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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinevaportrail
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I this I that
    #7517624 - 10/14/07 09:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If you saw Jason on the street, he wouldn't stand apart from the crowd. He would walk with a tall posture, smile at the pretty girls, dig for change in one pocket, stop to tie his shoe. You may never notice him, he's just too good at blending in. His clothing doesn't define him. When he looks in a mirror he likes what he sees. If you looked in his eyes you would see an iris and a pupil, if you were rather fond of him you might notice how they reflect light in a delicate way. When the wind blows his hair will do what it likes. When it rains he won't run for cover right away. When the sun is shining he will be too.

When I feed my ego, something a little different happens. I disconnect myself from everything around me. There is no longer us, there is me here and you over there. When I walk I'm never tall enough, I'm never good enough for that pretty girl, I can't even find a dollar in my pocket, and I need to tie my shoe. Why don't you notice me? Why do I feel invisible? I'm too dynamic for these plain clothes. If you make eye contact I'll look away quickly, you overwhelm me. I'm amazed by you. Why can't I be like you? When the wind blows my hair is ruined. When it rains my hair is ruined. When the sun is shining, I'm not in it.

Why are we pushed towards a mindset that perpetuates disappointment at every turn? It has occurred that these thoughts are not only selfish, but extremely debilitating as well. One finds himself smoking a cigarette at the doorstep asking, "What is wrong with me?" or "Why am I so stupid?" Where does this 'me' attitude come from, and why is it being cultivated in our society? In every advertisement, there it is!

Think of the phrase "I love you." Is it not hilariously ironic that this message is focused on the sender and not the receiver? Would the message not be eternally more profound if spoken from a self-less point of view? One could say I love you, I hate you, the focus is still on themselves. Likewise, if one said I love cheese, the focus is not on cheese but on me. The message is my relationship with cheese by my terms, not cheese's.

Now if one said "Cheese is delicious." The focus is now just cheese. It's obvious that I love it, but from a self-less approach. It has also evolved into an opinion.

If I said "I love cheese." and you replied, "Cheese is terrible." you have implied that I must also be terrible. I have set myself up to receive what could be taken as a personal attack. Is this the cause of hesitation when an opinion is requested? Are we fearful of things being taken too personally? Is this why anecdotes like this one arise? "Opinions are like asses, everyone has one, and they're all full of shit."

So how does one convey love selflessly? Is this the meaning of true empathy? Why would anyone want to hear "I love you." when it is such a misdirected statement? It pains me so much to see the women in my life being marched around by selfishness and vanity!


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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Offlineboxcarguy07
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7517650 - 10/14/07 09:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I see where you're coming from but I really don't think anyone, at least most people, think of it like that. You can twist most anything around to make it say what you want it to say.

Saying "I love you" is not selfish. It's just easier than saying "You are loved by me." Someone who gets told "I love you" is not going to think "What a selfish prick!" about the person who says it.

Love is, or at least should be, the epitome of selflessness. If women in your life are getting marched around by selfishness and vanity (I'm assuming by being told that they are loved) it is because they are not being loved, it's not because of the way it is being told to them.


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:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


:psychsplit:"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
            -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:psychsplit:


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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: I this I that [Re: boxcarguy07]
    #7517970 - 10/14/07 11:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"I love you" and "You are loved by me" mean the same thing. The focus is still on the I and the me, which is selfish by definition of the word is it not? The presence of the word I makes the statement selfish, as it is attributed to the self, the first person, which takes priority over you, the second person.

Quote:

Someone who gets told "I love you" is not going to think "What a selfish prick!" about the person who says it.



When hearing "I love you." that is exactly what goes through my head! Can it not be "we are in love." where "We" has taken priority over I? That sounds like real love.

These women are marched around by vanity because they are told they are too fat and too ugly to be loved. "I look like shit" "Do I look fat in this?" This is what is painful to watch. A good way to reach out to somebody is to reciprocate their feelings, and it doesn't seem like the greatest solution to reciprocate the very thing that is destroying them, by focusing on the I this, I that. When you say I love you, are you not encouraging this selfish attitude at the same time you are pulling them in?


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7518034 - 10/14/07 11:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vaportrail said:
"I love you" and "You are loved by me" mean the same thing. The focus is still on the I and the me, which is selfish by definition of the word is it not? The presence of the word I makes the statement selfish, as it is attributed to the self, the first person, which takes priority over you, the second person.

Quote:

Someone who gets told "I love you" is not going to think "What a selfish prick!" about the person who says it.



