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Offlineevolprim
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religion limits scienctific progress
    #7522961 - 10/16/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

ok i am not making this a theological or a what is truth debate. but i think it is fucked up that because the majority and the people in power are right wing chrisitans, science has to suffer its progress, such as stem cells.

just ranting


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: evolprim]
    #7522973 - 10/16/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You could take religion completely out of the equation and people would still be morally opposed to stem cell research and abortion.


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7522989 - 10/16/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

you think so? what would be someones moral dilemma with stem cell research?

i kinda understand abortion, but not really it seems that one of the arguments for that is the soul is put in at conception, and you cant kill it. from a biological standpoint it is essentially a clump of cells until late 2nd early 3rd trimester.


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: evolprim]
    #7523001 - 10/16/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, without religion there would still be people who feel it's a life from conception.

As for stem cell research, it's the same thing. People also have a problem with it being a road to reproductive cloning.


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7523012 - 10/16/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

im sure there are people like that , but it seems that a majority of these standpoints stem from religion.


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: evolprim]
    #7523016 - 10/16/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

But who is to say people wouldn't have these views sans religion?


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OfflineSyle
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: evolprim]
    #7523019 - 10/16/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

isn't this a moot debate? didn't they discover a way to do stem cell research without jeapordizing fetuses?


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: Syle]
    #7523033 - 10/16/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No, stem cell research uses embryos, not fetuses.


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: Syle]
    #7523054 - 10/16/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i see what you are saying jewunit. and yes it is a moot debate, but it just seems like we could go farther scientifically if we didnt have to always find someway to work around religious opposition.


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OfflineSyle
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: evolprim]
    #7523067 - 10/16/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

evolprim said:
i see what you are saying jewunit. and yes it is a moot debate, but it just seems like we could go farther scientifically if we didnt have to always find someway to work around religious opposition.




but shouldn't the voice of american christians be held just as equal as the rest of non christian americans? we are all citizens and have a right to voice our opinion.

maybe the answer is not letting government control this research? then there wouldn't be this issue. if it were all done privately, the consequences and risks would be at the hands of the individuals privately pursuing it...?


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: Syle]
    #7523079 - 10/16/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

exactly. everyone should have the right to an opinion and belief, but science should be allowed to do its own thing


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: Syle]
    #7523081 - 10/16/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You're right. But private funding in research usually involves bringing a product to market, with the result being profit. It rarely involves the search for knowledge for its own sake.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineSyle
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: badchad]
    #7523086 - 10/16/07 01:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
You're right. But private funding in research usually involves bringing a product to market, with the result being profit. It rarely involves the search for knowledge for its own sake.




well, that is a problem/risk of capitalism then isn't it? has nothing to do with religion vs science.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: Syle]
    #7523094 - 10/16/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think it confounds the problem because you are not only taking into the morality of these types of research, but also putting a price tag on it.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: badchad]
    #7523096 - 10/16/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
You're right. But private funding in research usually involves bringing a product to market, with the result being profit. It rarely involves the search for knowledge for its own sake.




If the end result of research isn't for a good or product, what's the point anyway?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7523101 - 10/16/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The point is that gaining knowledge is good, and advances mankind.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: badchad]
    #7523104 - 10/16/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Give me an example of research where the end result wasn't a good or service and advanced man kind.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7523123 - 10/16/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

How about studies of the origin of the Universe? Studies of hallucinogens give us insight into our own spirituality and how the brain works.

Few have resulted and been translated into "products", rather they provide us with information about our surroundings, where we came from etc.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: badchad]
    #7523127 - 10/16/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, two more questions.
Have we reached the end of those studies?
Secondly, who conducts that research?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7523153 - 10/16/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No. We have not reached the end, and I think it is a stretch to say we will ever specifically understand the origin of the Universe, or the underlying biological basis for spirituality and religion.

These types of studies are funded by the U.S. government and performed by academic Universities.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: badchad]
    #7523161 - 10/16/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So you're telling me MAPS is a US funded organization with the studies conducted by universities?


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7523204 - 10/16/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No.

I believe MAPS is a private organization. They usually sponsor studies carried out by Universities.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblejewunit
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: badchad]
    #7523224 - 10/16/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

My point is there are plenty of private organizations that will carry out research without putting out a product. Universities do it all the time. There's a difference between being funded by the US government and having the US government do the research. If you want to study something to US government won't fund, there are other ways to do it (non-profit organizations.)


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7523265 - 10/16/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I agree.

But the tremendous costs that are incurred by research usually prevent private organizations from being effective. If you were government funded, a university researcher would receive (literally) millions of dollars to carry out research.

If you look at MAPS they typically will give 50k or so to do research. It's hardly a comparison, but yes, its possible.

As it relates to the thread title, this why government bias (religious or otherwise) can severely hamper research efforts.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlineevolprim
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: badchad]
    #7525076 - 10/16/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i believe that research can be carried out for it's own purposes and possibly for a new product. the research of darwin for instance on the galapagos islands, brought forth the evolutionary theory. this was research carried out for the pure pursuit of knowledge which increased our knowledge of the world around us. this research also has practical applications, we can look at the microbial level and see that viruses mutate and become stronger when we are given antibiotics, this hopefully can lead to products to either stop stronger mutations or kill off the virus before it has a chance to mutate. (just an example) but the point im trying to make is research doesnt have to be just for a practical purpose, or for a product, and that sometimes even in not trying to find a product we find something amazing.

the main point however isnt this. it is that orthodox religions which have a huge influence on the political system limit the amount of progress we as a species can make scientifically.


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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: religion limits scienctific progress [Re: jewunit]
    #7525109 - 10/16/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Just for fun, you guys talking about embryonic stem cells like they're the only type. There are also adult stem cells which can also be used to repair tissue. I thought you might like to know.


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