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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
    #7523596 - 10/16/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.




I do not comprehend how faith plays a role in the creation process. I play bass guitar all the time, produce all kinds of fun, original stuff out of the process of simply playing, and faith has never presented itself as playing a role in any way. Maybe I don't understand your definition of the term "faith". :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Faith... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7523638 - 10/16/07 02:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:

Quote:

faith      (fāth)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

  1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
  2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
  3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
  4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
  5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
  6. A set of principles or beliefs.





Allow me to tell you that Bob's decision was not the product of faith, but of reason.
The proof resides i n a few words from his own example: "To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger.".
It can be called comparing the loss, or being able to determine which of those options were potentially more dangerous and which could become his way out of the misfortune that he was going through.
In my book this is reasoning, not faith. :shrug:




You're right about Rahz's example... I was focusing on the fact, "Bob" had not jumped that far before. This IS a leap of faith... without a theological context. YAY! I was so excited about that example, I wasn't too critical about the rest of the post.

Also, it was about time someone broke out the definition. I was starting to foam at the bit. Too many creative definitions in here. Theology is only a SMALL part of faith... yet it occupies too much of this discussion.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineWalter1496211
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Re: Faith... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7523645 - 10/16/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I quote that which I feel like responding to. :naughty: I was not interested in discussing how you associate with the idea you put forth, but simply the idea itself, which is precisely why I quoted specifically what I quoted. :shrug:




Very well. :wink:


--------------------
you see the world through the window of your experience


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OfflineWalter1496211
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Re: Faith... [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7523697 - 10/16/07 03:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

One last point to make I cannot change anyones mind at all.  But I am only really guessing here I could be wrong.  But if I were to offer concrete proof that God and all that he represents as far as my understanding goes is fact. I would guess that even though you know for a fact now that it is true.  You would still refuse to believe it. For the simple fact that it does not alighn to your principle of absolution.  You would refuse to go to heavean becuase you don't believe in God. :wink:


--------------------
you see the world through the window of your experience


Edited by Walter1496211 (10/16/07 03:08 PM)


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Faith... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7523778 - 10/16/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.




I do not comprehend how faith plays a role in the creation process. I play bass guitar all the time, produce all kinds of fun, original stuff out of the process of simply playing, and faith has never presented itself as playing a role in any way. Maybe I don't understand your definition of the term "faith". :shrug:




You don't?

I'm using the definition provided by MT. It doesn't become a theological definition until the LATER entries. I am focusing on the PRIMARY definitions. Notice TRUST is synonymous with many KEY aspects of faith. It is like the importance of definitions has been inverted in this thread. Theology is a small part of the nuanced word, "Faith."

Quote:

faith      (fāth)  Pronunciation Key
n. 

  1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
  2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
  3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
  4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
  5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
  6. A set of principles or beliefs.




Look,  if a movie about transforming, robotic cars can become a hit, faith has to be involved.

Someone decided to make it a movie. They put their faith in the movie by funding it... before it existed.

Someone trusted they could write a script, then they wrote it. Before it was a script it was just creative conviction. It took faith to write it.

Then, someone (STEPHEN SPIELBERG) decided the WORST DIRECTOR IN THE WORLD should direct it; Michael Bay (Pearl Harbor). This was a HUGE ACT OF FAITH.

The movie was cast and shot. Actors used their faith to create a world which was not there. The best actors actually BELIEVED in the fictitious world of the film, to give realistic, emotional performances... in a ROBOT MOVIE!

Effects were added. Another example of financial faith, in something which did not yet exist... and creative faith... belief that robotic cars could look realistic enough to entertain and suspend disbelief. Also, the movie was FILMED BEFORE the effects were added. There was TRUST the added effects would match the work done in the film.

The movie is released. The audience pays to be entertained... putting their faith in the franchise, the studio and the director. They trust they'll have a good time.

The audience KNOWS the movie is NOT REAL, but they put their faith in the story and choose to believe in the world of the film. They use faith to be entertained. Eventually, they (well, most of 'em) become EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED in the FAKE story. They laugh, they gasp, they cheer. Then, the audience returns to their normal life, after the film ends.

The producers dreams finally come true. They make a fortune. They thank God for faith.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (10/16/07 04:27 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Faith... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7525161 - 10/16/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, It makes sense in my head:gethigh:

If the ravine had been 60 yards wide, Bob could have jumped, but for a different reason. If the ravine had been 8 feet wide, he would have jumped without faith, hoping the tiger would fall. The ravine was wide enough that he didn't know if he could make it because his mind could not confirm his success. His jump wasn't illogical, but it wasn't logical either.

