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mikeytro
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grain to grain transfer...gone bad
#7516024 - 10/14/07 02:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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so I did my first grain to grain transfer about a week and a half ago looking at the jars today about 2/3 of them have contams...which is a pretty bad failure ratio I plan on doing it again today on 12 jars
I've read a few teks on it and even used a glove box with latex gloves. however I did not use a mask or any sort of air filter. This time around I bought medical grade masks but a air filter isn't available.
any tips?
edit: just to clarify the glove box is a very make shift box that has no gloves attached..basically just holes to put hands in
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
Edited by mikeytro (10/14/07 02:35 PM)
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Walter1496211
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7516035 - 10/14/07 02:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry to hear that man.. I know this is probably way unorthodox.. But when I do G2G I pull everything out of my fridge which isn't much.. I clean the hell out of it I pull all the shelves out but one and I do it to it. I of course use gloves and surgical mask.. Anyway thats how I do it.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: Walter1496211]
#7516043 - 10/14/07 02:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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why do it in the fridge? dont you have to keep the door open anyways? am I missing something? anyways thanks for the idea nonetheless
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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simplemachine
Manfly


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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7516045 - 10/14/07 02:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Using a still air box should be plenty.
Maybe the master jar was hiding some contams?
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: simplemachine]
#7516053 - 10/14/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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hmmm maybe you're right I actually used 3 half pint jars in the first transfer which may actually give reason to why some are contaminated and others arnt we'll see how round 2 goes..
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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Walter1496211
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: simplemachine]
#7516056 - 10/14/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yea I keep it open... Like I said not a practice that many would condone but my reasoning is that I don't think bacteria and mold are really airborne at lower temperatures so I figure there is less of a chance. I could be wrong but its always worked for me.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/14/07 02:43 PM)
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: Walter1496211]
#7516057 - 10/14/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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ahhh I see, because the drop in temperature interesting method
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7516066 - 10/14/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have never really heard of anyone else doing it my way so I can't say its full proof.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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simplemachine
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7516087 - 10/14/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikeytro said: hmmm maybe you're right I actually used 3 half pint jars in the first transfer which may actually give reason to why some are contaminated and others arnt we'll see how round 2 goes..
Thats what it sounds like then...Plus its the only reason I've had failure rates that high.
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acommunistspy
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad *DELETED* [Re: Walter1496211]
#7516097 - 10/14/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by acommunistspyReason for deletion: this never happened
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Edited by acommunistspy (10/14/07 02:52 PM)
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Pr0_X
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: acommunistspy]
#7516181 - 10/14/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I never had much luck with G2G's even when done in a glovebox, G2G is inferior to LC anyways.
Best luck to you and hopefully we see a some pic's of a tier filled with myco pr0n soon
-------------------- It's okay to hurt my feelings cause you know, they're so numb anyway. but I guess it's what I get for being to fuckin stupid to stay away - Jake - Support the FSR at www.fsrcanada.com and www.fsre.nl
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RogerRabbit
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: Pr0_X]
#7516380 - 10/14/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
G2G is inferior to LC anyways.
Not correct. I have at least a 99.99% success rate with grain to grain transfers. The key is to learn to do it right. If you don't have a flow hood, you'll need 100% still air. Have the jar lids off no more than five seconds. Don't set the lid down. Hold it with one hand while pouring from your master jar with the other hand. This allows you to return the lid as soon as possible. Don't stick anything into the master. Bang it against a tire to break it up, and then pour the grains out like sand.
Clean your glovebox and leave damp(with water). Wash your gloves with alcohol after putting them on. Wipe the jars and lids with an alcohol soaked towel prior to opening. Work fast and accurately. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7516495 - 10/14/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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RR thanks for the advise on not setting the lid down + holding it, did that last time
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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The shroomy 1
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7516986 - 10/14/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikeytro said: hmmm maybe you're right I actually used 3 half pint jars in the first transfer which may actually give reason to why some are contaminated and others arnt we'll see how round 2 goes..
