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Walter1496211
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Faith...
#7516944 - 10/14/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would like to propose something... faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if you have faith you hope for things which are not seen, which are true. I hear a lot of people asking others to prove to them things are true... Why??? Can you on the same hand prove it is not true... I think that if all things were before us then our lives would be mundane and pointless.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/14/07 06:23 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Thanks for those wise words. I don't think I have ever heard that here before.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Walter1496211
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-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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backfromthedead
Activated


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MushroomTrip
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Wait!  How do you know they are true. It is true that there are things which we can not see (for example atoms) but through special means they can be detected, and this way we know that they are true and that they exist. And also there are other things... such a god, angels and the crew , which can't be seen and their existence hasn't been proven. If I told you that there are pink elephants, would you put your faith in them? Why would you or wouldn't you do it? To which purpose does having faith serve for? Putting our hopes and expectations is something that is imaginary can never be a healthy attitude. When we have expectations we create a state of mind in which we become vulnerable and susceptible to suffering. I'll give you an example that I see most often. People putting their hopes on god. Thinking that if they pray and respect the religious dogma will get a special treatment and will be saved. And then a misfortune happens to them and instead of taking action themselves in solving it, they expect god to do it for them. Also they feel like they're being punished, that they're not good enough. This can't be the recipe to being happy. Everything turn into a blame game, where one has to be the bad character and the other the messenger of god. It's why there's so much confusion and hate. When we drop our expectations and take life as it is we don't feel like victims anymore. We don't feel guilty anymore. We simply live, trying to make the best of our experience. We choose honesty over delusion.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Walter1496211
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Faith isn't making decisions based on what others think. Rather its a reflection of one's inner being and a choice to be made. A path to follow. If you told me there were pink elephants indeed I would not put my faith in them but I would consider it.. Then after using my understanding I would decide that believing in pink elephants is of no worth to me. Faith is not something that you are given is something you give and hoping is not putting yourself in peril its taking a step forward.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
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P.S. Notice I have not mentioned religion or God at all only a principle. You brought them into the principle. Maybe a fight to suppress something is more powerful to some than believing to begin with.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Having faith is a valid choice, especially if one understands that faith is preference and not necessarily truth.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Walter1496211
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My faith is my truth. It only applies to me. Truth is something that can only be had by the one who chooses to believe it.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Then truth is relative and we agree.
I think faith is a good card to play once you have taken stock of things in the most logical manner possible. I don't like to use the concept of faith to lie to myself but to choose according to my innermost desires knowing that I am just choosing what I like.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Walter1496211
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My point has been made. "faith is a choice to believe not always a walk in the dark"
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Kinematics
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The way I put it as:
If you know, you know.
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Rahz
Alive Again


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>>>>I would like to propose something... faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if you have faith you hope for things which are not seen, which are true.
I agree. Faith is doubt.
Faith serves us well enough in the natural world. I think the mental function called faith is purely a result of living as an animal. It's a best guess, "best" being the one the animal decides has the best chance of insuring survival.
Imagine Bob is being chased by a tiger and comes to a ravine. Bob has never jumped that far before, can he make it? Perhaps not. It seems likely that he will plummet to his death. But he jumps anyway. To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger. To jump, it's likely that he will die, but having faith allows him to try to do something he wouldn't normally do. It takes faith because there is doubt. If Bob had encountered a vine, he wouldn't have experienced faith, he would have just climbed it, with zest.
Because faith is a natural function that serves to insure survival, people have a strong tendency to experience faith without consciously questioning it. Who wants to admit doubt? To admit doubt is to admit a likely demise, either at this moment, or at the time of death.
It all comes down to us being the good animals that we are. Neurosis and false belief isn't so important, only survival is important. If the world was not kind enough for humanity to exist here, we wouldn't have the luxury of neurosis. But life is hard, and we've adapted to it in ways that leave happiness, peace, and understanding in second place. In this regard, faith is an incredibly useful function that also causes incredible amounts of pain.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Icelander
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rahz]
#7517461 - 10/14/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That is a fucking great post.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Quote:
Icelander said: That is a fucking great post.
Indeed!
Without faith there would be no hope
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a_guy_named_ai
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Quote:
I would like to propose something... faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if you have faith you hope for things which are not seen, which are true. I hear a lot of people asking others to prove to them things are true... Why??? Can you on the same hand prove it is not true... I think that if all things were before us then our lives would be mundane and pointless.
Faith in God is the most perfect knowledge.Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Everything in the world is temporary, we know only in part; those things we can see and taste and touch. But those things which are spiritual, they are eternal. You can deny the Truth, but the Truth cannot deny himself.
