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OfflineLocus
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Re: OBE [Re: Feanor]
    #7525567 - 10/16/07 09:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

absolutely. longbottom_leaf is right.


--------------------

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



~~~*Dosis sola facit venenum*~~~

*Check my profile to listen to my music* :smile:


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OfflineNobodhi
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Re: OBE [Re: Feanor]
    #7525573 - 10/16/07 09:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fuck the natural sciences, really. They are completely fallible, being entrenched with preconceived cultural notions and preposterous ideological fanaticism.

and unhealthy synthetic vitamins like Vitamin C extracted from corn sugar.

everyone trust the labs! they know all.


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Invisiblepong
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Re: OBE [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7526724 - 10/17/07 06:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Sorry to say, but there is no scientific evidence that OBE is real.

Maybe it's a matter of experience and opinion, but in my opinion, it is not real.

Since you use your eyes to see, you cannot have a different visual perspective than what info your eyes translate.

Not trying to be a dick, but I would guess your friend like to tell stories.

If OBE were real, they could be proven in a lab.




id love for them to prove that i am crazy in a lab as well.

muhahahhaa that would be pretty hard for them

but seriously how can you prove that somebody is dreaming in a lab. or if their viewpoint during the dream is at a place that is not their eyes but somewhere else.


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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: OBE [Re: pong]
    #7526753 - 10/17/07 06:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

OK I'm going to just save everyone a lot of time and state a few totally objective truths without having to back them up, mainly because i know them to be true and i really don't have time to say why in this particular post - But also because i repeat these things constantly on another OBE-based forum.

The OBE phenomenon is real.

OBEs have been witnessed and induced in 'the lab' for many many years now.

OBEs are not dreams, in most cases you are 100% awake when you have an OBE (well of a form of consciousness that certainly isn't 'asleep').

It is my personal belief that OBEs are a type of hallucination brought on by the interpretation of the brain of a wholesale lack of sensory input, particularly kinesthetics. Its no mistake that the Near-Death-Experience, anaesthesia, meditation and sensory deprivation all bring on similar experiences. The current scientific thought, however, seems to be following a neurological line, focusing on the parts of the brain that with stimulation seem to create OUT-OF-BODY and floating sensations.

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/127/2/243
(There's hundreds of studies, this is just one)

Whoever it was said that your eyes are the only things that can see doesn't take into account that the Occipital lobe is ultimately what determines what we 'see', not our eyes.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:


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Offlinenux
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Re: OBE [Re: undergrounder]
    #7526789 - 10/17/07 06:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

In my opinion, OBE = lucid dream
I haven't seen or read anything that can disprove it.


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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: OBE [Re: nux]
    #7526813 - 10/17/07 07:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nux said:
In my opinion, OBE = lucid dream
I haven't seen or read anything that can disprove it.




Well you have to actually be asleep to have a lucid dream.

Its not a case of 'OBEs are lucid dreams, prove me wrong', its a case of 'What are OBEs?' I don't know where you pulled lucid dreaming from. You might be confused because some people say they can achieve an OBE through a lucid dream, but never havign done this myself i can't comment on whether its possible.

But seriously how much have you 'seen/read'? Even wiki has enough info to show you they're completely different experiences.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:


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Offlinenux
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Re: OBE [Re: undergrounder]
    #7526861 - 10/17/07 08:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

From what i see in this wiki, you are not "awake" when you have an OBE. You are in kind of trance state similar to REM sleep. Well, in my opinion it IS REM sleep, just like when you are lucid dreaming.

I have had lucid dreams and a few OBEs and for me they are basically the same. The only difference is the way i entered this states.
But maybe the OBEs i had were not really OBEs...


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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: OBE [Re: nux]
    #7526930 - 10/17/07 08:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nux said:
From what i see in this wiki, you are not "awake" when you have an OBE. You are in kind of trance state similar to REM sleep. Well, in my opinion it IS REM sleep, just like when you are lucid dreaming.

I have had lucid dreams and a few OBEs and for me they are basically the same. The only difference is the way i entered this states.
But maybe the OBEs i had were not really OBEs...




