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OfflineSeussA
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State versus fed law question
    #7523021 - 10/16/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I've asked a couple people about this and nobody seems to know for certain, so I thought I would ask here and see if anybody knows...

What would happen if a state passed a law making it illegal to enforce a federal law? For example, lets say state XYZ legalized cannabis and passed a state law making it a crime to arrest somebody for cannabis possession. Is this legal? What would happen?


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Seuss]
    #7523274 - 10/16/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

fed trumps state ipso facto.


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OfflineTaco Chef
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: afoaf]
    #7523305 - 10/16/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, that's right.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Taco Chef]
    #7523366 - 10/16/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

the constituion basically states that the states reserve the right to legislate anything that the feds haven't covered.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: BrAiN]
    #7523696 - 10/16/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That doesnt apply here.

The Feds HAVE said that marijuana, for example, is illegal.

Any State Law to the contrary is thus invalid.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7523772 - 10/16/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think the states could be forced to enforce the federal law and it would thus fall exclusively to federal law enforcement to prosecute the cases. Good fucking luck with that, federales.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Seuss]
    #7523796 - 10/16/07 03:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think it would be illegal, although I can't say for sure. I do know Federal laws supercedes state law in most cases.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7523800 - 10/16/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't think the states could be forced to enforce the federal law and it would thus fall exclusively to federal law enforcement to prosecute the cases. Good fucking luck with that, federales.




Exactly. That's why its always the army and the DEA raiding medicinal marijuana clinics and farms in Cali.

I mean.. it is a LITTLE useful for the states to pass laws saying medicinal marijuana is legal. At least it will get the local cops off your ass.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: BrAiN]
    #7523873 - 10/16/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

They wouldn't even have to pass a law declaring it legal, just rescind the laws making it illegal.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7523919 - 10/16/07 03:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Alaska and Nevada recently ALMOST passed referrendums decriminalizing pot... I think they both lost by maybe no more than 6% of the vote.

If they HAD passed.. wouldn't it be moot seeing as how there are Federal laws about pot?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: BrAiN]
    #7523952 - 10/16/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Somewhat, but it would really fuck the feds logistically. They don't have the manpower to bust pot heads. And decrim is not legalization.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7525829 - 10/16/07 10:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't think the states could be forced to enforce the federal law and it would thus fall exclusively to federal law enforcement to prosecute the cases. Good fucking luck with that, federales.




Zappa is right. The states exist atonomously. They are not required to do anything unless the law says so. The federal law doesn't require the state's to contribute to investigations into federal drug law, for example. Of course the police can choose to help the feds, but they are not forced to unless the law specifically says so (which would then be an issue of state's rights- which I don't think has specifically happened yet.)

The cali med marijuana case is just like this. The feds proseucte it, the states dont. The federal law, moreover, doesn't conflict with the state law just cuz it treats the substance differently.

Just cuz the feds follow different laws dosen't render the state law unenforcable. Its the same thing when the feds have different penalties for a substance. Just cuz california and the US have different penalties for say 1 gram of crack doesn't mean the laws conflict, as the federal law doesn't prohibit the states from taking action and enforcing their own law.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: johnm214]
    #7526665 - 10/17/07 04:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for helping with one part of the question. I still don't understand what would happen if a state made it illegal to enforce a federal law... imagine the situation where DEA agent John arrests pothead Sally in the state, when the state has a law making it illegal to arrest pothead Sally, thus breaking a state law by making an arrest. What would happen to DEA agent John in this case?


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Offlinerizingfire
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7526707 - 10/17/07 05:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
That doesnt apply here.

The Feds HAVE said that marijuana, for example, is illegal.

Any State Law to the contrary is thus invalid.




Um Alaska has legalized, not decriminalized marijuanna, so what happens in the case of the Feds saying it is illegal....ultimately state authorities are responsible for enforcement so if the state says it is ok then no one will be getting prosecuted. As you see in Alaska. They did drop the limit from being able to carry 2 oz down to one and you can grow 6 plants in your home.