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Visionary Tools



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Faith in the unknowable is a fools errand.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Knowable things, I know. I don't need faith for them. Or do you mean something like, faith in me seeing the sun rising again tomorrow ? But even that, one can't know with 100% certainty, of course. Maybe we should switch to a more probabilistic model.
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said: Faith in the unknowable is a fools errand.
I don't think you really read this thread at all.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I don't think you really read this thread at all.
Why, because he proposed an alternate viewpoint?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Walter1496211
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I was pointing out that in his response he said that faith in the unknowable is a fools errand in this thread that point was already made earlier and I explained earlier that I am not suggesting that anyone go out and have faith in something that is unknown. I am suggesting that faith is more of a choice to believe in something and support it in doing this it becomes something you know. This entire thread has nothing to do with believing in something you don't know..(even though the quote I posted talked about it) My post was merely an explanation that faith is a freedom of choice and a desire to obtain a truth that supports who you are or would like to be.. Religion aside I am speaking of a principle.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
jonathan_206 said: Faith in God is the most perfect knowledge.
Care to elaborate? I haven't read a more ambigious statement all week.
Quote:
Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
How is confidence or trust, or an assertion of the truth evidence of anything other than the fact that the individual chooses to believe, or have confidence in the truth of their assertion?
As far as I can tell, this statement in quotations is no different than the statement "G*d must exist because if G*d didn't exist, people wouldn't have conceived of the idea". Naturally, this statement is erroneous and does not reflect reality.
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Everything in the world is temporary, we know only in part; those things we can see and taste and touch.
Well, we can know more than that which we see and taste and touch, but the statement that we only know reality through the limited amount of information that our sensory devices produce through interacting with reality is an accurate one. The statement that everything in the world is impermanent seems to be mostly accurate, as well.
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But those things which are spiritual, they are eternal.
Which things are we referring to, exactly?
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You can deny the Truth, but the Truth cannot deny himself.
So, what do you refer to when you say "Truth"? The phenomenon of water traveling along the path of least resistance is truth, as far as our observation and understanding have determined.... so I guess your statement about how truth cannot deny "himself" (truth is a him? ) just doesn't make any sense to me. Elaboration, please?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Quote:
Visionary Tools said: Faith in the unknowable is a fools errand.
And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I don't think you really read this thread at all.
Why, because he proposed an alternate viewpoint?
And in support of his viewpoint I would propose my opion directly. I would believe more that "faith without investigation is a fools errand"
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I was pointing out that in his response he said that faith in the unknowable is a fools errand in this thread that point was already made earlier and I explained earlier that I am not suggesting that anyone go out and have faith in something that is unknown.
The fact that someone has already expressed a similar viewpoint, or the fact that you stated you were not suggesting that viewpoint, does not in any way bring the conclusion that someone who expresses their viewpoint on the topic in general didn't read the thread. What you are talking about doesn't mean others aren't free to present an alternate viewpoint on the matter.
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I am suggesting that faith is more of a choice to believe in something and support it in doing this it becomes something you know.
Yes, choosing to have faith means that one believes something, and believing in something subsequently implies that the individual has concluded that one knows that which is believed is true.
If that is the extent of what you are suggesting, then clearly there are no objections to it - that is the mechanics of faith/belief.
Of course, deciding that something is true doesn't actually make it true, unless the matter in question is a phenomenon that one's choice creates. Of course, in such a situation, it isn't true until it is made to be true, and simply having faith that it is doesn't actually make it true.
Quote:
My post was merely an explanation that faith is a freedom of choice and a desire to obtain a truth that supports who you are or would like to be..
Any examples come to mind? Learning a new language comes to mind... if one has faith that one knows a foreign language, without actually learning it, then having faith doesn't make it so that one knows a foreign language. Or are we referring to having faith that one has the ability to learn a foreign language? Simply having faith that one has the ability to learn a foreign language, doesn't make it so that one is capable.
Please help me better understand what type of matter we are speaking of, and why faith is necessary for an individual to make choices as to who they will be and how they will act.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with finding your own true meaning. Inner beliefs can have a huge impact on how we feel about life, and I think that as long as it does make one happy, a belief is not something detrimental. However, from your main post it is easily understandable that the reason you wanted to talk about the meaning of faith was because you heard a lot of people asking for proves:
Quote:
I hear a lot of people asking others to prove to them things are true... Why??? Can you on the same hand prove it is not true... I think that if all things were before us then our lives would be mundane and pointless.
