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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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The Case Against DMT Elves
    #7514375 - 10/14/07 12:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The Case Against DMT Elves by James Kent

full article here

I have studied this issue very closely for the past fifteen years, and though I have not published the results of all my research I would like to share with you some of the conclusions I've made about DMT and the dramatic phenomena it produces.

In short, I do not believe DMT is a gateway to an alternate dimension, nor does it induce contact with autonomous elves and alien entities. Yes, DMT produces a vivid other-worldly landscape when ingested, often including elves, aliens, insects, snakes, jaguars, etc. This is true for the majority of people who try it. Some people do not have such vivid responses, but many do. Although this may appear at first glance to be "shocking," it is actually no more shocking then the fact that most people dream at night, or that most people see geometric patterns (pressure phosphenes) when they close their eyes and press against their eyeballs. But the difference between pressure phosphenes and DMT is that DMT is illegal and very hard to come by, so most people never have the opportunity to experience it. If we could all hold our breath for a minute and produce vivid hallucinations of alien landscapes it would seem quite mundane, no more than a mere curiosity of the human condition. However, since this particular alien landscape is produced by a specific rare substance (DMT), people seem to think it is akin to unlocking the mysteries of the universe when they actually get their hands on it.

Now don't get me wrong, DMT is stunning in its effect, no doubt. But, like anything, when you do it many times the magic tends to wear off and reveal itself for what it is; an exotic aberration of the brain's perceptual mechanics. To illustrate this point I would like to offer the following observations:

1. DMT acts primarily at the 5-HT2A receptor, which is where the hallucinogenic tryptamines work their visual magic. Without going into all the details here, let's just assume for a moment that a molecule with the proper shape acting at 5-HT2A site can significantly disrupt and/or enhance visual sensory processing, depending on dosage. If this is the case, then dumping DMT into the perceptual wetworks is akin to messing with the logic that produces the display on the computer screen you are looking at right now. Any programmer can tell you that a single line of code consisting of only a few characters can drastically alter the way your screen presents the data coming from your video card. It can make the screen flicker, blink, warp, twist, or fall into infinitely recursive fractalline chaos. When this happens is your monitor now displaying an "alternate reality" or "parallel dimension"? No, it is not. It is simply taking the same old data and processing it with a new factor in the base algorithm (disruption/excitement at the 5HT2A receptor).


More at the link...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7515331 - 10/14/07 10:55 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting article. Point taken.


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OfflineLion
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7515346 - 10/14/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The hills started rolling likes waves of tremendous power. I thought, 'Oh shit! Here it comes!' I did not know what IT was, but knew it was far beyond any common perceptual distortion. A fear gripped me like none I have felt. The power built and built until one hill was looming over me like a tidal wave, then the Logos spoke, well more like shouted: 'How many more fucking miracles do you need?' It was like huge hand had slapped me across the face as hard as possible. I actually fell (or was knocked) over, such was the physical and/or psychic shockwave.


Was this an "exotic abberation" as well? Maybe it is impossible to know, but I'd be interested to hear your honest opinion.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: Lion]
    #7515370 - 10/14/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I suspect that it's called an "aberration" because there are not enough data about it. I think that a more accurate description would be a natural reaction to a certain substance.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: Lion]
    #7515384 - 10/14/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It is impossible to determine.

However, as no one has yet shown any 'information' gathered during a trip to have been verified as not coming from another source or having been predictive or showing real evidence of telepathy; it seems to be 'all inside the head' no matter how powerful the experience.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7515468 - 10/14/07 11:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

....which doesn't even remotely diminish the power or meaningfullness of the experience. Of course it's 'inside' our heads. I've never understood why people have such a strong need to believe in external magical beings when there is such an incredible wealth of wonder that is our own subconscious mind. Maybe it's embarrassing to own certain parts of ourselves and so it feels better to externalize it, or maybe people think that their experience will only be taken seriously, will only be justified, if it explained through an encounter with an externality.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7515614 - 10/14/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It is impossible to determine.

However, as no one has yet shown any 'information' gathered during a trip to have been verified as not coming from another source or having been predictive or showing real evidence of telepathy; it seems to be 'all inside the head' no matter how powerful the experience.




