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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife
#7513609 - 10/13/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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One Law of Thermodynamics states: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed."
All-too-often, ignorant fluffernauts toss this out as some sort of evidence for an afterlife even though it has been debunked endlessly by the most basic of physics.
Take an old CD and smash it into a zillion pieces or run a powerful magnet over your hard drive. What happens? INFORMATION (not matter or energy) is lost.
When any animal dies, its memories and personality are lost, but the energy and matter remains the same. There is no loss of energy that travels to another magical realm.
End of story.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7513643 - 10/13/07 09:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Perhaps.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513656 - 10/13/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Elvish physics operates on different principles.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513708 - 10/13/07 09:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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some trippy thoughts for a saturday night:
whether or not our memories and personalities belong to something which is not our memories and personalities and they keep these as some kind of souvenir of our journey to hold on to or throw away if they don't like it
whether our information is contained in a closed loop or an open loop. if it is a closed loop, then if you take them away (death) then it's kind of like it never existed in the first place. If it's an open loop, then it was always a part of something greater connected to it and this is what our soul is?
i'll give an example to explain what I think a closed loop is like. let's say you have a concept: "god"
now we have this concept, and we can debate for centuries what it's attributes are. Or, we can deny the concept and it's attributes both. Kant would say we can't define a concept into being but that something exists if it has the attributes we recognize it as.
so our identities could be nothing more than a closed loop (a kind of logical abstraction to frame properties), and the death of ourselves is nothing but the release of a closed concept in a greater mind. If we are an open loop, then are information is not lost because our death could actually an increase in information - the difference being instead of ourselves being like an equation (2+2=4), we would be a sequence within the equation
im losing myself now, i need to start learning about math and matrices..
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7513719 - 10/13/07 09:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's a fairy not an elf.  The matter of fact is that I really have no idea about what happens to our information after we die but I'm still trying to find out what happens to it as long as we live.
Edited by MushroomTrip (10/13/07 10:17 PM)
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513745 - 10/13/07 09:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Your personality and what makes you "you", is all lost in transition. At that point what matters is the type of energy you are, positive or negative. I assume you know what to do in your lifetime to make your energy positive. It's good for the grand scheme of things.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513761 - 10/13/07 09:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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We would, in a sort of way, still be in the memories of our loved ones and those who hate us for what we were.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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Kinematics
coyote vision


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Jack Albertson]
#7513778 - 10/13/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Prove it.
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7513811 - 10/13/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: One Law of Thermodynamics states: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed."
All-too-often, ignorant fluffernauts toss this out as some sort of evidence for an afterlife even though it has been debunked endlessly by the most basic of physics.
Take an old CD and smash it into a zillion pieces or run a powerful magnet over your hard drive. What happens? INFORMATION (not matter or energy) is lost.
When any animal dies, its memories and personality are lost, but the energy and matter remains the same. There is no loss of energy that travels to another magical realm.
End of story.
i don't know for sure if there is an afterlife or not, as i don't think i could ever know for sure in this lifetime. it is certainly a possibility that there is no experience after death... no doubt about it. it is something i accept at times. but not all seeds flower, i also see it possible that some can ascend and some cannot. awareness can flower and ignorance can prevent this.
just want to know where i can find evidence that there is no afterlife.
yes or no question:
do none of us experience after death?
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7513821 - 10/13/07 10:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: One Law of Thermodynamics states: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed."
All-too-often, ignorant fluffernauts toss this out as some sort of evidence for an afterlife even though it has been debunked endlessly by the most basic of physics.
Take an old CD and smash it into a zillion pieces or run a powerful magnet over your hard drive. What happens? INFORMATION (not matter or energy) is lost.
When any animal dies, its memories and personality are lost, but the energy and matter remains the same. There is no loss of energy that travels to another magical realm.
End of story.
The language being used here indicates a belief that an eternal self, if it did exist, would be synonymous with the "memories and personality", a.k.a. the mind. Less psychologically mature people equate the self with the body. The more psychologically advanced discover the "soul" (or the witness that watches the mind) and identify the self with this soul. And beyond this is the "spirit", or the identification with being... and on.
So no, that's not the end of story, or the final word, as you commonly falsify.
Many of the posts in this forum are simply people's mile markers, and the coinciding need for the validation of the distance traveled, as if the destination has been reached. There is no destination, and no end-all-know-all.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (10/13/07 10:12 PM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7513830 - 10/13/07 10:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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One could even argue the other way around: Since the big bang the information was ever there - it only constantly reorganizes (itself). As energy, mass and information are connected over the time. Information is only the 'arrangement' of energy and mass which has to be interpreted. For us, it is difficult to interpret information once it has changed, transformed or reorganized.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: jonathanseagull]
#7513864 - 10/13/07 10:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Less psychologically mature people equate the self with the body.
ANd some people just make shit up with no supporting evidence in order to feel superior.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Jack Albertson]
#7513889 - 10/13/07 10:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ts727 said: Your personality and what makes you "you", is all lost in transition. At that point what matters is the type of energy you are, positive or negative. I assume you know what to do in your lifetime to make your energy positive. It's good for the grand scheme of things.
Do you think that the more complex we become, the more of an impact the state of our energy has? The more complex we are, the more responsibilities we hold? This must be why some people talk about "upholding creation"...
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7513900 - 10/13/07 10:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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What do you watch?? Time. Well if we are a spark and we are let loose on the grid traveling at the cosmic speed limit... Um... eternity as you approach the relative orientation of the physical. Pass that shit as you die and it never ends depending on your speed. Infinity and due amounts of fluff. But this is mine, not yours. I'll make it up as long as this is the business. You got a TV??
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: backfromthedead]
#7513907 - 10/13/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Watch what??
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: backfromthedead]
#7513911 - 10/13/07 10:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Novelty buddy!! Where does it come from??