First the trance state is nothing like REM sleep, the article actually only mentioned REM sleep once, certainly says nothing about it being and in fact it is entirely wrong about it. Theta waves, the type emitted during meditative and trance states are actually associated with Non-REM (Slow-wave) sleep, which is the state where dreams typically do NOT occur.

But to be honest no i don't think what you had were OBEs. Lucid dreams are completely different, they're like controllable movies that follow the script you tell them to follow. OBEs are as real as you are now sitting at the computer, seeing the computer screen, feeling the keyboard under your fingers, watching the seconds go by on the clock. Its like a second reality with scenes and objects materialising in front of your eyes that you can interract with full sensory feedback. There's no 'dreamy' quality to it at all, you're alert, lucid and aware. Its crystal clear and in real-time. If you're listening to music through headphones through your physical ears, you'll hear it while OOB, often overlayed with the hallucinations of the OBE.

The trance state is not sleep. If there's a noise in your room you will hear it, if something brushes against your leg you will feel it. You can open your eyes any time you want. It's commonly referred to as 'body asleep, mind awake'.

Being that psychedelic hallucinations are incredibly powerful experiences brought on simply by a change in the levels and actions of neurotransmitters and receptors in the brain, it can't be that hard to believe that equally submersive (or moreso) experiences can be induced naturally.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:


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Offlinenux
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Re: OBE [Re: undergrounder]
    #7527009 - 10/17/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:

First the trance state is nothing like REM sleep, the article actually only mentioned REM sleep once, certainly says nothing about it being and in fact it is entirely wrong about it. Theta waves, the type emitted during meditative and trance states are actually associated with Non-REM (Slow-wave) sleep, which is the state where dreams typically do NOT occur.





Slow-waves are delta waves (0.5-4 Hz) and not theta waves (4-7 Hz) which occur (but not only) during REM sleep.

see here, for instance.

Quote:


But to be honest no i don't think what you had were OBEs. Lucid dreams are completely different, they're like controllable movies that follow the script you tell them to follow. OBEs are as real as you are now sitting at the computer, seeing the computer screen, feeling the keyboard under your fingers, watching the seconds go by on the clock. Its like a second reality with scenes and objects materialising in front of your eyes that you can interract with full sensory feedback. There's no 'dreamy' quality to it at all, you're alert, lucid and aware. Its crystal clear and in real-time. If you're listening to music through headphones through your physical ears, you'll hear it while OOB, often overlayed with the hallucinations of the OBE.





I have no experience with headphone during lucid dreaming, but i can tell you that, in my experience, lucid dreams can feel as real as reality as you want it to be.

Quote:


The trance state is not sleep. If there's a noise in your room you will hear it, if something brushes against your leg you will feel it. You can open your eyes any time you want. It's commonly referred to as 'body asleep, mind awake'.





Once, i had a lucid dream where i was able to feel my real body at the same time as i was dreaming (i didn't last very long though).

For me, an OBE is just a lucid dream interpreted as an OBE, just like (IMO) Astral Projection is just a lucid dream interpreted as an Astral Projection.

In my opinion, the only way an OBE could be proved to be different than a lucid dream is if it was possible to see or move REAL objects (i mean objects from the real physical world) during an OBE. But if this was possible, it could be easily demonstrated...


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: OBE [Re: undergrounder]
    #7527091 - 10/17/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
OBEs have been witnessed and induced in 'the lab' for many many years now.



Here's an article that was posted a couple months ago about that:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7325801#7325801


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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: OBE [Re: nux]
    #7530309 - 10/18/07 07:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Slow-waves are delta waves (0.5-4 Hz) and not theta waves (4-7 Hz) which occur (but not only) during REM sleep.

see here, for instance.




Look i've spent the last year working on a research report into the relationship of memory and sleep and i have to deal with these definitions every day. I can see where you're getting confused:

1. NREM sleep is characterised by the initial appearance of THETA waves. NREM sleep as a whole is also commonly called 'Slow-wave sleep' in psychological papers and journals, particularly when used comparatively with REM sleep.

