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Walter1496211
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I was pointing out that in his response he said that faith in the unknowable is a fools errand in this thread that point was already made earlier and I explained earlier that I am not suggesting that anyone go out and have faith in something that is unknown. I am suggesting that faith is more of a choice to believe in something and support it in doing this it becomes something you know. This entire thread has nothing to do with believing in something you don't know..(even though the quote I posted talked about it) My post was merely an explanation that faith is a freedom of choice and a desire to obtain a truth that supports who you are or would like to be.. Religion aside I am speaking of a principle.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
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jonathan_206 said: Faith in God is the most perfect knowledge.
Care to elaborate? I haven't read a more ambigious statement all week.
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Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
How is confidence or trust, or an assertion of the truth evidence of anything other than the fact that the individual chooses to believe, or have confidence in the truth of their assertion?
As far as I can tell, this statement in quotations is no different than the statement "G*d must exist because if G*d didn't exist, people wouldn't have conceived of the idea". Naturally, this statement is erroneous and does not reflect reality.
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Everything in the world is temporary, we know only in part; those things we can see and taste and touch.
Well, we can know more than that which we see and taste and touch, but the statement that we only know reality through the limited amount of information that our sensory devices produce through interacting with reality is an accurate one. The statement that everything in the world is impermanent seems to be mostly accurate, as well.
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But those things which are spiritual, they are eternal.
Which things are we referring to, exactly?
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You can deny the Truth, but the Truth cannot deny himself.
So, what do you refer to when you say "Truth"? The phenomenon of water traveling along the path of least resistance is truth, as far as our observation and understanding have determined.... so I guess your statement about how truth cannot deny "himself" (truth is a him? ) just doesn't make any sense to me. Elaboration, please?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said: Faith in the unknowable is a fools errand.
And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
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fireworks_god said:
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Walter1496211 said: I don't think you really read this thread at all.
Why, because he proposed an alternate viewpoint?
And in support of his viewpoint I would propose my opion directly. I would believe more that "faith without investigation is a fools errand"
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I was pointing out that in his response he said that faith in the unknowable is a fools errand in this thread that point was already made earlier and I explained earlier that I am not suggesting that anyone go out and have faith in something that is unknown.
The fact that someone has already expressed a similar viewpoint, or the fact that you stated you were not suggesting that viewpoint, does not in any way bring the conclusion that someone who expresses their viewpoint on the topic in general didn't read the thread. What you are talking about doesn't mean others aren't free to present an alternate viewpoint on the matter.
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I am suggesting that faith is more of a choice to believe in something and support it in doing this it becomes something you know.
Yes, choosing to have faith means that one believes something, and believing in something subsequently implies that the individual has concluded that one knows that which is believed is true.
If that is the extent of what you are suggesting, then clearly there are no objections to it - that is the mechanics of faith/belief.
Of course, deciding that something is true doesn't actually make it true, unless the matter in question is a phenomenon that one's choice creates. Of course, in such a situation, it isn't true until it is made to be true, and simply having faith that it is doesn't actually make it true.
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My post was merely an explanation that faith is a freedom of choice and a desire to obtain a truth that supports who you are or would like to be..
Any examples come to mind? Learning a new language comes to mind... if one has faith that one knows a foreign language, without actually learning it, then having faith doesn't make it so that one knows a foreign language. Or are we referring to having faith that one has the ability to learn a foreign language? Simply having faith that one has the ability to learn a foreign language, doesn't make it so that one is capable.
Please help me better understand what type of matter we are speaking of, and why faith is necessary for an individual to make choices as to who they will be and how they will act.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with finding your own true meaning. Inner beliefs can have a huge impact on how we feel about life, and I think that as long as it does make one happy, a belief is not something detrimental. However, from your main post it is easily understandable that the reason you wanted to talk about the meaning of faith was because you heard a lot of people asking for proves:
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I hear a lot of people asking others to prove to them things are true... Why??? Can you on the same hand prove it is not true... I think that if all things were before us then our lives would be mundane and pointless.