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Offlinerizingfire
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Seuss]
    #7526806 - 10/17/07 07:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Thanks for helping with one part of the question. I still don't understand what would happen if a state made it illegal to enforce a federal law... imagine the situation where DEA agent John arrests pothead Sally in the state, when the state has a law making it illegal to arrest pothead Sally, thus breaking a state law by making an arrest. What would happen to DEA agent John in this case?




The fed wouldn't be doing anything wrong. He is enforcing a federal law. Just because the state says it isn't illegal doesn't mean you can avoid federal prosecution....but the chances of it happening are slim to none. There would have to be a law forbiding prosecution in the matter for the Fed to be in violation and since no such law exists...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: rizingfire]
    #7526830 - 10/17/07 07:31 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> Just because the state says it isn't illegal

No... I am trying to figure out what happens if a state passes a law that says it is illegal for a federal agent to arrest a citizen of the state for violation of a specific federal crime in that state. Ignore the drug aspect of the question; I was using it as an example only. I'm trying to figure out how much power the states have over the fed, if any.

If a state passes a law that makes it illegal for somebody at the federal level to enforce a federal law within the state, would the state be able to prosecute the federal agent for breaking the state law when making an arrest within the state?


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Seuss]
    #7526913 - 10/17/07 08:34 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Thanks for helping with one part of the question. I still don't understand what would happen if a state made it illegal to enforce a federal law... imagine the situation where DEA agent John arrests pothead Sally in the state, when the state has a law making it illegal to arrest pothead Sally, thus breaking a state law by making an arrest. What would happen to DEA agent John in this case?




Absolutely nothing, however he may be able to sued under state legislation, however federal law always superscedes state law, I believe this officially started by Andrew Jackson who dismissed state laws considering Native americans and escalated through out the american civil war.


Edited by The_Red_Crayon (10/17/07 08:38 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Seuss]
    #7526925 - 10/17/07 08:39 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If the state specifically made the actions of a federal agent illegal (or a particular action of anyone illegal who the feds then participated in) the law would be unenforcable as pertaining to the federal agent, presuming he was acting in the scope of his duties, defined by federal law.

In a situation such as you put forth, assuming the congress had the authority to pass such a law giving the federal agent authority to take an act in violation of the state law, the states could not do anything about it. If they tried, the matter could be removed to the federal courts under the "federal question" removal criteria. This is just a situation where the laws conflict, so the feds prevail- presuming the law is valid. The feds, however; can't make the states assist in the prosecution.

This is similar to the school integration crisis in the south. The state's forbade integrated schools; the federal law (thorough the fourteenth amendment and case law) mandated it. The federal agents came in and forced the integration (in violation of several states laws, in some cases, walking right through the governor/attorney general of the states physically on the scene). If the states tried to take action, the matter would have been removed to the federal courts and dismissed..


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: johnm214]
    #7527121 - 10/17/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

In a situation such as you put forth, assuming the congress had the authority to pass such a law giving the federal agent authority to take an act in violation of the state law, the states could not do anything about it. If they tried, the matter could be removed to the federal courts under the "federal question" removal criteria. This is just a situation where the laws conflict, so the feds prevail- presuming the law is valid. The feds, however; can't make the states assist in the prosecution.




Thank you.  I think this answers my question.  :smile:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: State versus fed law question [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7527319 - 10/17/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
That doesnt apply here.

The Feds HAVE said that marijuana, for example, is illegal.

Any State Law to the contrary is thus invalid.




Not really, the state law just provides protection against state actors. The federal law guides the feds. Just cuz their's different criteria doesn't mean the law is invalid. WHile a defendant couldn't use the legality under california law to thwart fed. prosecution, just as you can't use federal legality to thwart state prosecution, the fact that the state and feds have different standards doesn't nullify the state law- as it isn't applicable to the feds anyway.

Just as state law provides different offense levels and penalties than federal law, the laws are not void as they conflict- the states are allowed to handle their prosecutions (or lack thereof) as they wish- just cuz the feds are not bound by them doesn't mean the law is void.


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