When someone presents his beliefs, especially in a philosophical discussion, it is necessary to set things straight and find out of there's a logic regarding that belief. Because when one exposes his personal belief to a public, the risk is that others might adopt it as being true. And then that belief isn't personal anymore and that's how ambiguities start. Any "belief", if presented to a public has the potential of becoming a "religion". This is why we need to learn to discern the is from the is not, when the case requires.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
I'd be willing to wager that most people do not really hold a perspective that reflects the nature of reality, consciously existing immersed within the present moment and all. If they did, then they could not form a belief in something that is not presently experienced. Personally, I couldn't believe that a man named Pluto existed, although I could enertain a reasonable suspicion that it is so, but it doesn't matter if he did or not anyways.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Walter1496211
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I am talking about having faith in personal choices exactly as you say like going to college will help me to become more educated and in turn have a better job later. This is not always true(or lets take out truth for the sake of philosophy) and use fact. This is not a fact because lots of people go to college and don't make money at all. But when that person makes that choice to believe that going to college will benefit him he has "Chosen to have faith". You are correct that it will not make him better at going to college or make him perform better. But it will become a part of who he is.. And to make an example using words. If he had perfect faith he would never doubt his choice. If his faith was flawed he would regret making this choice especially when school became difficult (also taking into account this is an example and all humans are flawed and will doubt). I am suggesting that having perfect faith in times of doubt is something to strive for. And I am not speaking of inanimate objects I am speaking of choices and paths that we take. Making a choice based on "your belief system" is something that should be made with some type of understanding that what your doing is healthy somehow to your progression. I was not suggesting that the poster not post I was suggesting maybe read what was posted and make argument supporting his point.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Walter1496211 said: And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
I'd be willing to wager that most people do not really hold a perspective that reflects the nature of reality, consciously existing immersed within the present moment and all. If they did, then they could not form a belief in something that is not presently experienced. Personally, I couldn't believe that a man named Pluto existed, although I could enertain a reasonable suspicion that it is so, but it doesn't matter if he did or not anyways.
You speak for yourself. I was suggesting more hold a different opinion than you do. And no it doesn't matter if he did or did not exist it would matter how your belief in him effected your choices.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with finding your own true meaning. Inner beliefs can have a huge impact on how we feel about life, and I think that as long as it does make one happy, a belief is not something detrimental. However, from your main post it is easily understandable that the reason you wanted to talk about the meaning of faith was because you heard a lot of people asking for proves:
Quote:
I hear a lot of people asking others to prove to them things are true... Why??? Can you on the same hand prove it is not true... I think that if all things were before us then our lives would be mundane and pointless.
When someone presents his beliefs, especially in a philosophical discussion, it is necessary to set things straight and find out of there's a logic regarding that belief. Because when one exposes his personal belief to a public, the risk is that others might adopt it as being true. And then that belief isn't personal anymore and that's how ambiguities start. Any "belief", if presented to a public has the potential of becoming a "religion". This is why we need to learn to discern the is from the is not, when the case requires.
I completely agree with everything you said.. I am suggesting that when people ask for proof they are not trying to find out if its reallity or not. They are trying to take that reallity from someone who has chosen it. This might not be true at all but I was suggesting it. And I am a religious person but I was trying to reflect more on the principle of faith and how to many people rap it up and suggest it only has to do with believing in a higher being. It is not my attempt to make people believe or show them the light. It is my attempt to help them understand the power of believing in what "You want to". And how doing this can lead to happiness.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I am talking about having faith in personal choices exactly as you say like going to college will help me to become more educated and in turn have a better job later.
What, do you feel, is the difference between faith, and observation of the nature of reality? Anyone who observes reality is able to determine that successful completion of college may provide a means of being educated and produce opportunities for more exclusive jobs.
Quote:
But when that person makes that choice to believe that going to college will benefit him he has "Chosen to have faith".
Yes, choosing to have faith is choosing to have faith. What I am not grasping is why it is necessary or beneficial to have faith. To me, it seems counter-productive to one's ability to succesfully navigate reality, as one assumes an aspect of reality is known, when it is not. This clearly works agansit our ability to know reality directly, as it presents itself to be, and to act in the most effective response to the manner in which reality exists.
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But it will become a part of who he is..
What will become a part of who he is? The unsubstantiated belief?
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And to make an example using words. If he had perfect faith he would never doubt his choice.
So why is making a decision to never question one's decisions beneficial?
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If his faith was flawed he would regret making this choice especially when school became difficult (also taking into account this is an example and all humans are flawed and will doubt).
I don't understand how you have concluded that this hypothetical individual would react in such a manner. A reasonable individual could expect that pursuing such a path would not always be an easy pursuit. I simply do not comprehend how it follows that making a decision and then encountering difficulty in one's path automatically designates that one would doubt one's decision, or, if they did doubt their decision, why doubting it would be a disadvantage. Consciously exploring why one has presented themselves to be in such a situation, after all, can empower one to dedicate themselves to accomplishing that which is difficult.