When someone presents his beliefs, especially in a philosophical discussion, it is necessary to set things straight and find out of there's a logic regarding that belief. Because when one exposes his personal belief to a public, the risk is that others might adopt it as being true. And then that belief isn't personal anymore and that's how ambiguities start. Any "belief", if presented to a public has the potential of becoming a "religion". This is why we need to learn to discern the is from the is not, when the case requires.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
I'd be willing to wager that most people do not really hold a perspective that reflects the nature of reality, consciously existing immersed within the present moment and all. If they did, then they could not form a belief in something that is not presently experienced. Personally, I couldn't believe that a man named Pluto existed, although I could enertain a reasonable suspicion that it is so, but it doesn't matter if he did or not anyways.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Walter1496211
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I am talking about having faith in personal choices exactly as you say like going to college will help me to become more educated and in turn have a better job later. This is not always true(or lets take out truth for the sake of philosophy) and use fact. This is not a fact because lots of people go to college and don't make money at all. But when that person makes that choice to believe that going to college will benefit him he has "Chosen to have faith". You are correct that it will not make him better at going to college or make him perform better. But it will become a part of who he is.. And to make an example using words. If he had perfect faith he would never doubt his choice. If his faith was flawed he would regret making this choice especially when school became difficult (also taking into account this is an example and all humans are flawed and will doubt). I am suggesting that having perfect faith in times of doubt is something to strive for. And I am not speaking of inanimate objects I am speaking of choices and paths that we take. Making a choice based on "your belief system" is something that should be made with some type of understanding that what your doing is healthy somehow to your progression. I was not suggesting that the poster not post I was suggesting maybe read what was posted and make argument supporting his point.
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
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Walter1496211 said: And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
I'd be willing to wager that most people do not really hold a perspective that reflects the nature of reality, consciously existing immersed within the present moment and all. If they did, then they could not form a belief in something that is not presently experienced. Personally, I couldn't believe that a man named Pluto existed, although I could enertain a reasonable suspicion that it is so, but it doesn't matter if he did or not anyways.
You speak for yourself. I was suggesting more hold a different opinion than you do. And no it doesn't matter if he did or did not exist it would matter how your belief in him effected your choices.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Walter1496211
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
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And I would be willing to bet that more people believe in things that they have never seen than do not. For instance if i asked a million people on this planet if they believed pluto existed I might get less than a hundred people who say no.
Yes, there is nothing wrong with finding your own true meaning. Inner beliefs can have a huge impact on how we feel about life, and I think that as long as it does make one happy, a belief is not something detrimental. However, from your main post it is easily understandable that the reason you wanted to talk about the meaning of faith was because you heard a lot of people asking for proves:
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I hear a lot of people asking others to prove to them things are true... Why??? Can you on the same hand prove it is not true... I think that if all things were before us then our lives would be mundane and pointless.
When someone presents his beliefs, especially in a philosophical discussion, it is necessary to set things straight and find out of there's a logic regarding that belief. Because when one exposes his personal belief to a public, the risk is that others might adopt it as being true. And then that belief isn't personal anymore and that's how ambiguities start. Any "belief", if presented to a public has the potential of becoming a "religion". This is why we need to learn to discern the is from the is not, when the case requires.
I completely agree with everything you said.. I am suggesting that when people ask for proof they are not trying to find out if its reallity or not. They are trying to take that reallity from someone who has chosen it. This might not be true at all but I was suggesting it. And I am a religious person but I was trying to reflect more on the principle of faith and how to many people rap it up and suggest it only has to do with believing in a higher being. It is not my attempt to make people believe or show them the light. It is my attempt to help them understand the power of believing in what "You want to". And how doing this can lead to happiness.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
Walter1496211 said: I am talking about having faith in personal choices exactly as you say like going to college will help me to become more educated and in turn have a better job later.
What, do you feel, is the difference between faith, and observation of the nature of reality? Anyone who observes reality is able to determine that successful completion of college may provide a means of being educated and produce opportunities for more exclusive jobs.
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But when that person makes that choice to believe that going to college will benefit him he has "Chosen to have faith".