I would like to recommend that you use larger jars. Try quart jars instead. If indeed it was the master jar that was contaminated, you would have seen it in the quart jar long before you would have thought of doing the transfer.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7517119 - 10/14/07 07:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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yea I use 1/2 pints, pints and quart jars just had em all laying around so I thought why not
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7517403 - 10/14/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The only use I have for 1/2 pints now is for print making and using them as Petri Dishes. You should really concentrate on larger jars. In my opinion.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7517509 - 10/14/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have 12 quarts 18 pints and 8 half pints alright I know its wiser to do larger jars but who really cares..wanted in knock up as many as possible
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7517557 - 10/14/07 09:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikeytro said: alright I know its wiser to do larger jars but who really cares.
Holy crap! I was under the impression that YOU DID!
Quote:
so I did my first grain to grain transfer about a week and a half ago looking at the jars today about 2/3 of them have contams...which is a pretty bad failure ratio
With those contamination ratios I'd be listening to advice.
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AMU Q&A thread.
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anarchOi
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7517590 - 10/14/07 09:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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my first glovebox was a failure, i tried to make it with kitchen gloves but i did it wrong and the gloves sucked so i'll have to try making another
so far, open air has worked pretty well for me, i use a larger room (preferably not the kitchen) and Oust like mad, as long as you don't have airflow, it's pretty hard for contams to get in unless you've been waving trich/cobweb infections everywhere in your area xD
if you're using a smaller room, say a super-cleaned bathroom, wouldn't you need to stay inside of it after oust'n like crazy? if not, when you open the door you're letting all your cleaned air out and "fresh air" in
it's likely a contam in your grain that made it through your sterilization process, as you said.
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: The shroomy 1]
#7517955 - 10/14/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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what does jar size have to do with failure ratio? by wiser I actually ment more logical...but hey why would I not inoculate as many as possible that I have on hand? and finally please stop acting like a douche
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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acommunistspy
the fun nazi,NOT to beconfused withthe fun-nazi



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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad *DELETED* [Re: mikeytro]
#7517962 - 10/14/07 11:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by acommunistspyReason for deletion: this never happened
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mikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: acommunistspy]
#7517966 - 10/14/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I still dont really see it but whatever I'll drop it
-------------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." - Einstein
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The shroomy 1
Luminous beings surround me




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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7518162 - 10/15/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I apologize. I must have missed the point of this thread somewhere along the lines. Sorry
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AMU Q&A thread.
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TheAfficianado
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
#7518853 - 10/15/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi, I wanted to weigh in on this topic.
First and foremost, my experience has been to never fill quart jars over 1/3 full with already hydrated and expanded rye. I only use rye berries because they are a uniform size and will colonise uniformly. This means you fill less than 1/2 inch of dry rye berries in each jar-- very economical for a grain that only costs 1$ per lb.
I also use tyvex under my lids, the holes in my lids are a single inoculation hole and a 1 centimeter square hole made for gas exchange. Also I double pressure cook at 15 psi for and hour, then I wait at least 24 hours, then pressure cook for another 45 minutes at least.
I absolutely insist on an incubator-- two rubber maid tubs with a fish tank heater. In grain-to-grain, speed of colonisation is key. Anything over a week and you will get contams.
My source grain is the fluffiest and whitest and most colonised of all my jars-- this means lesser jars are bulked onto oat straw. But this is okay because the best culture is the source for all new growth, the rest go obsolete.
So I have 1/2 to 1/3 of a quart jar to do my grain to grain. I use a spoon dipped in bleach and then washed in tap water, then right before I do the transfer I submerge it in peroxide. I do not dry it off, I use it wet.
I make sure my air conditioning and ceiling fans are off. I take a shower with anti-bacterial soap. I losen the lids on the target jars so that all I have to do is lift the lid. I dunk my hands in peroxide. I do a wipe of the exterior of all jars with peroxide on a paper towel. I line up all jars-- usually no more than five.