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 1,480
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: BlueCoyote]
#7513915 - 10/13/07 10:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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sensitive are we?
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7513928 - 10/13/07 10:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator Edit: Restoring on-topic discussion by removing personalisms from thread. Everyone participating in this thread is advised to review the forum rules and guidelines, and to realize that we discuss the ideas that posters present, and not the identity and personal nature of the individuals posting. Personalisms, as well as responses to personalisms, are being removed - the guilty know who they are.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 08:57 AM)
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thedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513943 - 10/13/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: That's a fairy not an elf.  The matter of fact is that I really have no idea about what happens to our information after we die but I'm still trying to find out what happens to it as long as we live.
i like that response lol
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  "You all are just puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain..."" you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7513948 - 10/13/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator Edit: Restoring on-topic discussion by removing personalisms from thread. Everyone participating in this thread is advised to review the forum rules and guidelines, and to realize that we discuss the ideas that posters present, and not the identity and personal nature of the individuals posting. Personalisms, as well as responses to personalisms, are being removed - the guilty know who they are.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 08:52 AM)
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Rose]
#7513976 - 10/13/07 10:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't know. I have ideas. This is what makes me psyilly, for sure. Next chapter.
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Rose]
#7513981 - 10/13/07 10:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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it just appeared to me that Orgone was implying there's no possibility for an afterlife.. maybe i misread.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7513989 - 10/13/07 10:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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to quote him fairly, he said our memories and personalities don't remain after death. there was no conclusive statement about whether some kind of life or awareness continues.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7513997 - 10/13/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator Edit: Restoring on-topic discussion by removing personalisms from thread. Everyone participating in this thread is advised to review the forum rules and guidelines, and to realize that we discuss the ideas that posters present, and not the identity and personal nature of the individuals posting. Personalisms, as well as responses to personalisms, are being removed - the guilty know who they are.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 08:58 AM)
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Rose]
#7513998 - 10/13/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator Edit: Restoring on-topic discussion by removing personalisms from thread. Everyone participating in this thread is advised to review the forum rules and guidelines, and to realize that we discuss the ideas that posters present, and not the identity and personal nature of the individuals posting. Personalisms, as well as responses to personalisms, are being removed - the guilty know who they are.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:01 AM)
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Kinematics
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Rose]
#7514010 - 10/13/07 10:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator Edit: Restoring on-topic discussion by removing personalisms from thread. Everyone participating in this thread is advised to review the forum rules and guidelines, and to realize that we discuss the ideas that posters present, and not the identity and personal nature of the individuals posting. Personalisms, as well as responses to personalisms, are being removed - the guilty know who they are.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:04 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7514012 - 10/13/07 10:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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News flash: philosophy is not about one's beliefs.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7514013 - 10/13/07 10:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator Edit: Restoring on-topic discussion by removing personalisms from thread. Everyone participating in this thread is advised to review the forum rules and guidelines, and to realize that we discuss the ideas that posters present, and not the identity and personal nature of the individuals posting. Personalisms, as well as responses to personalisms, are being removed - the guilty know who they are.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:06 AM)
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Kinematics
coyote vision


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7514015 - 10/13/07 10:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well you know, the earth was flat until it was proven to be round. Then suddenly, it was spherical in shape. Crazy how that works.
Moderator edit: Removed quotation of removed personalism.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:07 AM)
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Rose]
#7514021 - 10/13/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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nobody could prove such a thing so what is the point in looking for proof? the same goes with looking for proof that there is no afterlife. two sides to the same coin to me.
Moderator edit: Removed personalisms.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:08 AM)
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7514033 - 10/13/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator edit: Removed personalisms. Speculation as to the reasons why the original poster created the thread is not discussion of the ideas presented within the thread.
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Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:11 AM)
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Rose]
#7514041 - 10/13/07 11:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Kinematics - the earth is physical so wtf are you talking about?
MushroomTrip - what is my belief?
Moderator edit: Removed personalisms.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:12 AM)
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7514045 - 10/13/07 11:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7514048 - 10/13/07 11:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was not talking about your belief. I was answering to your:
Quote:
does he believe there is no afterlife because there is no evidence?
His beliefs (as well as anybody else's) are irrelevant in a philosophical discussion.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 1,480
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7514064 - 10/13/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7514067 - 10/13/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator edit: Removed personalisms.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:13 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Kinematics]
#7514099 - 10/13/07 11:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nothing is wrong with debate, except when the beliefs of another are ridiculed.
A total misunderstanding of the Laws of Thermodynamics = a belief system or just plain old ignorance?
Let's all celebrate a lack of education and ability to utilize readily available knowledge.
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7514149 - 10/13/07 11:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Better consult the crystal skulls. Still counting?? Beliefs are rad when they are real. I woke up dead. Don't know if anybody understands that. This is the afterlife for some.
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Nipples
Liberty Chap


Registered: 10/10/07
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Loc: UK
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Rose]
#7514900 - 10/14/07 07:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: One Law of Thermodynamics states: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed."
All-too-often, ignorant fluffernauts toss this out as some sort of evidence for an afterlife even though it has been debunked endlessly by the most basic of physics.
Take an old CD and smash it into a zillion pieces or run a powerful magnet over your hard drive. What happens? INFORMATION (not matter or energy) is lost.
When any animal dies, its memories and personality are lost, but the energy and matter remains the same. There is no loss of energy that travels to another magical realm.
End of story.
When a law of thermodynamics talks of "energy", guess what? It's talking about thermodynamic energy. This has absolutely no bearing on "life energy", qi energy or anything else that people may mean when they use the word energy.
People who use irrelevant pieces of science to prove there is an afterlife are talking bollox.
It's like explaining the energy of a piece of music by considering the (physical) energy of the sound wave. Stupid.