Yes, choosing to have faith is choosing to have faith. What I am not grasping is why it is necessary or beneficial to have faith. To me, it seems counter-productive to one's ability to succesfully navigate reality, as one assumes an aspect of reality is known, when it is not. This clearly works agansit our ability to know reality directly, as it presents itself to be, and to act in the most effective response to the manner in which reality exists.
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But it will become a part of who he is..
What will become a part of who he is? The unsubstantiated belief?
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And to make an example using words. If he had perfect faith he would never doubt his choice.
So why is making a decision to never question one's decisions beneficial?
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If his faith was flawed he would regret making this choice especially when school became difficult (also taking into account this is an example and all humans are flawed and will doubt).
I don't understand how you have concluded that this hypothetical individual would react in such a manner. A reasonable individual could expect that pursuing such a path would not always be an easy pursuit. I simply do not comprehend how it follows that making a decision and then encountering difficulty in one's path automatically designates that one would doubt one's decision, or, if they did doubt their decision, why doubting it would be a disadvantage. Consciously exploring why one has presented themselves to be in such a situation, after all, can empower one to dedicate themselves to accomplishing that which is difficult.
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I am suggesting that having perfect faith in times of doubt is something to strive for.
I conclude that your suggestion is detrimental to the ability of an individual to understand and respond to reality.
Why is a time of doubt something to be avoided?
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Making a choice based on "your belief system" is something that should be made with some type of understanding that what your doing is healthy somehow to your progression.
That it is healthy, or that it could be? An individual that recognizes possibillities and explores them, as opposed to an individual that feels one possibility is most satisfying, and firmly believes that this possibility will be the outcome, is more capable of knowing reality for what it is, and thus more capable of acting in manners that will allow them to seize more preferable possibilities. 
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I was not suggesting that the poster not post I was suggesting maybe read what was posted and make argument supporting his point.
If this was the case, then requesting that an argument be supported before it is considered, instead of questioning whether or not they read the thread, is a more effective means of achieving that intention.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Walter1496211 said: You speak for yourself.
I am aware.
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I was suggesting more hold a different opinion than you do.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't understand what relevance it has. Does the idea that more individuals hold to a certain manner actually substantiate truth? I think not; to think so is fallacious.
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And no it doesn't matter if he did or did not exist it would matter how your belief in him effected your choices.
Holding a belief that reality does not support, regardless of how it affects your choices, is a detriment to one's ability to understand and know reality for how it is presents itself to be, and a hindrance to one's ability to navigate reality, to make the best choices possible, for the benefit of oneself and reality.
If believing that I was the second coming of Jesus made it easier for me to address large crowds, then clearly the belief affects my choice, yet clearly this doesn't speak for the idea that we should form stupid, unsubstantiated beliefs. I don't need to believe that in order to bring myself to be capable to address large crowds easier - reality as it is presented and unobstructedly observed provides the most effective path to changing myself and reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Walter1496211
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You have silenced me. I am not trying to convince anyone at all that what I am saying is fact I was suggesting my veiwpoint. And you have suggested yours. I am happy. And I know you are. Next time I will ask people to support their arguments. Humbly I respect your opinion. If you were here I would offer you a beer and a joint.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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fireworks_god
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Walter1496211 said: I am suggesting that when people ask for proof they are not trying to find out if its reallity or not. They are trying to take that reallity from someone who has chosen it.
How are you capable of discerning the intention others have when they question a presented perspective? 
"That reality"? There is only reality, and, of course, everyone's subsequent interpretation of reality. Proposing an alternate perspective of reality, or questioning the foundation of another's intrepation of reality, may or may not be an act of "taking reality away from someone".
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It is my attempt to help them understand the power of believing in what "You want to". And how doing this can lead to happiness.
Reminds me of a passage of Scripture....
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Matt. 7:24-7 said: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Clearly, Jesus' sayings in this example are analogous to that of reality as it exists. Those who base their perception of reality upon direct observation of the manners in which reality presents itself to be, and act and think in accordance with reality, are not susceptible to having reality tear down their state of being and their path.