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I am suggesting that having perfect faith in times of doubt is something to strive for.
I conclude that your suggestion is detrimental to the ability of an individual to understand and respond to reality.
Why is a time of doubt something to be avoided?
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Making a choice based on "your belief system" is something that should be made with some type of understanding that what your doing is healthy somehow to your progression.
That it is healthy, or that it could be? An individual that recognizes possibillities and explores them, as opposed to an individual that feels one possibility is most satisfying, and firmly believes that this possibility will be the outcome, is more capable of knowing reality for what it is, and thus more capable of acting in manners that will allow them to seize more preferable possibilities. 
Quote:
I was not suggesting that the poster not post I was suggesting maybe read what was posted and make argument supporting his point.
If this was the case, then requesting that an argument be supported before it is considered, instead of questioning whether or not they read the thread, is a more effective means of achieving that intention.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: You speak for yourself.
I am aware.
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I was suggesting more hold a different opinion than you do.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't understand what relevance it has. Does the idea that more individuals hold to a certain manner actually substantiate truth? I think not; to think so is fallacious.
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And no it doesn't matter if he did or did not exist it would matter how your belief in him effected your choices.
Holding a belief that reality does not support, regardless of how it affects your choices, is a detriment to one's ability to understand and know reality for how it is presents itself to be, and a hindrance to one's ability to navigate reality, to make the best choices possible, for the benefit of oneself and reality.
If believing that I was the second coming of Jesus made it easier for me to address large crowds, then clearly the belief affects my choice, yet clearly this doesn't speak for the idea that we should form stupid, unsubstantiated beliefs. I don't need to believe that in order to bring myself to be capable to address large crowds easier - reality as it is presented and unobstructedly observed provides the most effective path to changing myself and reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Walter1496211
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You have silenced me. I am not trying to convince anyone at all that what I am saying is fact I was suggesting my veiwpoint. And you have suggested yours. I am happy. And I know you are. Next time I will ask people to support their arguments. Humbly I respect your opinion. If you were here I would offer you a beer and a joint.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I am suggesting that when people ask for proof they are not trying to find out if its reallity or not. They are trying to take that reallity from someone who has chosen it.
How are you capable of discerning the intention others have when they question a presented perspective? 
"That reality"? There is only reality, and, of course, everyone's subsequent interpretation of reality. Proposing an alternate perspective of reality, or questioning the foundation of another's intrepation of reality, may or may not be an act of "taking reality away from someone".
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It is my attempt to help them understand the power of believing in what "You want to". And how doing this can lead to happiness.
Reminds me of a passage of Scripture....
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Matt. 7:24-7 said: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Clearly, Jesus' sayings in this example are analogous to that of reality as it exists. Those who base their perception of reality upon direct observation of the manners in which reality presents itself to be, and act and think in accordance with reality, are not susceptible to having reality tear down their state of being and their path.
The question is whether or not we form our interpretation of reality in "what we wish to be", or if our interpretation of reality is founded upon reality itself. Both are paths to happiness and quality of state of being, yet only one can weather the storm of reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Rose
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Faith is important. Although it seems you are arguing against that fact FG. Am I incorrect? Perhaps I misread.
Rahz is correct, faith is a largely drawn from our fight/flight instinct.
Faith + instinct = GOOD.
Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.
However, humans run into trouble when they think too much about personal faith and subject THEIR faith onto others.
Faith + imposition = bad
Faith does have value... and faith is real... but faith is personal and instinctual... otherwise it becomes a very bad, misleading thing.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (10/16/07 02:45 PM)
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Walter1496211
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I am suggesting that when people ask for proof they are not trying to find out if its reallity or not. They are trying to take that reallity from someone who has chosen it. This might not be true at all but I was suggesting it
That is what I said next time take the full quote.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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a_guy_named_ai
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Quote:
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jonathan_206 said: Faith in God is the most perfect knowledge.
Care to elaborate? I haven't read a more ambigious statement all week. 
Faith in God recognizes his eternal nature. That's what faith is, the evidence of things not seen. To recognise his eternal nature, it is totally conclusive.With the knowledge we have of the natural, we can only know some, but never totally.
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Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
How is confidence or trust, or an assertion of the truth evidence of anything other than the fact that the individual chooses to believe, or have confidence in the truth of their assertion?
We perceive Spiritual evidence with Spiritual perception. We can only perceive Spirit with spirit.
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Everything in the world is temporary, we know only in part; those things we can see and taste and touch.
Well, we can know more than that which we see and taste and touch, but the statement that we only know reality through the limited amount of information that our sensory devices produce through interacting with reality is an accurate one. The statement that everything in the world is impermanent seems to be mostly accurate, as well.