Moderator edit: Removed personalisms.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:15 AM)
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Nipples
Liberty Chap


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Nipples]
#7514918 - 10/14/07 07:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Moderator edit: Removed personalisms.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/14/07 09:18 AM)
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Jack Albertson
bismillah rahmani rahim



Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 10,065
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Nipples]
#7514932 - 10/14/07 07:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i waited to long to reply.
-------------------- Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time TRANSCEND
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7514973 - 10/14/07 08:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Less psychologically mature people equate the self with the body.
ANd some people just make shit up with no supporting evidence in order to feel superior.
The whole of the science of psychology.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper




Registered: 01/25/03
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7514974 - 10/14/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Entropy?
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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fireworks_god
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7515041 - 10/14/07 08:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is just a notice that this forum is orientated towards discussing the ideas that users present, and not the identity or personal nature of the individuals presenting them... their past posting behavior, their alleged motivations in posting, etc. etc. etc. ad nausem. I've taken the time to remove these personalisms, so that the ideas for discussion may continue to be discussed; however, any subsequent engagement in discussing personalisms will not be tolerated.
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Nipples
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: fireworks_god]
#7515406 - 10/14/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I didn't mean to offend OrgoneConclusion, and I didn't realise it would be taken that way ... Sorry
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Nipples]
#7515599 - 10/14/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
One Law of Thermodynamics states: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed."
All-too-often, ignorant fluffernauts toss this out as some sort of evidence for an afterlife even though it has been debunked endlessly by the most basic of physics.
Take an old CD and smash it into a zillion pieces or run a powerful magnet over your hard drive. What happens? INFORMATION (not matter or energy) is lost.
When any animal dies, its memories and personality are lost, but the energy and matter remains the same. There is no loss of energy that travels to another magical realm.
End of story.
You're right, but it must also be recognised that information is a fundamental entity. The fundamental quantity information is a nonmaterial (mental) entity. It is not a property of matter, so that purely material processes are fundamentally precluded as sources of information. This has important implications when understanding how information comes about. I suggest you study up on imformation science, particularly werner gitts information theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Gitt
In any case I thought this would be a good opportunity to post an argumentment that does scientifically show a need for a creator with thermodynamics. Here is part of an arguement.
Quote:
One of the discoveries you will make about the outside world is that every action creates an equal reaction. This is newtons third law of motion. Another way of saying it is that events do not occur without a cause. Nothing moves without being first pushed or pulled or affected first. This is not opinion, but fact firmly supported by everything so far, and also every single empirical observation that's ever been made.
Another thing you might find in the outside world is something called the laws of thermodynamics. Thermodynamics is the study of the energy that atoms and molecules have as they interact with each other. There are three major rules that all things must obey regarding thermodynamics. These can be described in very complex terms or very simple terms .Here they are:
1st law says: energy can be neither created nor destroyed. 2nd law says: the entropy of the universe is always increasing. 3nd law says: the average temperature of all matter can never reach zero.
Entropy by the way, is a measure of the unavailability of a system’s energy to do work.
When any physical thing interacts with another, the 1st law of thermodynamics says energy is never lost and never created. Even when a fire is put out or something explodes.The total energy of the universe remains the same. You can never get more than you start with.
Th second law says entropy is always growing. This can be stated other ways, like the energy available to do work, is always decreasing. Or, some of the energy put into process is lost to friction. This means no perpetual motion machines. All things go from an ordered state to a disordered state, and from complex organization to complete regularity.
It's as if all the energy in the universe were in an hour glass, so that as time passes the energy is used and falls into the bottom of the hourglass, where it becomes less useful, or useless. All of the energy in the universe is becoming unavailable to do work ever again. When it's used up, it's all over. This is the second law of thermodynamics, and it is the most rigorously tested law in all of science.
There are two "exceptions" to the second law though. The first one is life. If the forces behind the second law had their way, our bodies would deteriorate within a short time. But life has a way to overcome this problem. It's as if life is walking up an escalator, and the 2nd law drags you down just as it's stepping up. How does life delay a fundamental law of the universe? It doesn't actually.
You and your environment decay at a certain rate. But since you are alive you can eat part of your environment. As a result that piece of food is decayed very rapidly, and you remain less degraded.
How does life channel the energy found in food into the specific functions of maintaining it's delicate and intricate structures? A major part of any living cell is it's blueprint, it's DNA. These blueprints are designs for the cellular machinery which is designed so it can acquire energy from food, carry on the functions of life, and duplicate itself over and over again. It works because it makes a path of less resistance making probable what would otherwise be impossible.
The degradation of information bearing systems such as DNA and the 2nd law are related. The link to how the 2nd law applies to energy and information is found in thermodynamic probability, a field pioneered by Ludwig Boltzmann in 1896 and confirmed by Max Plank in 1912. Modern statistical thermodynamics is used to clearly show that information is subject to the same degrading force that constantly increases the amount of entropy in our universe.
The second "exception" to the 2nd law of thermodynamics is the only way to make progress up the escalator. Things can only be more organized by intention. Intelligence and the ability to apply force are required to assemble a computer for instance, or a submarine, or a watch.
Some people think that life can increase it's complexity on it's own without intelligent direction.And although no one has ever seen it happen, and even though it would be a violation of the second law, alot of people claim it's a fact regardless.
The third law of thermodynamics really doesn't matter at this point.
we need one more thing now before we can use the first two laws of thermodynamics. it's a consequence of time. It's the possibility for beginnings and endings. When you started this book, you knew that it would end, and your own life will end someday.
In fact, all complexity will "end" eventually. Even the universe will end at some point. If things continue on as they have the entropy in the universe will reach it's maximum level and no energy will be left to do work. The stars will burn out, all life will die, and the average temperature will be very close to absolute zero. The second law is our guarantee of utter and complete demise.