A belief that a particular coin toss will be heads would be an example of misplaced-faith. If I had money on the toss, I would hope, or just desire. The difference is that it takes the possibility of me affecting the outcome for faith to happen, but either way, something is at stake, and the outcome is uncertain. Faith and doubt are un-logical, as opposed to illogical.

For this reason, having faith in God as a concept is like having faith in a coin toss. It is insane. God either exists or doesn't, I don't know which is it, and importaintly, I have no power to affect things one way or the other. How much faith will it take to make God and Heaven a reality? I would be better of with hope, except then I would be stuck with despair.

So why worry about something that is not provable one way or the other? It's never ending doubt. Without unprovable faith and doubt in the question of religion, there is no room for belief, which is the way it should be. Putting the need for an answer down, without tricking the mind, is the only logical (sane) thing to do.

For those worried about Bob, he did not make the jump and plummeted to his death. He did however make the longest jump he had ever made, and was quite impressed with himself as he was falling.:tongue:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rahz]
    #7525203 - 10/16/07 08:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Dude :cool: :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
    #7527213 - 10/17/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
You don't?




Nope. The creation process simply is. Whether or not a human being chooses to have faith is not an aspect of the creation process.

Quote:


Look,  if a movie about transforming, robotic cars can become a hit, faith has to be involved.




No it doesn't.

Quote:


Someone decided to make it a movie. They put their faith in the movie by funding it... before it existed.




Making a decision as to how one will invest one's funds is making a decision as to how one will invest one's funds. The decision-making process does not require, and is more effective without, an individual choosing to believe something as known when it is unknown. Choosing to believe that it is known doesn't make it come into being; making it come into being makes it come into being. :wink:

Quote:


Someone trusted they could write a script, then they wrote it.




I don't have to trust that I can breathe in order to breathe. You imply, correct me if I am wrong, that "faith" is a force that must exist before any action can be carried out by a human being, that is necessary for the action to be carried out. I disagree.

Quote:


It took faith to write it.




No, it took an idea of what is to be written, a decision to write, and the means by which something is written. Faith is not an aspect of the equation, and if an individual chooses to hold faith that they can write, or that their writing will be a success, or whatever faith you are referring to, it is still not within the equation - it is beyond the equation.

Quote:


Then, someone (STEPHEN SPIELBERG) decided the WORST DIRECTOR IN THE WORLD should direct it; Michael Bay (Pearl Harbor). This was a HUGE ACT OF FAITH.




No, it was a decision. Whether or not Senor Spielbergo had faith that his decision would be fruitful, this faith is not necessary for the decision-making process, which is what I have asserted, which is what you have subsequently disagreed with. I do not have to have conviction that my decision to put on my shoes will provide myself a favorable outcome in order for myself to decide to put my shoes on. I can contemplate realms of possibilities and act in accordance with what is.

Quote:


The movie was cast and shot. Actors used their faith to create a world which was not there. The best actors actually BELIEVED in the fictitious world of the film, to give realistic, emotional performances... in a ROBOT MOVIE!




You don't have to believe that a role is reality in order to successfully play the role. One simply plays the role. :sorry: 

Quote:


The movie is released. The audience pays to be entertained... putting their faith in the franchise, the studio and the director. They trust they'll have a good time.




This is getting ridiculous. An audience member can decide to view a movie without deciding to believe before hand that they will have a good time. What you are proposing is nonsense. Your assertion that they put their faith in the franchise, the studio, and the director belies the reasons that individuals make the decisions that they do. Perhaps an audience member has a friend that encouraged them to view the movie. Perhaps their friend has made suggestions before, they decided to take a chance, and they have observed that their friend typically makes suggestions that guides them into viewing a preferential movie.


Now, it is my turn to tell a story. This story rests upon the premise that nothing in reality is certain, coupled with the idea that, as such, the individual who holds a preconceived notion of the outcome of something that has not yet occured places themself in a state of disadvantage, regarding their ability to successfully navigate reality as it presents itself to be. One unassuming, unaccounted variable means the difference between life and death.

Actually, nevermind, I'm not going to tell a story, as I think I've conveyed, well enough, what I was seeking to convey. Note, not what I trusted I would convey. :lol:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Faith... [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7527378 - 10/17/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Walter1496211 said:
But if I were to offer concrete proof that God and all that he represents as far as my understanding goes is fact. I would guess that even though you know for a fact now that it is true.  You would still refuse to believe it. For the simple fact that it does not alighn to your principle of absolution.  You would refuse to go to heavean becuase you don't believe in God. :wink:




I don't comprehend what basis proposing this notion has other than to establish some form of dichotomy, or, perhaps, hierarchy, between viewpoints, or, rather, those who hold them. Speculating that, even if one were faced with presented, observable, verifiable truth, one would choose to be willfully ignorant isn't exactly discussing the philosophical/spiritual ideas for discussion.