If you presuppose that we cannot perceive anything outside of the body, then you eliminate beforehand any opportunity to recognize that which is Spiritual.
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But those things which are spiritual, they are eternal.
Which things are we referring to, exactly? 
Love is eternal. God is Love.
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You can deny the Truth, but the Truth cannot deny himself.
So, what do you refer to when you say "Truth"? The phenomenon of water traveling along the path of least resistance is truth, as far as our observation and understanding have determined.... so I guess your statement about how truth cannot deny "himself" (truth is a him? ) just doesn't make any sense to me. Elaboration, please?
Truth is that which IS. god is the ultimate reality. Everything that does not abide in the Truth, abides in a void of darkness.
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13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Truth is light.
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1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
2 corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 corinthians 4
3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
1 John 1:6-8
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Ephesians 5
8For ye were at one time in darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine on you.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/16/07 02:53 PM)
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fireworks_god
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I quote that which I feel like responding to. I was not interested in discussing how you associate with the idea you put forth, but simply the idea itself, which is precisely why I quoted specifically what I quoted.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7523575 - 10/16/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Faith + instinct = GOOD.
Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.
Rahz's post was excellent, only that what he described is not faith. First let's see what faith means:
Quote:
faith (fāth) Pronunciation Key n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Now let's review Rahz's example:
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Imagine Bob is being chased by a tiger and comes to a ravine. Bob has never jumped that far before, can he make it? Perhaps not. It seems likely that he will plummet to his death. But he jumps anyway. To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger. To jump, it's likely that he will die, but having faith allows him to try to do something he wouldn't normally do. It takes faith because there is doubt. If Bob had encountered a vine, he wouldn't have experienced faith, he would have just climbed it, with zest.
Allow me to tell you that Bob's decision was not the product of faith, but of reason. The proof resides i n a few words from his own example: "To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger.". It can be called comparing the loss, or being able to determine which of those options were potentially more dangerous and which could become his way out of the misfortune that he was going through. In my book this is reasoning, not faith.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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Too many quotes to follow. Care to summarize?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7523596 - 10/16/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cervantes said: Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.
I do not comprehend how faith plays a role in the creation process. I play bass guitar all the time, produce all kinds of fun, original stuff out of the process of simply playing, and faith has never presented itself as playing a role in any way. Maybe I don't understand your definition of the term "faith".
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Rose
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
faith (fāth) Pronunciation Key n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Allow me to tell you that Bob's decision was not the product of faith, but of reason. The proof resides i n a few words from his own example: "To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger.". It can be called comparing the loss, or being able to determine which of those options were potentially more dangerous and which could become his way out of the misfortune that he was going through. In my book this is reasoning, not faith.
You're right about Rahz's example... I was focusing on the fact, "Bob" had not jumped that far before. This IS a leap of faith... without a theological context. YAY! I was so excited about that example, I wasn't too critical about the rest of the post.
Also, it was about time someone broke out the definition. I was starting to foam at the bit. Too many creative definitions in here. Theology is only a SMALL part of faith... yet it occupies too much of this discussion.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Walter1496211
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fireworks_god said: I quote that which I feel like responding to. I was not interested in discussing how you associate with the idea you put forth, but simply the idea itself, which is precisely why I quoted specifically what I quoted.
Very well.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
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One last point to make I cannot change anyones mind at all. But I am only really guessing here I could be wrong. But if I were to offer concrete proof that God and all that he represents as far as my understanding goes is fact. I would guess that even though you know for a fact now that it is true. You would still refuse to believe it. For the simple fact that it does not alighn to your principle of absolution. You would refuse to go to heavean becuase you don't believe in God.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/16/07 03:08 PM)
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Rose
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
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Cervantes said: Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.
I do not comprehend how faith plays a role in the creation process. I play bass guitar all the time, produce all kinds of fun, original stuff out of the process of simply playing, and faith has never presented itself as playing a role in any way. Maybe I don't understand your definition of the term "faith".
You don't?
I'm using the definition provided by MT. It doesn't become a theological definition until the LATER entries. I am focusing on the PRIMARY definitions. Notice TRUST is synonymous with many KEY aspects of faith. It is like the importance of definitions has been inverted in this thread. Theology is a small part of the nuanced word, "Faith."
Quote:
faith (fāth) Pronunciation Key n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Look, if a movie about transforming, robotic cars can become a hit, faith has to be involved.
Someone decided to make it a movie. They put their faith in the movie by funding it... before it existed.
Someone trusted they could write a script, then they wrote it. Before it was a script it was just creative conviction. It took faith to write it.
Then, someone (STEPHEN SPIELBERG) decided the WORST DIRECTOR IN THE WORLD should direct it; Michael Bay (Pearl Harbor). This was a HUGE ACT OF FAITH.