Also, because a thing is degrading toward and end not only implies there was a beginning, it necessitates one. Because the energy available to do work decreases with time, and since the total amount of energy to do work cannot exceed the amount available the furthest one can extrapolate back in time is the point where they were equal. This is the earliest possible date. That is, a beginning. We can also say that the universe needed an original source of motion. We can see that an original source of kinetic energy was required because
1. the universe exists. 2. Events occur within the universe. 3. All events require that something caused them.
Therefore something started all motion in the first place. If anything has motion, an original mover must have existed.
Imagine you were riding your bike somewhere and there was a great big freight train blocking the road as far as you can see, all the way to the left, and all the way to the right. The train seems endless. But you would rightly assume that the train is not infinitely long, and at some point has an end. The 2nd law prohibits perpetual motion machines so the train cannot go on moving forever either.
Also, each car is being pulled by the one in front of it. No car moves unless it was pulled. You would rightly assume further that there is an engine car which is different from the other cars, the original mover. You determine that it pulled the first car which pulled the second etc.
The universe is very much like a machine that is in motion. It's laws of operation tell us that it's in motion. It cannot be perpetual, therefore it hasn't been around forever and someday will stop. Every atom of our universe is rubbing and pulling and bumping against each other. And since nothing moves until a force is placed on it, the original force must have begun the cascade of movement that we see today.
Now to discuss the presence of order and complexity. A very similar argument can be used to show that because complexity is decreasing with time, it must have started higher to begin with. Now remember that order can only come from intelligence able to direct force.
Some may say that life can do the job without the intelligence by evolution. But even if this were possible, who would have created the first life form or the low levels of chemical entropy throughout the universe? Our universe must have had an original designer. Something to reduce entropy and increase complexity.
That the entropy can decrease on it's own is quite impossible. As a result it will never happen, and it never has.Unless that is, you believe in miracles.
The fact that the universe exists and that life exists is nothing short of a miracle. A miracle is something that happens even though it's physically impossible. Is that a contradiction? No , here's why. If we know that low entropy systems like life can never be created by the universe but we know both things exist, then something besides our universe must be responsible.
Motion and complexity exist, and the universe cannot provide either one. But rather, it's losing complexity and randomizing all motion. Not only is the universe unable to sustain itself, it could never have even begun by itself. Our universe is unable to stand alone, and something else must exist. There is a word for this .
It's called the supernatural.
The very things that necessitate the existence of the supernatural can tell us something about it. If we look back we'll see that something outside of our universe was responsible for decreasing entropy. Something had to have worked in the opposite direction of the second law to establish higher degrees of complexity. Life and large amounts of energy available to do work, could not have spontaneously appeared in our universe without outside help. Something outside of the universe must have been responsible for their presence originally.
Complexity is a state of low entropy and high specific order. In contrast, nature forces all things toward regularity, like the the molecules of a crystal, or towards disorder as seen in molecules of gas. This kind of regularity btw is the opposite of complexity and contains little or no information.
The second thing we know of the supernatural is that something was necessary to get things moving in our universe. The "prime mover" must be there somehow.
With what's been discussed so far we can't really talk about other things like whether there's a realm beyond that one, or whether the place is big or small or whether size or time or dimension even matter.The only thing that can be discussed at this point is the part of the supernatural which gave our universe order and complexity. So what is the nature of that thing? Well for one it exists, and that it never needed to be started, because if not, then the thing which started it is the thing which didn't need to be started. Either way, there's something supernatural which has always existed. we can know that for sure because we know that we exist and that something started us. That thing would be in the same spot we're in that is, if it wasn't inherently eternal.
Something must ultimately be responsible for the condition and existence of everything else. If you don't agree, try imagining another scenario. In order to deviate from the logical path we're on, you would have to imagine that one or more of the laws of the physical universe was not always the way it is now. (contrary to what all modern scientific knowledge is based upon). Or you could imagine that an outside realm could spontaneously generate a decaying universe like ours without intention, being eternal itself. But this scenario is a kind of super universal pantheism which cannot fulfill the requirements of existence that the universe needs. It's needs not just force, but complexity donated as well. This requires an intelligence with the ability to direct force.
Something supernatural must have started our universe and designed systems of high complexity. We know that this is valid because the 1st law of thermodynamics states that in our universe energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So the source for energy in moving things must be supernatural.
According to modern science, it turns out that matter and energy are interchangeable : E=mc2 . They're two sides of the same coin. This has implications when we talk about what a prime mover is. It means that energy in the form of motion (kinetic energy) was provided by an outside source. But what about the matter that was being moved? Because matter and energy are so similar we can see the issue has already been addressed. If the energy for motion must have come from the supernatural then the energy for matter must have too. That is, the original provider of all energy.
If a thing provides the energy for the creation and motion of all other things, that thing is called all powerful because it must be the ultimate source for all energy regardless of what form that energy takes. If something provides the energy so that all other things can exist, then it is the foundation of all that exists. It is the foundation of all existence and it is self sustaining therefore it is eternal.
complex organization can only come from intelligent design. Left to themselves all things fall apart. Only an intellect can reverse the process through intentional construction. Not one incident of spontaneous generation of a complex organized system has never been seen. for good reason. It's impossible.
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TheCow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7515754 - 10/14/07 01:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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the girlies are free cause the crack costs money
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: TheCow]
#7515924 - 10/14/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I just did an exam on this very subject, so I'm going to flex my knowledge a little.
Quote:
1. the universe exists. 2. Events occur within the universe. 3. All events require that something caused them.
This is commonly refered to as the "Kalam Argument" and is the most well known cosmological argument for God's existence. The third part of the premise is usually stated as "the only thing that could have set things in motion is God". There are many opinions about this, from Hume to Kant to St. Thomas Aquinas. There are some good arguments for and against this.
David Hume argues that we can imagine something in our minds which appears to have no cause, it just pops into our minds from nowhere. Counter: We can picture this but it's simply the title we give the image. In reality it is impossible for us to actually contemplate something coming into being without a cause.