BUT

2. Commonly when dealing within NREM sleep itself, 'Slow-wave sleep' refers to the last and deepest stage of sleep, or even the last two stages, which are characterised by a rise in DELTA waves.

So again, meditation and the trance state have nothing to do with REM sleep, they are characterised by THETA WAVES, seen in NREM sleep. Lucid Dreaming occurs in REM sleep and is a completely different phenomenon

But also REM sleep has nothing to do with waves AT ALL unlike the four NREM stages. It's characterised by rapid-eye movements, vivid dreaming and a multitude of high frequency, low amplitude brain waves, of which most are primarily high-frequency BETA waves that resemble those of people when they are alert and awake. Theta waves are present but barely mentionable in comparison.

Anyway obviously we're not going to agree on OBEs and unless i had had them myself i'm sure i would be skeptical as well.

But a REALLY important point. When i talk about OBEs i'm talking about the OBE phenomenon itself. There's no doubting that they are 'real' and they are completely different to lucid dreaming, but i make no claim to believe that OBEs have ANY basis in reality. If i didn't say that (i thought i did) i should have. For instance in my opinion you can't go OOB, move an object or see the 'real' world at all for that matter. What you see seems to be real, but its just a reconstruction of what you expect to see or what your subconscious throws up for you. The experience is real, what you see might not be.

I wouldn't normally be bothered defending OBEs like this but i had one just last night for the first time in a little while and holy fuck they're real :yesnod:


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:


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Offlinenux
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Re: OBE [Re: undergrounder]
    #7530517 - 10/18/07 09:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:

Look i've spent the last year working on a research report into the relationship of memory and sleep and i have to deal with these definitions every day. I can see where you're getting confused:

(...)

So again, meditation and the trance state have nothing to do with REM sleep, they are characterised by THETA WAVES, seen in NREM sleep. Lucid Dreaming occurs in REM sleep and is a completely different phenomenon





Ok, you seem to know what you are talking about, so even if it contradicts what is written on the Wikipedia page, i can trust you and believe that there is no Theta waves during REM sleep.

I can even admit that OBE and lucid dreams are different. One is occuring during a trance state, and the other is occuring during REM sleep... How do i know in which state i was when i had my OBEs and when i had my lucid dreams ? I don't have a EEG device at home...

There is one thing that i know : it is that saying that they are "completely different phenomenon" is in contradiction with what i have experienced. From having experienced both phenomenon, i can tell you that, for me, they feel the same.

Maybe what i call an OBE is not an OBE, so let me describe my last OBE :

I was meditating in my bed quite early in the morning, and i start to hear a ring, then i felt a kind a vibration through all my body, and then suddenly i went out of my body and was in vertical position, floating in the air above my bed, in a room that looked exactly like my own room. Then i went outside (going through the window) and i was amazed how everything looked so real. There was some people in the street and i was having fun going through them without them noticing me.

If it is not an OBE, then what is an OBE ?


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Offlineundergrounder
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Re: OBE [Re: nux]
    #7530775 - 10/18/07 10:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yeh man that's a typical OBE, i don't get the vibrations and i find it hard to see a lot of the time but that's a very successful OBE as far as i can tell. To be finecky the only thing that's missing that i would call a major part of an OBE is the full tactile feedback. For example I remember steppign out of bed once while OOB and standing on a leather shoe that was on the floor. I could feel the leather under my foot and hear it squeak. I bent down and picked it up (i was blind at the time) and i could smell the leather. Of course in reality there was no shoe there, but for a random subconscious creation, if that's what it was it was perfectly real in every sense.

It's not a case of Theta -> OBE, REM -> LD, but for starters you would be best able to tell what state you were in by whether you were awake or not. If you're in a deep trance state, you're essentially awake. You might have an internal thought narration going on or you might be seeing a bunch of hypnagogic hallucinations. You have a conscious and real-time seat of thought but you feel disembodied and unsure of your physical environment. It's like there is blackness and thought and nothing else. From that state, you'd probably be able to initiate an OBE.