The movie was cast and shot. Actors used their faith to create a world which was not there. The best actors actually BELIEVED in the fictitious world of the film, to give realistic, emotional performances... in a ROBOT MOVIE!
Effects were added. Another example of financial faith, in something which did not yet exist... and creative faith... belief that robotic cars could look realistic enough to entertain and suspend disbelief. Also, the movie was FILMED BEFORE the effects were added. There was TRUST the added effects would match the work done in the film.
The movie is released. The audience pays to be entertained... putting their faith in the franchise, the studio and the director. They trust they'll have a good time.
The audience KNOWS the movie is NOT REAL, but they put their faith in the story and choose to believe in the world of the film. They use faith to be entertained. Eventually, they (well, most of 'em) become EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED in the FAKE story. They laugh, they gasp, they cheer. Then, the audience returns to their normal life, after the film ends.
The producers dreams finally come true. They make a fortune. They thank God for faith.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (10/16/07 04:27 PM)
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Rahz
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Well, It makes sense in my head
If the ravine had been 60 yards wide, Bob could have jumped, but for a different reason. If the ravine had been 8 feet wide, he would have jumped without faith, hoping the tiger would fall. The ravine was wide enough that he didn't know if he could make it because his mind could not confirm his success. His jump wasn't illogical, but it wasn't logical either.
A belief that a particular coin toss will be heads would be an example of misplaced-faith. If I had money on the toss, I would hope, or just desire. The difference is that it takes the possibility of me affecting the outcome for faith to happen, but either way, something is at stake, and the outcome is uncertain. Faith and doubt are un-logical, as opposed to illogical.
For this reason, having faith in God as a concept is like having faith in a coin toss. It is insane. God either exists or doesn't, I don't know which is it, and importaintly, I have no power to affect things one way or the other. How much faith will it take to make God and Heaven a reality? I would be better of with hope, except then I would be stuck with despair.
So why worry about something that is not provable one way or the other? It's never ending doubt. Without unprovable faith and doubt in the question of religion, there is no room for belief, which is the way it should be. Putting the need for an answer down, without tricking the mind, is the only logical (sane) thing to do.
For those worried about Bob, he did not make the jump and plummeted to his death. He did however make the longest jump he had ever made, and was quite impressed with himself as he was falling.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rahz]
#7525203 - 10/16/07 08:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dude
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7527213 - 10/17/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cervantes said: You don't?
Nope. The creation process simply is. Whether or not a human being chooses to have faith is not an aspect of the creation process.
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Look, if a movie about transforming, robotic cars can become a hit, faith has to be involved.
No it doesn't.
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Someone decided to make it a movie. They put their faith in the movie by funding it... before it existed.
Making a decision as to how one will invest one's funds is making a decision as to how one will invest one's funds. The decision-making process does not require, and is more effective without, an individual choosing to believe something as known when it is unknown. Choosing to believe that it is known doesn't make it come into being; making it come into being makes it come into being.
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Someone trusted they could write a script, then they wrote it.
I don't have to trust that I can breathe in order to breathe. You imply, correct me if I am wrong, that "faith" is a force that must exist before any action can be carried out by a human being, that is necessary for the action to be carried out. I disagree.
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It took faith to write it.
No, it took an idea of what is to be written, a decision to write, and the means by which something is written. Faith is not an aspect of the equation, and if an individual chooses to hold faith that they can write, or that their writing will be a success, or whatever faith you are referring to, it is still not within the equation - it is beyond the equation.
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Then, someone (STEPHEN SPIELBERG) decided the WORST DIRECTOR IN THE WORLD should direct it; Michael Bay (Pearl Harbor). This was a HUGE ACT OF FAITH.
No, it was a decision. Whether or not Senor Spielbergo had faith that his decision would be fruitful, this faith is not necessary for the decision-making process, which is what I have asserted, which is what you have subsequently disagreed with. I do not have to have conviction that my decision to put on my shoes will provide myself a favorable outcome in order for myself to decide to put my shoes on. I can contemplate realms of possibilities and act in accordance with what is.
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The movie was cast and shot. Actors used their faith to create a world which was not there. The best actors actually BELIEVED in the fictitious world of the film, to give realistic, emotional performances... in a ROBOT MOVIE!
You don't have to believe that a role is reality in order to successfully play the role. One simply plays the role.
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The movie is released. The audience pays to be entertained... putting their faith in the franchise, the studio and the director. They trust they'll have a good time.
