep getting repeated ad nauseam? It defies common sense.
RR


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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7534726 - 10/19/07 10:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Probably because everyone recommends colonizing at 80f for fastest growth) and fruiting at 75f.

If there's no point of temp drop....then why do we drop the temps? Just because fruiting doesn't work as well at 80 as it does at 75, and colonization happens faster at 80?


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Offlinexaxphaanes
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: VisionsToReality]
    #7534779 - 10/19/07 10:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I cant tell a diff from 70-85 in fruiting temps usually my temps stay above 80's.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #7534792 - 10/19/07 10:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If there's no point of temp drop....then why do we drop the temps?




Speak for yourself. I don't drop temps unless growing shiitake, ps cyans, or some other cold weather fruiting mushroom.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #7534793 - 10/19/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yeah...my greenhouse is always in the high 80's but my spawn colonizes at room temp of 75-80, so temps actually go up when fruiting starts, with no ill effects.


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OfflineVisionsToReality
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7534797 - 10/19/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That's what I've most often read here. Colonize at 80, ideally, and fruit at 75. What do your temps stay at for both stages? Thanks


--------------------
Life is one big road with lots of signs,
So when you're ridin' through the ruts,
Don't you complicate your mind.

Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy
Don't bury your thoughts,
Put your vision to reality, yeah!


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: ChristianTaylor5]
    #7535609 - 10/19/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ChristianTaylor5 said:
What is the optimal temperature of a room in which you are colonizing compost?

-CT




I do all of my incubation in the 68-72(F) range for all of my work, ocassionally if the wife is out of town I'll turn the thermostat up to 77(F) - which is comfortable for *me* - but that's rarely while I have anything _in the works_ so my temps have been set by my wife.

And, coincidentally, if you're using large bulk substrate trays (or bags) that contain several or more quarts of substrate to be colonized - the mycelium will start to crank out a lot of heat internally and for that reason a lot of people are starting to find out that an ambient temperature of 72-74(F) is pretty darn ideal for them in that stage because it keeps them from overheating.

----
The condensation you're seeing in the bags is from the temperature differences on the two sides of the plastic, most likely because they are warmer than the ambient temps. That being said, they will always feel cool to the touch because anything colder than we are (say 78(F)) is going to feel cool to the touch.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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OfflineChristianTaylor5
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7536275 - 10/19/07 04:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks RR and Mycocurious.

So RR, if I go and check my bags today and they are above 40% colonized would it still be beneficial to break things up?

Take it easy guys,

-CT


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OfflineCaptainLinger
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: ChristianTaylor5]
    #7536336 - 10/19/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Of course; you're not triggering anything, just waiting until you get enough to spread around. The percentage is a very rough figure.


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OfflineChristianTaylor5
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: CaptainLinger]
    #7538365 - 10/20/07 06:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry guys I'm still a little confused.

Massage until I cant see any white, but don't smash?

When I spawn my cakes I break them up and mash them as much as possible. I don't want to do it the same when I re-break it?

I don't know If I'm using this word correctly but... When I'm massage it should I be trying to keep all hyphae intact? What I mean by that is should I be actively trying to keep mycelium connections intact?

Later,

-CT


Edited by ChristianTaylor5 (10/20/07 06:54 AM)


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: ChristianTaylor5]
    #7538457 - 10/20/07 07:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

During colonization it helps to break up the existing mini-colonies and redistribute them evenly across the entire container. To do this, you're going to use your hands to move the material around in the bag until it's all relatively evenly distributed. I think the "don't smash" imperative is just implying not to bash the bag against a 2"x4" (which is what you would do with a jar) to get the job done.

Use the bag as a guide, if you're damaging the bag to get the job done, you're being too rough. Otherwise, be as rough as you like, they won't mind. You'll do this one more time in about a week from now after it's about 70% colonized as well.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: mycocurious]
    #7538578 - 10/20/07 08:52 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

When I'm massage it should I be trying to keep all hyphae intact? What I mean by that is should I be actively trying to keep mycelium connections intact?






No. You want to break it up and mix it around. With grain jars, you bang the hell out of them against a tire to break them up. With bags, it's easier to use your fingers. Break up the chunks of colonized areas and mix them with the uncolonized areas. Simple.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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OfflineChristianTaylor5
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7538659 - 10/20/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Alright. I got it now. Thanks guys for clearing that up.

For the record, I use my hands to break up the cakes, I have never hit them with a 2' by 4' or drove over them or anything like that lol. Im just joking about the driving over them thing RR, I realize that isn't what you said.

I just poke each little broken piece with my thumbs through the bag very aggressively until everything is broken up into little tiny pieces. It takes a shit ton of time but I thought this is what you were supposed to do, I had never heard of these other, more aggressive sounding methods. I was thinking of using a meat grinder next time around, under very sterile conditions of course.

Take it easy guys, and thanks for all the great advice. If you guys got anything to say about the meat grinder idea then please do.

Later,

-CT


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: ChristianTaylor5]
    #7538670 - 10/20/07 09:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If you guys got anything to say about the meat grinder idea then please do.





Don't do it.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflineChristianTaylor5
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Re: Temperature Question? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7539139 - 10/20/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Alright.

Thanks a lot guys.

Take it easy.

-CT


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