At any rate, the notion is entirely baseless and unsubstantiated. I personally think it wasn't worth proposing, as it seems to be more concerned with alleged personality of other posters rather than ideaology. It doesn't seem to be in line with the intention of participation within this forum.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Faith... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7529128 - 10/17/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Great... we ARE using different definitions. You are using your definition of, "Faith" and I am using the definition provided by the dictionary.

Good to know. There's no need to keep arguing with each other. We aren't even speaking the same language. If we can't agree on the meaning of a word, how can we discuss it?

Don't worry, there'll be other threads...


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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Re: Faith... [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7529217 - 10/17/07 08:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

But if I were to offer concrete proof that God and all that he represents as far as my understanding goes is fact. I would guess that even though you know for a fact now that it is true. You would still refuse to believe it. For the simple fact that




K, when you have concrete proof, try it and see.  Until then, this makes ZERO sense.  A materialist would immediately respond to concrete proof, as their belief system is based upon empirical evidence.  The utter lack of empirical evidence is what creates a more-than-reasonable doubt in the existence of God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and smart blondes. :wink:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
    #7529371 - 10/17/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hahahaha. Great post.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rahz]
    #7529672 - 10/17/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Faith serves us well enough in the natural world. I think the mental function called faith is purely a result of living as an animal. It's a best guess, "best" being the one the animal decides has the best chance of insuring survival.




How does having faith, oh, let's say having faith that a family member is speaking the truth....
Nothing other than the notions in "faith", how does that do anything at all for insuring survival....?




Quote:

Rahz said:
Imagine Bob is being chased by a tiger and comes to a ravine. Bob has never jumped that far before, can he make it? Perhaps not. It seems likely that he will plummet to his death. But he jumps anyway. To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger. To jump, it's likely that he will die, but having faith allows him to try to do something he wouldn't normally do. It takes faith because there is doubt. If Bob had encountered a vine, he wouldn't have experienced faith, he would have just climbed it, with zest.




In this example, I see that there is doubt in just standing there and surviving the situation, and faith in at least trying - as an alternate for standing there....
I didn't understand your notion of "faith=doubt" when you wrote it in another thread either....
Who says faith and doubt are so closely knit together as some kind of "law", like you are making them sound....?
If you have faith in someone, or their character, you can have faith without doubt....
If you have doubt, it is because you don't have faith - or because you have been shown evidence to the contrary....
Does it make me a liar if I say that I have "faith", or "absolute faith", or that I "believe" in someone....?




Quote:

Rahz said:
Because faith is a natural function that serves to insure survival, people have a strong tendency to experience faith without consciously questioning it.




If people don't consciously question faith, doesn't that mean that faith is not consciously doubted....?
Or, are you trying to say that subconsciously, you believe that people doubt everything that they have faith in....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineWalter1496211
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Re: Faith... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7534112 - 10/19/07 04:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Faith to some. Is not knowledge and is intangible. I agree if we disagree on the definition there can be no argument.


--------------------
you see the world through the window of your experience


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Faith... [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7536215 - 10/19/07 04:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, when I first read this thread the other night, I found Rahz's post near the top, disputed it, then read the rest of the thread -
where he kind of already was fighting the same battle I presented....  :smirk:

But the context that he put "faith = doubt" seems wrong, and may be more appropriate to equate "hope = doubt"....
Because if you are hoping for something, you have doubt as to whether or not what you are hoping for will come to be....
That's all....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Faith... [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7536296 - 10/19/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Walter1496211 said:
I am not suggesting that anyone go out and have faith in something that is unknown. I am suggesting that faith is more of a choice to believe in something and support it in doing this it becomes something you know.




So, if I believe in something enough, I can convince myself it's real. That's why faith is synonymous with delusion.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Faith... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7536975 - 10/19/07 08:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We've already discussed faith's synonyms. Delusion is not one of them.

Yes, a person's faith can be delusional... but not always.

I have faith in the theory of gravity. Is that delusional?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Faith... [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7536986 - 10/19/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No, faith is NOT a synonym of delusion

Quote:

Delusion
something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs




Faith is simply belief in something for which there is no evidence.

Cervantes: gravity presents quite a bit of evidence--are you certain that you have faith, or do you have confidence:wink:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Faith... [Re: Veritas]
    #7536988 - 10/19/07 08:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Faith lacks logical proof or MATERIAL evidence.

To reply to your edit:
You can have faith in something, even if there is evidence. Faith's definition has been posted several times in this thread.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
    #7537001 - 10/19/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Eh, same-same.

Quote:

Proof (relevant definition)
the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact




Quote:

Evidence
something that furnishes proof.




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