This is getting ridiculous. An audience member can decide to view a movie without deciding to believe before hand that they will have a good time. What you are proposing is nonsense. Your assertion that they put their faith in the franchise, the studio, and the director belies the reasons that individuals make the decisions that they do. Perhaps an audience member has a friend that encouraged them to view the movie. Perhaps their friend has made suggestions before, they decided to take a chance, and they have observed that their friend typically makes suggestions that guides them into viewing a preferential movie.
Now, it is my turn to tell a story. This story rests upon the premise that nothing in reality is certain, coupled with the idea that, as such, the individual who holds a preconceived notion of the outcome of something that has not yet occured places themself in a state of disadvantage, regarding their ability to successfully navigate reality as it presents itself to be. One unassuming, unaccounted variable means the difference between life and death.
Actually, nevermind, I'm not going to tell a story, as I think I've conveyed, well enough, what I was seeking to convey. Note, not what I trusted I would convey.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: But if I were to offer concrete proof that God and all that he represents as far as my understanding goes is fact. I would guess that even though you know for a fact now that it is true. You would still refuse to believe it. For the simple fact that it does not alighn to your principle of absolution. You would refuse to go to heavean becuase you don't believe in God.
I don't comprehend what basis proposing this notion has other than to establish some form of dichotomy, or, perhaps, hierarchy, between viewpoints, or, rather, those who hold them. Speculating that, even if one were faced with presented, observable, verifiable truth, one would choose to be willfully ignorant isn't exactly discussing the philosophical/spiritual ideas for discussion.
At any rate, the notion is entirely baseless and unsubstantiated. I personally think it wasn't worth proposing, as it seems to be more concerned with alleged personality of other posters rather than ideaology. It doesn't seem to be in line with the intention of participation within this forum.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Rose
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Great... we ARE using different definitions. You are using your definition of, "Faith" and I am using the definition provided by the dictionary.
Good to know. There's no need to keep arguing with each other. We aren't even speaking the same language. If we can't agree on the meaning of a word, how can we discuss it?
Don't worry, there'll be other threads...
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


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Quote:
But if I were to offer concrete proof that God and all that he represents as far as my understanding goes is fact. I would guess that even though you know for a fact now that it is true. You would still refuse to believe it. For the simple fact that
K, when you have concrete proof, try it and see. Until then, this makes ZERO sense. A materialist would immediately respond to concrete proof, as their belief system is based upon empirical evidence. The utter lack of empirical evidence is what creates a more-than-reasonable doubt in the existence of God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and smart blondes.
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7529371 - 10/17/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hahahaha. Great post.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rahz]
#7529672 - 10/17/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Rahz said: Faith serves us well enough in the natural world. I think the mental function called faith is purely a result of living as an animal. It's a best guess, "best" being the one the animal decides has the best chance of insuring survival.
How does having faith, oh, let's say having faith that a family member is speaking the truth.... Nothing other than the notions in "faith", how does that do anything at all for insuring survival....?
Quote:
Rahz said: Imagine Bob is being chased by a tiger and comes to a ravine. Bob has never jumped that far before, can he make it? Perhaps not. It seems likely that he will plummet to his death. But he jumps anyway. To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger. To jump, it's likely that he will die, but having faith allows him to try to do something he wouldn't normally do. It takes faith because there is doubt. If Bob had encountered a vine, he wouldn't have experienced faith, he would have just climbed it, with zest.
In this example, I see that there is doubt in just standing there and surviving the situation, and faith in at least trying - as an alternate for standing there.... I didn't understand your notion of "faith=doubt" when you wrote it in another thread either.... Who says faith and doubt are so closely knit together as some kind of "law", like you are making them sound....? If you have faith in someone, or their character, you can have faith without doubt.... If you have doubt, it is because you don't have faith - or because you have been shown evidence to the contrary.... Does it make me a liar if I say that I have "faith", or "absolute faith", or that I "believe" in someone....?
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Rahz said: Because faith is a natural function that serves to insure survival, people have a strong tendency to experience faith without consciously questioning it.
If people don't consciously question faith, doesn't that mean that faith is not consciously doubted....? Or, are you trying to say that subconsciously, you believe that people doubt everything that they have faith in....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Walter1496211
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Faith to some. Is not knowledge and is intangible. I agree if we disagree on the definition there can be no argument.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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PhanTomCat
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Yeah, when I first read this thread the other night, I found Rahz's post near the top, disputed it, then read the rest of the thread - where he kind of already was fighting the same battle I presented.... 
But the context that he put "faith = doubt" seems wrong, and may be more appropriate to equate "hope = doubt".... Because if you are hoping for something, you have doubt as to whether or not what you are hoping for will come to be.... That's all....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Visionary Tools



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I am not suggesting that anyone go out and have faith in something that is unknown. I am suggesting that faith is more of a choice to believe in something and support it in doing this it becomes something you know.