An argument for the Universe having a beginning comes from the concept of Infinity... If there is no beginning, there have been an infinite series of past events. But to say that events can be added to infinity (as in, the present) is self-contradictory. Can we then say there is a defined set of things (past events)? Every event has a possible predescesor but this doesn't entail that the Universe never began.
Did something supernatural, a personal being with a mind, really have to cause this beginning? There are many arguments for and against this.
God doesn't necessarily have to be a personal being, if personal beings are all material objects. Material beings are always made up of the Universe and so they can't be the cause. This is a weak argument and I personally think if there is a God he would be both immanent and transcendant.
We can explain the Universe by scientific explanation by appealing to how the laws of the material universe govern creation, but this wouldn't explain WHY those laws are the given laws. Or we can explain it by appealing to personal explanation (free will). Or maybe it's both, like I said - immanent and transcendent. As john said, E=MC2 which means energy and matter are interchangeable.
One problem we have to address however is whether the world actually exists in the first place for it to have a creator. Bertrand Russel would say we don't need to ask "why", it just is.
Classical philosophers on the other hand such as St. Thomas Aquinas of the Christian tradition or Maimonides of the Jewish tradition would argue that our situation forces us to ask "why something rather than nothing?"
What do we mean when we say that something exists? It could be argued that to say that "God (a supernatural being) exists" is a meaningless statement. Does "exist" really tell us anything about God? Immanuel Kant says that statements of existence are actually statements of number. Which is to say, to say that "EternalCowabunga Exists" is to say there is at least one EternalCowabunga and his attributes existing in actuality.
The problem as I see it, is that since this supernatural being is beyond us, we can't really know if we are seeing him and then defining him, or defining him and then seeing him as a result. It's important to make it clear what this supernatural being's attributes are. Is it like a machine, is it like a living organism, can it be anything at all like the creation it has become or being?
Descartes argues that the concept of God is something being the perfection of existence - the essence of existence. To say "God exists" is to say "existence exists" - or we could simplify it even more into just "existence". The philosopher Anselm says that which nothing greater can be conceived exists since it is more perfect to exist than not to exist. (Aquinas: god is infinite, incomprehensible, entirely simple)
Inwagen, another philosopher, continues this line of thought by saying that a perfect being must exist necessarily because a perfect being possesses all of its perfections essentially - it is essentially perfect - existence is perfect because it exists necessarily and it is more perfect to exist than to not exist.
To exist necessarily would mean it is impossible not to exist by it's very nature. We can say something exists either contingently or necessarily. "I am typing on this keyboard" - this is only contingently true because I don't HAVE to be typing on the keyboard. Does God (existence) HAVE to exist?
So, the argument is that, since God contains all perfections in itself by definition, it would be illogical to say that God doesn't exist because the concept of God implies that his nature is existence itself, and existence is a kind of perfection because it is so complete. This leads us into the design arguments wherein philosophers try and prove why the Universe is perfect, for reasons such as the fact that everything is perfectly dependent on everything else or the temporal order of everything.
All this still doesn't prove whether the definition of God applies to reality. Kant said we can't define something into existence and this is what these philosophers are doing when they say that the concept of God necessarily implies that he exists.
Kant argues that we don't need this concept of God because it doesn't add anything. And this is partly true I think, it doesn't add anything. This is because God, or the supernatural being, could be seen as being the negative of everything this reality is - (non-corporeal, timeless, spaceless, etc). On the other hand, a creator is seen as something creating positive attributes, and order is something that is positively present when we look for it. How can we intuit the supernatural if it is the opposite of everything material?
There are a few ways.
1) We can't see the minds, egos, selves of other people because they are immaterial - we perceive these immaterial things through the body, which implies there is something both immanent and transcendent about our reality
2) Everything apart from God is instrinsically dependent - apprehending this is like apprehending God
3) hard to characterize the supernatural does not mean lack of proof. The experience is ineffable
4) experience of the mystics
Some counters to these arguments: 1) people can still be seen by bodies, we can't see God's body 2) we can't be sure if dependence is an intrinsic property of things
Hume even goes to say that God, even if there is a supernatural creator, is not necessarily omnipotent or infinite. We should not postulate more than is necessary to reach a given effect (Occam's Razor). He argues that if we accept one God, why not several deities? How do we know the Universe isn't so much like a clock or a machine but a living organism? We can see many signs of disorder in the Universe.
Even if the creator were like a machine, this really could just mean that the creator is orderly - but what is responsible for that order? It would be an infinite regress - unless you accept Aquinas mode of logic which says God is the most simple thing there is and order is just one of these perfect simplicities inherent in the nature of God.
That's all I'm going to write about now, but I'd be happy to debate this further.
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Edited by EternalCowabunga (10/14/07 02:06 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7516033 - 10/14/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: One Law of Thermodynamics states: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed."
All-too-often, ignorant fluffernauts toss this out as some sort of evidence for an afterlife even though it has been debunked endlessly by the most basic of physics.
Take an old CD and smash it into a zillion pieces or run a powerful magnet over your hard drive. What happens? INFORMATION (not matter or energy) is lost.
When any animal dies, its memories and personality are lost, but the energy and matter remains the same. There is no loss of energy that travels to another magical realm.
End of story.
It's a story that seems to work just fine. Nothing else needed. So maybe that's all there is.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/14/07 02:35 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7516389 - 10/14/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I suggest you study up on imformation science,
As an engineer who created an AI milestone in game theory and application, I will be sure to 'study up'.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7516419 - 10/14/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I just did an exam on this very subject, so I'm going to flex my knowledge a little.
Quote:
1. the universe exists. 2. Events occur within the universe. 3. All events require that something caused them.