In his many years of work, Stanislov Grof claims to have confirmed psychicly obtained information to be correct, without prior knowledge of it. I haven't personally verified it, and to completely believe it, we'd have to take his and his patient's word that they are truthful. But it stands to say that he's got some pretty convincing examples where people draw mandalas while under the influence of LSD or holotropic breathwork, and then later confirmed some of this information, for example by digging through a celtic monastary's personal library in which the person could not have had knowledge (supposedly).

But yeah, its strange that DMT produces the same themes for everyone. But strange doesn't equate into anything else.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7516320 - 10/14/07 03:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I've never understood why people have such a strong need to believe in external magical beings when there is such an incredible wealth of wonder that is our own subconscious mind.




The explanantion is fairly simple. If there was evidence of an Overmind, group consciousness or telepathy, it would upset the materialistic view point and give real credence to a new paradigm.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7517073 - 10/14/07 06:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

kent really explains nothing
but his attitude is quite clear,
and the number of suggestive facts he can repeat ('charming') are compelling.

as a programmer, I must say that you can alter a function or a line of code in very few ways and still have the program work - even in a wonky fashion. so even his analogies fail to support the poor explanations.

it's amazing what you can get away with when you talk over others' heads.

problem is, there are few qualified scientists getting funding in this area.

(that is not to indicate that I think the dmt elves or salvia elves or lsd/shroom elves exist in a reality beyond the context of mentation)


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7518226 - 10/15/07 12:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What is the difference between "in your mind" and outside? Far as I can tell there is no mind, just a little self-reflective fold in the super consciousness. No inside or outside.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7518377 - 10/15/07 04:37 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It is ridiculous to even write such an article. The fact that hallucinogens cause hallucinations is so basic that it needs not repeating.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #7518906 - 10/15/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Divided, I came to the same conclusion.
It doesn't really matter for the individum if these entities are inside or outside our head, because at one (high abstraction-)level, it becomes the same.
They are there to handle you, or to been handled by you :wink:

Almost the same with all those 'entities', which some claim only in one's head.

The inside and the outside are strongly interlinked and in history we just started to find out 'how'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineGrok
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7519023 - 10/15/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
kent really explains nothing

you can alter a function or a line of code in very few ways and still have the program work - even in a wonky fashion. so even his analogies fail to support the poor explanations.




I agree. A breakthrough DMT trip isn't anything like what a distorted version of reality is like. It's truly like a different world where the impossible has unfolded all around you. It's utterly alien and bears no resemblance to anything our senses take in normally, while at the same time seeming as though it's technologically sophisticated and expertly crafted beyond anything we could do. Not only that but the variety of experiences are boundless. It's never the same and it can ALWAYS blow you away. Despite what Kent says about "losing the magic", it's never left me and I would say that the last several times I've used DMT have been among the most jaw dropping. "Science fiction made fact" and "stranger than fiction" don't do it justice. It's really hard to exaggerate how amazing DMT can be, completely irregardless of whether or not it's externally valid, a hallucination, or the true deeper nature of reality and life. It warrants a great deal of investigation, and all you need is a kitchen, credit card, and internet connection to explore it yourself.

Just curious OC, have you used DMT? I would sincerely be interested to hear your personal accounts if so.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
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OfflineShroomFan
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: Grok]
    #7525845 - 10/16/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

just as with anything your mind produces, it is as real as you make it to be


--------------------
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OfflineNobodhi
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: ShroomFan]
    #7526283 - 10/17/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

how sure are you that it is the mind that produces the experience?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: Nobodhi]
    #7526770 - 10/17/07 06:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> how sure are you that it is the mind that produces the experience?

No more sure than I can be that the mind doesn't produce the experience.

I went from hard core atheist to an open minded anti-religion-agnostic thanks to DMT. My experiences could easily be nothing more than drug induced dreamlike states... but the experiences certainly opened my eyes to the possibility that there is more out there than what I experience in my day to day life.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineGrok
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: Seuss]
    #7528449 - 10/17/07 04:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Q: How can someone benefit from that experience? (referring to DMT/Ayahuasca)

A:...seems to me it gives real answers. Maybe you don't believe those answers, but I know a convincing argument when I see it. If anybody with argument could do to you what DMT does to you, why you'd embrace it in a hurry. - TM




Note that I am not a TM Kool-aid drinker but this quote pretty well sums up my own sentiments on DMT.

And I'll ask again - OC, have you ever used DMT?


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Case Against DMT Elves [Re: Grok]
    #7528533 - 10/17/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

As ayahusaca, not pure DMT. Moderately low dose. No elves or jaguars.


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