So, if I believe in something enough, I can convince myself it's real. That's why faith is synonymous with delusion.
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Rose
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We've already discussed faith's synonyms. Delusion is not one of them.
Yes, a person's faith can be delusional... but not always.
I have faith in the theory of gravity. Is that delusional?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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No, faith is NOT a synonym of delusion
Quote:
Delusion something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs
Faith is simply belief in something for which there is no evidence.
Cervantes: gravity presents quite a bit of evidence--are you certain that you have faith, or do you have confidence?
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7536988 - 10/19/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Faith lacks logical proof or MATERIAL evidence.
To reply to your edit: You can have faith in something, even if there is evidence. Faith's definition has been posted several times in this thread.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537001 - 10/19/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Eh, same-same.
Quote:
Proof (relevant definition) the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
Quote:
Evidence something that furnishes proof.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537012 - 10/19/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Furnishing evidence and providing proof are TWO completely different beasts... otherwise gravity would not still be a theory.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537022 - 10/19/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, the difference is in the convincing.
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537028 - 10/19/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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No. The difference is in the PROOF.
AND the PROOF is in the pudding.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537042 - 10/19/07 08:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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But who judges the pudding? The pudding eater!
It's good to have you back, Cervantes.
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537056 - 10/19/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've missed our banter, V.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537069 - 10/19/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, it's fun to disagree with someone with whom you largely agree.
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537076 - 10/19/07 08:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Xzactly.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537090 - 10/19/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
But who judges the pudding? The pudding eater!
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537099 - 10/19/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
otherwise gravity would not still be a theory.
It's not--it's a law! (At least on this planet.)
The Difference Between a Theory and a Law
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537108 - 10/19/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Damnit! Can't you see? I wanted the last word on this matter. Couldn't we just leave it at pudding?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537115 - 10/19/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'll tell you what--show up at my house with chocolate tofu pudding in the next 30 minutes, and I'll let you have the last word.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537119 - 10/19/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Defy gravity - GO TO JAIL! It's the law.
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Veritas


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Ah-ha! That explains the crowded conditions in our nation's prisons.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537126 - 10/19/07 08:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: I'll tell you what--show up at my house with chocolate tofu pudding in the next 30 minutes, and I'll let you have the last word.
Temping, but I'm WAY further West than you. I'd never make it in time.
Aloha
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537135 - 10/19/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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West? I thought you were East...like off-Broadway? Did you go and get leid?
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537143 - 10/19/07 08:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yup, I moved.
I envy me.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537173 - 10/19/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Paradise, baby. Let me know when they start filming "Lost" again, K?
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537194 - 10/19/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Watch for me. You never know... I may be an Other.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537202 - 10/19/07 08:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ooooh, fake ripped and worn clothes and all, hmmm?
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Rose
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
#7537206 - 10/19/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I AM an actor... it is my favorite show... I'll do my durndest to be cast.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Veritas


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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537217 - 10/19/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Right on! I used to be an actor, too.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7537219 - 10/19/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am not an actor, but I do play one on TV.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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I was Brain #2 in the early Star Trek episode "The Gamesters of Triskelion".
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Rahz
Alive Again


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>>>>How does having faith, oh, let's say having faith that a family member is speaking the truth.... Nothing other than the notions in "faith", how does that do anything at all for insuring survival....?
Because it allow us to make decisions without having all the facts.
>>>>Who says faith and doubt are so closely knit together as some kind of "law", like you are making them sound....?
They are two sides of the same coin IMO. If a person knows something is true, they don't need faith to believe it is true. If a person is unsure, automatically, faith and doubt are created. They are choices which are constantly being made. A person may choose to follow their faith in something, but that does not mean the doubt is erased. Each time they affirm their faith, they are dealing with doubt.
>>>>Or, are you trying to say that subconsciously, you believe that people doubt everything that they have faith in....?
I doubt everything I have faith in. The only difference is that I don't mind doubt. If I seek to avoid doubt, I'm only placing it in the shadows, and I'm doing so out of fear. It's a good idea to question the beliefs I want to lean towards out of faith. The more sure I am something is true, the less faith -and- doubt I experience. The more sure I am something is false, the less faith and doubt I experience.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I am not an actor, but I do play one on TV.
That really made me laugh.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Faith... [Re: Rahz]
#7539068 - 10/20/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I doubt everything I have faith in. The only difference is that I don't mind doubt.
 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I am not an actor, but I do play one on TV.
That really made me laugh.
My work here is complete. One zillion posts and 8 years to get a belly laugh from you. Now I can move on with the next phase of my life's mission. Yay - I guess...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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The student has become the Master.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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And takes a pay cut.
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