This is commonly refered to as the "Kalam Argument" and is the most well known cosmological argument for God's existence. The third part of the premise is usually stated as "the only thing that could have set things in motion is God". There are many opinions about this, from Hume to Kant to St. Thomas Aquinas. There are some good arguments for and against this.
David Hume argues that we can imagine something in our minds which appears to have no cause, it just pops into our minds from nowhere. Counter: We can picture this but it's simply the title we give the image. In reality it is impossible for us to actually contemplate something coming into being without a cause.
An argument for the Universe having a beginning comes from the concept of Infinity... If there is no beginning, there have been an infinite series of past events. But to say that events can be added to infinity (as in, the present) is self-contradictory. Can we then say there is a defined set of things (past events)? Every event has a possible predescesor but this doesn't entail that the Universe never began.
Did something supernatural, a personal being with a mind, really have to cause this beginning? There are many arguments for and against this.
God doesn't necessarily have to be a personal being, if personal beings are all material objects. Material beings are always made up of the Universe and so they can't be the cause. This is a weak argument and I personally think if there is a God he would be both immanent and transcendant.
We can explain the Universe by scientific explanation by appealing to how the laws of the material universe govern creation, but this wouldn't explain WHY those laws are the given laws. Or we can explain it by appealing to personal explanation (free will). Or maybe it's both, like I said - immanent and transcendent. As john said, E=MC2 which means energy and matter are interchangeable.
One problem we have to address however is whether the world actually exists in the first place for it to have a creator. Bertrand Russel would say we don't need to ask "why", it just is.
Classical philosophers on the other hand such as St. Thomas Aquinas of the Christian tradition or Maimonides of the Jewish tradition would argue that our situation forces us to ask "why something rather than nothing?"
What do we mean when we say that something exists? It could be argued that to say that "God (a supernatural being) exists" is a meaningless statement. Does "exist" really tell us anything about God? Immanuel Kant says that statements of existence are actually statements of number. Which is to say, to say that "EternalCowabunga Exists" is to say there is at least one EternalCowabunga and his attributes existing in actuality.
The problem as I see it, is that since this supernatural being is beyond us, we can't really know if we are seeing him and then defining him, or defining him and then seeing him as a result. It's important to make it clear what this supernatural being's attributes are. Is it like a machine, is it like a living organism, can it be anything at all like the creation it has become or being?
Descartes argues that the concept of God is something being the perfection of existence - the essence of existence. To say "God exists" is to say "existence exists" - or we could simplify it even more into just "existence". The philosopher Anselm says that which nothing greater can be conceived exists since it is more perfect to exist than not to exist. (Aquinas: god is infinite, incomprehensible, entirely simple)
Inwagen, another philosopher, continues this line of thought by saying that a perfect being must exist necessarily because a perfect being possesses all of its perfections essentially - it is essentially perfect - existence is perfect because it exists necessarily and it is more perfect to exist than to not exist.
To exist necessarily would mean it is impossible not to exist by it's very nature. We can say something exists either contingently or necessarily. "I am typing on this keyboard" - this is only contingently true because I don't HAVE to be typing on the keyboard. Does God (existence) HAVE to exist?
So, the argument is that, since God contains all perfections in itself by definition, it would be illogical to say that God doesn't exist because the concept of God implies that his nature is existence itself, and existence is a kind of perfection because it is so complete. This leads us into the design arguments wherein philosophers try and prove why the Universe is perfect, for reasons such as the fact that everything is perfectly dependent on everything else or the temporal order of everything.
All this still doesn't prove whether the definition of God applies to reality. Kant said we can't define something into existence and this is what these philosophers are doing when they say that the concept of God necessarily implies that he exists.
Kant argues that we don't need this concept of God because it doesn't add anything. And this is partly true I think, it doesn't add anything. This is because God, or the supernatural being, could be seen as being the negative of everything this reality is - (non-corporeal, timeless, spaceless, etc). On the other hand, a creator is seen as something creating positive attributes, and order is something that is positively present when we look for it. How can we intuit the supernatural if it is the opposite of everything material?
There are a few ways.
1) We can't see the minds, egos, selves of other people because they are immaterial - we perceive these immaterial things through the body, which implies there is something both immanent and transcendent about our reality
2) Everything apart from God is instrinsically dependent - apprehending this is like apprehending God
3) hard to characterize the supernatural does not mean lack of proof. The experience is ineffable
4) experience of the mystics
Some counters to these arguments: 1) people can still be seen by bodies, we can't see God's body 2) we can't be sure if dependence is an intrinsic property of things
Hume even goes to say that God, even if there is a supernatural creator, is not necessarily omnipotent or infinite. We should not postulate more than is necessary to reach a given effect (Occam's Razor). He argues that if we accept one God, why not several deities? How do we know the Universe isn't so much like a clock or a machine but a living organism? We can see many signs of disorder in the Universe.
Even if the creator were like a machine, this really could just mean that the creator is orderly - but what is responsible for that order? It would be an infinite regress - unless you accept Aquinas mode of logic which says God is the most simple thing there is and order is just one of these perfect simplicities inherent in the nature of God.
That's all I'm going to write about now, but I'd be happy to debate this further.
For me there's no debate. The answer is that nobody knows (unanswerable) and so it is not an important question IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7516429 - 10/14/07 04:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
1. the universe exists. 2. Events occur within the universe. 3. All events require that something caused them.
So "something" automatically equals God? This is a huge leap of illogic, IMO.
What about a unique event, such as the Big Bang?
Just because this unique event has not reoccurred, and created more somethings from "nothing," does not mean that a higher power was responsible for all Life on this planet.
Quote:
E=MC2 which means energy and matter are interchangeable.
Not quite. It means that we can compare mass and energy using this formula. Star Trek transporter evidence to the contrary, we are not accelerating mass times the speed of light to transform it into energy.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7516438 - 10/14/07 04:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Your argument for a creator is a tired old one dressed up with Newtonian physics.