When hearing "I love you." that is exactly what goes through my head! Can it not be "we are in love." where "We" has taken priority over I? That sounds like real love.

These women are marched around by vanity because they are told they are too fat and too ugly to be loved. "I look like shit" "Do I look fat in this?" This is what is painful to watch. A good way to reach out to somebody is to reciprocate their feelings, and it doesn't seem like the greatest solution to reciprocate the very thing that is destroying them, by focusing on the I this, I that. When you say I love you, are you not encouraging this selfish attitude at the same time you are pulling them in?




are you sure you aren't putting words in someone's mouth by saying "we are in love."?

not only that...i think that statement is worse than "i love you" (i don't like that one either though).
with the "we are in love" statement you are almost subconsciously commanding the other person to love you whether it should or shouldn't be reciprocated.

it's strange how much our language influences everything in our lives...from how healthy relationships are...to your positive or negative outlook on life or wellbeing. there is probably a lot of unconscious stuff happening that we are completely unaware of.


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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: I this I that [Re: TameMe]
    #7518541 - 10/15/07 07:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

there is probably a lot of unconscious stuff happening that we are completely unaware of.




You're helping me work through those gaps. :grin: "We are in love." agreed by both parties, not as a command upon the other person.  You might have parents who do this, they are speaking for themselves(with any topic) but I is replaced by we automatically.

Here is my observation, which I had tried to convey in the first two paragraphs of the original post.  There are generally two types of people - those who are most often focused on the you, and those who are most often focused on the me. One of them is an absolute pleasure to keep company with, while the other is abrasive and annoying.

You can choose to be either of these people, when one is not focusing on the I, they are expressing selflessness. When one is chronically stuck on the I, they don't seem to fair so well, they have high expectations, and are generally moody and false.


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7518917 - 10/15/07 10:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

My love is (there) for you :wink:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: I this I that [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7519139 - 10/15/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Semantics as delicious.


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7520029 - 10/15/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We can better express love by taking ourselves out of the equation. You are a thoughtful person. You wrote a very thoughtful post. A desire to understand love is a very attractive quality. What is the chance a person will reject such statements? Even if the statement is unflattering, what is the chance it will be rejected if it is true? Much less so than if the statement is false. A flattering statement will also be rejected if it is false, even if the person's outward expression accepts it in some way. We are all full of various qualities at various times. Let others know you notice what they are full of. :grin:

I love you, I hate you. They are just extremes that ignore part of the picture. It is fluff. People want to be noticed. It's self oriented as you say, but what isn't? The fault is the boring lack of detail.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: I this I that [Re: Rahz]
    #7520269 - 10/15/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

My love is (there) for you



This one turns love into a separate entity.. existing apart from yourself..and implies that it's not governed by you or within your control, excellent! :grin:

Quote:

Semantics as delicious.



Sir you have teached me a new word :crazy:

Quote:

Let others know you notice what they are full of.



Haha! That could get me in trouble!  But it is a great saying to live by, brutal honesty is an admirable quality, don't you think?

Do you think you could go an entire day without saying I or me?  Wouldn't you have such a great day? That plan failed miserably today, resorted to speaking in 3rd person, which just annoyed everyone at work.


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7520360 - 10/15/07 05:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vaportrail said:
"We are in love." agreed by both parties, not as a command upon the other person.





How do you come to the conclusion that 'we are in love'? I am gonna go ahead and guess that two people exchange declarations or expressions of thier own personal love for the other and in doing so both realize it is mutual. 'I love you,' 'I love you too!' And both revel in thier reciprocated affection.

I don't see the problem in the term 'I.' After all, we don't experience the world in the 3rd person or in some kind of mass unified consciousness. We experience only ourselves and the effect we have on the world and others and thier effect upon us. We can observe and contemplate the other, but our experience of them is our own, private experience that cannot be shared, perhaps expressed or explained in very precise detail, but never more.

The only way to accurately represent anything is through the term "I," any attempt to represent "us" or "we" is fraught with distortion.

My favourite way to communicate is to own my ideas and feelings "I think, I feel...how do you think, feel?" Acknowledging one's radical subjectivity, and recognizing that others share the condition thus taking an active interest in deepening my appreciation and understanding of thier perspective... this is the way I like to approach relation.


Edited by NiamhNyx (10/15/07 05:48 PM)


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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: I this I that [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7520738 - 10/15/07 07:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The exchange of I love you's more often becomes the realization that you don't. How strange is that? Hmm no, it takes much more to conclude that "we are in love".