If you're asleep, you're asleep and a lucid dream would just appear out of nowhere, you would experience it, you would become aware that you were dreaming part-way through and you could direct the outcome of the dream from that point on. And although you feels somewhat real, it keeps that dreamy quality and you don't get that clarity and real-time awareness that characterises your life when you're awake. I think some 'astral travel', especially if its spontaneous and not induced, is some form of lucid dream although not all.

Having had one last night, i think the best way of summing it up is an OBE feels like being awake in every sense, you just get stunned by the reality of it. The only thing dream-like about it is the possibilities of what you can do and what you see.


--------------------
:igor: RIP :igor:

Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
:pinkshroom: :supershroom: :mushroom2: :shroomer: :mushroom2: :supershroom: :pinkshroom:


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Offline2859558484
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Re: OBE [Re: undergrounder]
    #7530940 - 10/18/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ive had a couple on drugs. They can be quite real


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: OBE [Re: 2859558484]
    #7530972 - 10/18/07 11:45 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Having had one last night, i think the best way of summing it up is an OBE feels like being awake in every sense, you just get stunned by the reality of it. The only thing dream-like about it is the possibilities of what you can do and what you see.




:yesnod: This is a good description.


--------------------


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: OBE [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7531129 - 10/18/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, touchy subject, I respect all your opinions really I do.

Hope I can have the experience you describe someday, sounds amazing.

It's just for me personally, I don't believe in magic, ghosts, spirits, psychics, etc...

James Randy offers 1 million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate ANYTHING supernatural.

Yes, I know, not all things are provable.

My basic logic is this, SIGHT comes from your EYES, which are fixed in your skull, and therefore unable to see anything but that which is in front of your skull.

I think you are confusing vision quests(REAL) with OBEs (NOT REAL)/

Again, just my opinion, no need to call me dirty names.

99% of the scientific community would agree with me.

I think it's hard to come to terms with a world without magic, that's why people like tripping I think, it makes magic seem real, but chemically, it is VERY explainable, tripping I mean.

And no, you are wrong sir, Tim Leary did in fact get his first dose from the CIA, look into it before you say WRONG.

The CIA was experimenting with LSD for mind control and truth serum type applications, so they offered free trips to ANYONE at the colleges who wanted to participate, Tim Leary was a young professor at the time.


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OfflinePhishe
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Re: OBE [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7531162 - 10/18/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
Sorry to say, but there is no scientific evidence that OBE is real.

Maybe it's a matter of experience and opinion, but in my opinion, it is not real.

Since you use your eyes to see, you cannot have a different visual perspective than what info your eyes translate.

Not trying to be a dick, but I would guess your friend like to tell stories.

If OBE were real, they could be proven in a lab.




Ever done ketamine?


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: OBE [Re: Phishe]
    #7531178 - 10/18/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No, wish I could, never seen Special K ever.

Are you saying I would change my mind if I could?

That would be the coolest thing ever, I would love to be proved wrong here!


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: OBE [Re: Phishe]
    #7531235 - 10/18/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phishe said:
Ever done ketamine?



For rizzle.


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Offlinenux
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Re: OBE [Re: undergrounder]
    #7531254 - 10/18/07 01:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

undergrounder said:
Yeh man that's a typical OBE, i don't get the vibrations and i find it hard to see a lot of the time but that's a very successful OBE as far as i can tell. To be finecky the only thing that's missing that i would call a major part of an OBE is the full tactile feedback.





It is true that in this particular OBE there was no tactile feedback, as i was able to go through everything i wanted. But this full tactile feedback is not OBE exclusive. Recently, i had sex during a lucid dream, and can tell you that the full tactile feedback was in action and very realistic :smile:

Quote:


If you're asleep, you're asleep and a lucid dream would just appear out of nowhere, you would experience it, you would become aware that you were dreaming part-way through and you could direct the outcome of the dream from that point on.





  This is one kind of lucid dream, called DILD (Dream-Initiated Lucid Dream). But there is another kind called WILD (Wake-Initiated Lucid Dream), where you go directly from a wake state to a lucid dreaming state. This WILDs are, in my case, quite often OBE (but not always). In my view, they are still lucid dreams... :wink:


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