When we go back in time far enough there comes a point of ignorance. Replacing "We don't know," with "God" or "Creator" tells us nothing.
What is a "Creator"? That which started the universe. This is very circular and adds not the slightest bit of knowledge.
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7516443 - 10/14/07 04:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, then we must ask the question "what created the Creator"? If everything which exists MUST have an original cause, then the existence of an original Creator does not make sense.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Veritas]
#7516462 - 10/14/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree Icelander, I don't think there is any way we can know. At the end of my post I originally said "so in conclusion we could go on forever but we dont know shit about the supernatural" but I thought jonathan may have wanted to ask me about some of the ideas I presented so I edited it.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Veritas]
#7516468 - 10/14/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Turtles all the way down?
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Veritas


Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7516472 - 10/14/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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'zactly.
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7516482 - 10/14/07 04:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I agree Icelander, I don't think there is any way we can know. At the end of my post I originally said "so in conclusion we could go on forever but we dont know shit about the supernatural" but I thought jonathan may have wanted to ask me about some of the ideas I presented so I edited it.
A lot of this goes on around here. IMO we rarely ask important and answerable philosophical and spiritual questions in favor of this stuff.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Nipples
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7516497 - 10/14/07 04:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The trouble with the story is it uses laws of thermodynamics to draw conclusions about life and the afterlife.
The theory of thermodynamics: it's a theory that deals with thermodynamics. You can't use thermodynamics to predict the motions of the planets, to explain tactics in chess, to describe the beauty of a piece of music or to prove or disprove the existence of an afterlife.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Nipples]
#7518462 - 10/15/07 06:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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there's a reason why they're called the LAWS of thermodynamics. I'll get back to this later.
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psyka
Praetorian


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7518644 - 10/15/07 08:16 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have to say Eternal Cowabunga, thats some heavy thinking and rather impressive you've seen that phenomena rely on conditions in order for it to emerge. However, I would say that if a God was the creator of all things, then why make everything impermanent, changing, and thus subject to dissatisfaction, especially if he himself is permanent and unchanging? To suggest that God is impermanent and changing is to imply there is no state of God at all 
The beginning is not fathomable, and I'm highly suspect that the Big Bang was the absolute beginning. Perhaps, it was the beginning to the current state of this known Universe, however I do not believe it was the first or only Big Bang to occur. Rather, I believe the Universe is continually born and dying just like everything else in existence.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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BlueCoyote
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Veritas]
#7518928 - 10/15/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Veritas said: Yes, then we must ask the question "what created the Creator"? If everything which exists MUST have an original cause, then the existence of an original Creator does not make sense.
The cause and creation thingy only works in linear time (after the big bang). As we all know (aeh or believe), in singularity, time is not linear, soooo it must not necessarily even be the past, if we look behind the big bang
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: psyka]
#7519679 - 10/15/07 02:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: I have to say Eternal Cowabunga, thats some heavy thinking and rather impressive you've seen that phenomena rely on conditions in order for it to emerge. However, I would say that if a God was the creator of all things, then why make everything impermanent, changing, and thus subject to dissatisfaction, especially if he himself is permanent and unchanging? To suggest that God is impermanent and changing is to imply there is no state of God at all 
The beginning is not fathomable, and I'm highly suspect that the Big Bang was the absolute beginning. Perhaps, it was the beginning to the current state of this known Universe, however I do not believe it was the first or only Big Bang to occur. Rather, I believe the Universe is continually born and dying just like everything else in existence.
I was presenting ideas that I've studied in my philosophy course, I wasn't actually giving my opinion. I don't think it's really possible to know how it began since we weren't there.
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7519703 - 10/15/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who's we white man? I certainly was there, just not in this form. The answer to this question, I have, unfortunately, forgotten.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: psyka]
#7520196 - 10/15/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said:however I do not believe it was the first or only Big Bang to occur. Rather, I believe the Universe is continually born and dying just like everything else in existence.
good idea
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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onlynow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7520202 - 10/15/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Who's we white man? I certainly was there, just not in this form. The answer to this question, I have, unfortunately, forgotten.
oh common, surely you have remembered at times?
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7520982 - 10/15/07 08:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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David Hume argues that we can imagine something in our minds which appears to have no cause, it just pops into our minds from nowhere.
This type of arguement depends upon the mind as a valid tool to begin with. Nevertheless, it it granted that ultimately there is a limit to our knowledge of the world around us. The arguement must start, as any arguement must, with the premise that our minds are valid tools to begin with. Ultimately the argument I used depends upon Spiritual evidence. It has to.
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Counter: We can picture this but it's simply the title we give the image. In reality it is impossible for us to actually contemplate something coming into being without a cause.
When you use the word "coming" this necessitates a cause. You've already necessitated it by your previous logical premise, that it came. It is a product of a mind that uses logic. It is unavoidable, and there is no alternative. But the logic fits with what we know about the outside world. There is no schism. We never chose the spectrum of light that our eyes perceive. It makes no sense to say that our minds made it up to make sense of the world. That would require a sentience before there was a sentience.
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An argument for the Universe having a beginning comes from the concept of Infinity... If there is no beginning, there have been an infinite series of past events. But to say that events can be added to infinity (as in, the present) is self-contradictory. Can we then say there is a defined set of things (past events)? Every event has a possible predescesor but this doesn't entail that the Universe never began.
This arguement does not adequately adress the physical evidence of our universe. Every event in the physical universe does not have a "possible" predecessor, it must have a predecessor. This is according to everything we know about the natural universe. It is inescapable from time, a natural consequence.
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We can explain the Universe by scientific explanation by appealing to how the laws of the material universe govern creation, but this wouldn't explain WHY those laws are the given laws. Or we can explain it by appealing to personal explanation (free will). Or maybe it's both, like I said - immanent and transcendent. As john said, E=MC2 which means energy and matter are interchangeable.