I do not use a box or anything else. But I make sure there is no air movement and I DON'T BREATHE DURING THE INDIVIDUAL TRANSFER. So there is the movement to take the lid off the source jar, scoop, and place in the target jar with the spoon while your off hand lifts the lid of the target jar and immediately replaces it. One jar process can take at least 45 seconds. Sometimes getting a clean spoon of grain is tough. The last jars I ditch the spoon all together and just dump the grain from the jar.
I use this technique a lot. I get minor green contams 1 every 7 jars or less. Those jars go to the garden and often produce outside.
But what is key is that a large heaping tablespoon of inoculated grain is used and that it is shaken and distributed through the target grain and that they are incubated immediately. If they are quickly colonised, then contams are ever less likely. I look at my jars twice or three times a day and rotate them in the incubator.
Now many will cry foul, but I have found that the fact that I DON'T have a "safe", "contam-free" environment/box makes me more cautious and speedy in my transfers. So there is less chance of me being careless.
In my opinion, speed is everything. If there seems to be a plateau of new growth, I move the jars to their side with the hole in the lid on top to maximise the surface area of gas exchange in the jar. There is a greater area of grain surface exposed to gas if the jar is sideways than if the grain is compacted at the bottom of the jar. This is where 2/3 of an empty jar produces much more spawn quicker than if you put 1/2 or 2/3 full of grain. It took a long time for me to learn this.
Continue to learn the warning signs of contams, ditch immediately, in a section unused for casing.
I hope this helps. TheAfficianado
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simplemachine
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: TheAfficianado]
#7518893 - 10/15/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Now many will cry foul, but I have found that the fact that I DON'T have a "safe", "contam-free" environment/box makes me more cautious and speedy in my transfers. So there is less chance of me being careless.
Quote:
I absolutely insist on an incubator-- two rubber maid tubs with a fish tank heater. In grain-to-grain, speed of colonization is key. Anything over a week and you will get contams.
I would never suggest doing g2g transfers outside a GB. I've seen it work, but I've seen it fail a lot more often.
Quote:
This is where 2/3 of an empty jar produces much more spawn quicker than if you put 1/2 or 2/3 full of grain. It took a long time for me to learn this.
I think the ration of colonized:uncolonized grain is the determining factor for speed of colonization. If you added 1 spoonful of colonized rye to a half full jar it would colonize faster than a spoonful of rye in a 2/3 full jar. Its about ratios, not the amount of "grain surface exposed to gas."
I fill my jars about 3/4 full (1/3 seems like an awful waste of space to me) and inoculate with 2 spoonfuls of colonized WBS in my still air box.. The jars colonize in about a week (7-10 days) at room temp.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: simplemachine]
#7518959 - 10/15/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to grain to grain transfers. I use about a tablespoon or two from the grain master into each quart jar filled 2/3 full with sterilized rye. Using twice this amount from the grain master will NOT halve colonization time. Beyond about ten to twenty percent, there is no gain at all in speed of colonization. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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anarchOi
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7519346 - 10/15/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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RR have you ever tried puting crushed BRF cakes into a rye berry jar? as in a fully colonized cake crushed and used to inoculate the rye?
i did this once with dramatic colonizing time i had pint jars 2/3 filled with rye, then i filled them up with crushed cake til there was barely enough room to give it a good shake shook 'em, then had fully colonized jars in 2 days
i did it with only moderately sterile conditions i figured it was so fast of a colonization that contams had no chance
i'm curious as to what your opinion is about using this^ as an alternative to g2g
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RogerRabbit
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: anarchOi]
#7519537 - 10/15/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's not an alternative to g2g, it is g2g. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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PowRGnome
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7520003 - 10/15/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Roger what do you figure your ratio is if you're doing 1 tablespoon into each jar? 10:1?
Edit: I'd also like to add that I have had infititely more success with g2g than with lc. g2g will make it A LOT more obvious when you have failed and will not waste your time. It is great as a measure of your sterile procedure.
Edited by PowRGnome (10/15/07 03:40 PM)
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