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Offlineacommunistspy
the fun nazi,NOT to beconfused withthe fun-nazi


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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad *DELETED* [Re: mikeytro]
    #7517962 - 10/14/07 11:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by acommunistspy

Reason for deletion: this never happened



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Offlinemikeytro
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: acommunistspy]
    #7517966 - 10/14/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I still dont really see it but whatever I'll drop it


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OfflineThe shroomy 1
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
    #7518162 - 10/15/07 12:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I apologize. I must have missed the point of this thread somewhere along the lines. Sorry


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OfflineTheAfficianado
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: mikeytro]
    #7518853 - 10/15/07 10:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hi,
I wanted to weigh in on this topic.

First and foremost, my experience has been to never fill quart jars over 1/3 full with already hydrated and expanded rye. I only use rye berries because they are a uniform size and will colonise uniformly. This means you fill less than 1/2 inch of dry rye berries in each jar-- very economical for a grain that only costs 1$ per lb.

I also use tyvex under my lids, the holes in my lids are a single inoculation hole and a 1 centimeter square hole made for gas exchange. Also I double pressure cook at 15 psi for and hour, then I wait at least 24 hours, then pressure cook for another 45 minutes at least.

I absolutely insist on an incubator-- two rubber maid tubs with a fish tank heater. In grain-to-grain, speed of colonisation is key. Anything over a week and you will get contams.

My source grain is the fluffiest and whitest and most colonised of all my jars-- this means lesser jars are bulked onto oat straw. But this is okay because the best culture is the source for all new growth, the rest go obsolete.

So I have 1/2 to 1/3 of a quart jar to do my grain to grain. I use a spoon dipped in bleach and then washed in tap water, then right before I do the transfer I submerge it in peroxide. I do not dry it off, I use it wet.

I make sure my air conditioning and ceiling fans are off. I take a shower with anti-bacterial soap. I losen the lids on the target jars so that all I have to do is lift the lid. I dunk my hands in peroxide. I do a wipe of the exterior of all jars with peroxide on a paper towel. I line up all jars-- usually no more than five.

I do not use a box or anything else. But I make sure there is no air movement and I DON'T BREATHE DURING THE INDIVIDUAL TRANSFER. So there is the movement to take the lid off the source jar, scoop, and place in the target jar with the spoon while your off hand lifts the lid of the target jar and immediately replaces it. One jar process can take at least 45 seconds. Sometimes getting a clean spoon of grain is tough. The last jars I ditch the spoon all together and just dump the grain from the jar.

I use this technique a lot. I get minor green contams 1 every 7 jars or less. Those jars go to the garden and often produce outside.

But what is key is that a large heaping tablespoon of inoculated grain is used and that it is shaken and distributed through the target grain and that they are incubated immediately. If they are quickly colonised, then contams are ever less likely. I look at my jars twice or three times a day and rotate them in the incubator.

Now many will cry foul, but I have found that the fact that I DON'T have a "safe", "contam-free" environment/box makes me more cautious and speedy in my transfers. So there is less chance of me being careless.

In my opinion, speed is everything. If there seems to be a plateau of new growth, I move the jars to their side with the hole in the lid on top to maximise the surface area of gas exchange in the jar. There is a greater area of grain surface exposed to gas if the jar is sideways than if the grain is compacted at the bottom of the jar. This is where 2/3 of an empty jar produces much more spawn quicker than if you put 1/2 or 2/3 full of grain. It took a long time for me to learn this.

Continue to learn the warning signs of contams, ditch immediately, in a section unused for casing.

I hope this helps.
TheAfficianado


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: TheAfficianado]
    #7518893 - 10/15/07 10:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Now many will cry foul, but I have found that the fact that I DON'T have a "safe", "contam-free" environment/box makes me more cautious and speedy in my transfers. So there is less chance of me being careless.




Quote:

I absolutely insist on an incubator-- two rubber maid tubs with a fish tank heater. In grain-to-grain, speed of colonization is key. Anything over a week and you will get contams.




I would never suggest doing g2g transfers outside a GB. I've seen it work, but I've seen it fail a lot more often.

Quote:

This is where 2/3 of an empty jar produces much more spawn quicker than if you put 1/2 or 2/3 full of grain. It took a long time for me to learn this.





I think the ration of colonized:uncolonized grain is the determining factor for speed of colonization. If you added 1 spoonful of colonized rye to a half full jar it would colonize faster than a spoonful of rye in a 2/3 full jar. Its about ratios, not the amount of "grain surface exposed to gas."

I fill my jars about 3/4 full (1/3 seems like an awful waste of space to me) and inoculate with 2 spoonfuls of colonized WBS in my still air box.. The jars colonize in about a week (7-10 days) at room temp.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: simplemachine]
    #7518959 - 10/15/07 11:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to grain to grain transfers. I use about a tablespoon or two from the grain master into each quart jar filled 2/3 full with sterilized rye. Using twice this amount from the grain master will NOT halve colonization time. Beyond about ten to twenty percent, there is no gain at all in speed of colonization.
RR


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OfflineanarchOi
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7519346 - 10/15/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

RR
have you ever tried puting crushed BRF cakes into a rye berry jar? as in a fully colonized cake crushed and used to inoculate the rye?

i did this once with dramatic colonizing time
i had pint jars 2/3 filled with rye, then i filled them up with crushed cake til there was barely enough room to give it a good shake
shook 'em, then had fully colonized jars in 2 days

i did it with only moderately sterile conditions
i figured it was so fast of a colonization that contams had no chance

i'm curious as to what your opinion is about using this^ as an alternative to g2g


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: anarchOi]
    #7519537 - 10/15/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That's not an alternative to g2g, it is g2g.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflinePowRGnome
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Re: grain to grain transfer...gone bad [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7520003 - 10/15/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Roger what do you figure your ratio is if you're doing 1 tablespoon into each jar? 10:1?

Edit: I'd also like to add that I have had infititely more success with g2g than with lc. g2g will make it A LOT more obvious when you have failed and will not waste your time. It is great as a measure of your sterile procedure.


Edited by PowRGnome (10/15/07 03:40 PM)


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