The question is whether or not we form our interpretation of reality in "what we wish to be", or if our interpretation of reality is founded upon reality itself. Both are paths to happiness and quality of state of being, yet only one can weather the storm of reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Rose
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Faith is important. Although it seems you are arguing against that fact FG. Am I incorrect? Perhaps I misread.
Rahz is correct, faith is a largely drawn from our fight/flight instinct.
Faith + instinct = GOOD.
Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.
However, humans run into trouble when they think too much about personal faith and subject THEIR faith onto others.
Faith + imposition = bad
Faith does have value... and faith is real... but faith is personal and instinctual... otherwise it becomes a very bad, misleading thing.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by Rose (10/16/07 02:45 PM)
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Walter1496211
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I am suggesting that when people ask for proof they are not trying to find out if its reallity or not. They are trying to take that reallity from someone who has chosen it. This might not be true at all but I was suggesting it
That is what I said next time take the full quote.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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a_guy_named_ai
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Quote:
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jonathan_206 said: Faith in God is the most perfect knowledge.
Care to elaborate? I haven't read a more ambigious statement all week. 
Faith in God recognizes his eternal nature. That's what faith is, the evidence of things not seen. To recognise his eternal nature, it is totally conclusive.With the knowledge we have of the natural, we can only know some, but never totally.
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Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
How is confidence or trust, or an assertion of the truth evidence of anything other than the fact that the individual chooses to believe, or have confidence in the truth of their assertion?
We perceive Spiritual evidence with Spiritual perception. We can only perceive Spirit with spirit.
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Everything in the world is temporary, we know only in part; those things we can see and taste and touch.
Well, we can know more than that which we see and taste and touch, but the statement that we only know reality through the limited amount of information that our sensory devices produce through interacting with reality is an accurate one. The statement that everything in the world is impermanent seems to be mostly accurate, as well.
If you presuppose that we cannot perceive anything outside of the body, then you eliminate beforehand any opportunity to recognize that which is Spiritual.
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But those things which are spiritual, they are eternal.
Which things are we referring to, exactly? 
Love is eternal. God is Love.
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You can deny the Truth, but the Truth cannot deny himself.
So, what do you refer to when you say "Truth"? The phenomenon of water traveling along the path of least resistance is truth, as far as our observation and understanding have determined.... so I guess your statement about how truth cannot deny "himself" (truth is a him? ) just doesn't make any sense to me. Elaboration, please?
Truth is that which IS. god is the ultimate reality. Everything that does not abide in the Truth, abides in a void of darkness.
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13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Truth is light.
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1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
2 corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 corinthians 4
3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
1 John 1:6-8
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Ephesians 5
8For ye were at one time in darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine on you.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/16/07 02:53 PM)
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fireworks_god
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I quote that which I feel like responding to. I was not interested in discussing how you associate with the idea you put forth, but simply the idea itself, which is precisely why I quoted specifically what I quoted.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Faith... [Re: Rose]
#7523575 - 10/16/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Faith + instinct = GOOD.
Faith is a HUGE part of the creative process. Without faith, we'd have no improv, no jazz, no suspension of disbelief, no songs would be written and no stories would be told. Without faith, no creative thought would be made real... because it takes conviction, and belief in something which does not yet exist, to create.
Rahz's post was excellent, only that what he described is not faith. First let's see what faith means:
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faith (fāth) Pronunciation Key n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust. 3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Now let's review Rahz's example:
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Imagine Bob is being chased by a tiger and comes to a ravine. Bob has never jumped that far before, can he make it? Perhaps not. It seems likely that he will plummet to his death. But he jumps anyway. To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger. To jump, it's likely that he will die, but having faith allows him to try to do something he wouldn't normally do. It takes faith because there is doubt. If Bob had encountered a vine, he wouldn't have experienced faith, he would have just climbed it, with zest.
Allow me to tell you that Bob's decision was not the product of faith, but of reason. The proof resides i n a few words from his own example: "To not jump is to insure his demise at the hands of the tiger.". It can be called comparing the loss, or being able to determine which of those options were potentially more dangerous and which could become his way out of the misfortune that he was going through. In my book this is reasoning, not faith.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
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Too many quotes to follow. Care to summarize?
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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