You sound like the type of person that I wouldn't get along with. We could be friends though!

vaportrail thinks he's so getting the hang of this. no wonder he bombed English...


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7520832 - 10/15/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The exchange of I love you's more often becomes the realization that you don't. How strange is that? Hmm no, it takes much more to conclude that "we are in love".




Yeah, so in reality the exchange of I love you's is often disingenuous. This is not a failing of the term 'I,' but rather a problem with people being dishonest with themselves or maybe being more in love with the idea of being in love than with the particular person... that is a giant can of worms that isn't relevant to the question of I. You could say 'we are in love' and have it be just as disingenuous. It's not so much the words that are relevant here. It just makes more sense to speak for oneself rather than making assumptions about another.

Quote:

You sound like the type of person that I wouldn't get along with. We could be friends though!




Ah, now you're speaking for me with this we. :smirk: This suggests an assumption regarding my feelings.

Better to say, I think we could be friends - then you are not assuming anything about how I feel but rather expressing your perception. I, then still autonomous, may say "yes! how I would love to be friends with you." Or, "are you really so sure about that? I don't think we connect at all."

Quote:


vaportrail thinks he's so getting the hang of this. no wonder he bombed English...




Speaking in the third person is just annoying. :smirk: It also doesn't solve your problem. It just makes you sound like you're trying to be a distant observer of the only thing you can ever be truly aware of - yourself.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7521128 - 10/15/07 09:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Brutal honesty is admiral. Some things are none of my business, but sometimes it's fun to get in trouble. Being a little crazy is good right?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: I this I that [Re: Rahz]
    #7522204 - 10/16/07 07:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You've made me see it as yet another balancing act.
Too much I and the relationship is superficial.
Too much we and one may start to feel overshadowed or squashed.

So then how to deal with somebody who is on either end of the spectrum, and how to deal with them pointing out where you are. This has devolved into a simple matter of negotiation. :crazy:


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7522365 - 10/16/07 09:12 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So how does one convey love selflessly?

Love IMO is a relaxed, serene merging with the energies (self, other, material manifestation) in our Universe. It is not personal as a possession but rather a letting go into or surrendering up.

Romantic "love" is self-absorbed, selfish and needing. It is not really love but rather attachment. This is a natural process for procreation of the species and not a negative thing, but neither is it love. Love may happen between two people in relationship but is rare, just as the experience of Love consciously is rare IMO. We are usually too self-absorbed and tense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/16/07 09:13 AM)


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: I this I that [Re: vaportrail]
    #7522464 - 10/16/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vaportrail said:
You've made me see it as yet another balancing act.
Too much I and the relationship is superficial.
Too much we and one may start to feel overshadowed or squashed.

So then how to deal with somebody who is on either end of the spectrum, and how to deal with them pointing out where you are. This has devolved into a simple matter of negotiation. :crazy:




Now you're on to something. :thumbup: There is a difference between recognizing one's own radical subjectivity and always owning 'I', and just being selfish and inconsiderate of the other. To me, relation is a negotiation, (but in no devolved sense.) I am I, you are you, what is your experience, what are your feelings? What are mine? How do they blend and interact? How do our energies, emotions, needs, dreams mingle?

If you forget yourself too much you're at risk of becoming one of those people who sacrafices everything to another to avoid loneliness because you're just not in touch with reality and with how you are being used. If you neglect to take an active interest in understanding the other, you risk becoming one of those selfish assholes who manipulates and uses others to fill gaps in themself.

I am I, but I am as concerned about your experience as my own. It is ok to be self-focused. Self focus does not have to preclude a deep care for others and a willingness to explore and negotiate the space between you. In fact, I believe a truly authentic self focus naturally opens into this sort of relation as relation is so basic a human drive. We are drawn to one another, we need one another. Only one who is capable of being honest with themselves is able to be honest with another, and to truly love.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: I this I that [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7522500 - 10/16/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Wise words, NN!  :smile:

Quote:

If you forget yourself too much you're at risk of becoming one of those people who sacrafices everything to another to avoid loneliness because you're just not in touch with reality and with how you are being used.




Isn't this selfish, as well?  IMO, we are always selfish.  The key is to develop mutually-beneficial selfish aims.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I this I that [Re: Veritas]
    #7522509 - 10/16/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Indeedie. That is what makes "successful" relationships. Compatible goals and lifestyles.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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