It's not neccesary to explain ultimately why the laws of the universe are the given laws. I don't understand what your arguement might be concerning free will.
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One problem we have to address however is whether the world actually exists in the first place for it to have a creator. Bertrand Russel would say we don't need to ask "why", it just is.
It can be said to exist for very good reason. Existence is that which is, and we know the Universe is, therefore it exists.
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The problem as I see it, is that since this supernatural being is beyond us, we can't really know if we are seeing him and then defining him, or defining him and then seeing him as a result. It's important to make it clear what this supernatural being's attributes are. Is it like a machine, is it like a living organism, can it be anything at all like the creation it has become or being?
Your questions would find answers if you actually looked at the evidence rather than just philosophical speculation. If we can perceive God, then why can't we determine his nature? Isn't perceiving God in itself require us to perceive his nature, whether actual or merely intended ? I believe so. You really seem to be begging the question.
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Kant argues that we don't need this concept of God because it doesn't add anything. And this is partly true I think, it doesn't add anything. This is because God, or the supernatural being, could be seen as being the negative of everything this reality is - (non-corporeal, timeless, spaceless, etc). On the other hand, a creator is seen as something creating positive attributes, and order is something that is positively present when we look for it. How can we intuit the supernatural if it is the opposite of everything material?
can you prove that God can't exist inside of time and outside of time at once? I think not. In a universe that depends upon a creator, it's time and material essence must depend upon him. But by the same token it must also be required that he is outside of time, or else he would depnd upon time, and God cannot depend upon anything.
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To exist necessarily would mean it is impossible not to exist by it's very nature. We can say something exists either contingently or necessarily. "I am typing on this keyboard" - this is only contingently true because I don't HAVE to be typing on the keyboard. Does God (existence) HAVE to exist?
Yes, existence requires existence...
If the physical universe depends upon God we can't say exactly how, just like we can't say why the laws of the universe are the given laws. But it's really not necessary.
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2) Everything apart from God is instrinsically dependent - apprehending this is like apprehending God
everything God created, but not necessary directly apprehending, like for instance rather in the form of an allegory.
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Hume even goes to say that God, even if there is a supernatural creator, is not necessarily omnipotent or infinite.
There are other routes to determine God's omnipotence etc., starting with differnet place in logic. But even if the being that created this world did not have those attributes, there must have necessarily been an eternal omnipotent God ultimately.
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unless you accept Aquinas mode of logic which says God is the most simple thing there is and order is just one of these perfect simplicities inherent in the nature of God.
But then what about complexity? How could certain complexities exist without a complex being?
I know I haven't answered everything in your post, but I felt to give it a reponse.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/15/07 09:16 PM)
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7521056 - 10/15/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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veritas:
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So "something" automatically equals God? This is a huge leap of illogic, IMO.
I never said that. But you haven't seen the whole portion of my arguement. Nevertheless, I think I posted enough to show that the creation of the universe requires an intelligence able to direct force.
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QQuote:
uote: E=MC2 which means energy and matter are interchangeable.
Not quite. It means that we can compare mass and energy using this formula. Star Trek transporter evidence to the contrary, we are not accelerating mass times the speed of light to transform it into energy. 
If you said this to a physicist, he would be the one laughing at you. The very implecation of special reletivity implies that mass has an associated energy and energy has an associated mass.
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The Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy says that the sum total of mass and energy in the Universe is constant. Mass can be converted into energy and energy can be converted into mass. However, the loss of one will be exactly balanced by the creation of the other.
- This law was developed to take into consideration the mass-energy conversions that occur in nuclear processes. - Mass and energy do not undergo conversions during the more traditional processes that take place in a chemistry lab.
The need for this law only became obvious after Einstein determined that matter and energy were interchangeable. That idea is the core concept of nuclear processes and is derived from the equation.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7521213 - 10/15/07 09:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not going to go through all that jon, but a lot of your arguments are ones I already presented and I agree that they're logical..
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If we can perceive God, then why can't we determine his nature?
Possibly because the very concept of God is that it is greater than our comprehension of it. How could we be sure that we weren't personifying it or that our definitions were leading us in the wrong direction. For instance, the idea of the creator being intelligent - is this statement any more meaningful than saying the creator is the color blue? I just don't know.
Complexity could be an illusion, maybe it doesn't exist at all. Maybe everything is really, really simple and it's us who complicate it.
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If the physical universe depends upon God we can't say exactly how, just like we can't say why the laws of the universe are the given laws. But it's really not necessary.
I agree, but if we're going to have a concept of God, I think it's important to know it's attributes and how it operates. Otherwise the knowledge of that thing isn't giving us any more information - we could just say "the physical universe depends on something we don't understand."
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onlynow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7521275 - 10/15/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Possibly because the very concept of God is that it is greater than our comprehension of it.

one uses the mind to determine. the whole of existence cannot be contained within mind. never.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7521692 - 10/15/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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one uses the mind to determine. the whole of existence cannot be contained within mind. never.
That's really not an issue. It's a given that we cannot comprehend all the fullness of God in his eternal splendor. But that does not mean we cannot perceive anything about God. If we can perceive anything, then we must by that same token perceive a portion of his attributes.
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7521758 - 10/15/07 11:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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perception and determining are two different things, and never did I say we can't perceive His Holiness Him.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7521926 - 10/16/07 01:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jonathan_206 said:
Quote:
one uses the mind to determine. the whole of existence cannot be contained within mind. never.
That's really not an issue. It's a given that we cannot comprehend all the fullness of God in his eternal splendor. But that does not mean we cannot perceive anything about God. If we can perceive anything, then we must by that same token perceive a portion of his attributes.
And if we can't fully perceive and GRASP the ENTIRE notion of Holiness, then whatever definition we might try to settle regarding it, would be a distorted one. This is exactly why we should hold ourselves from giving it names and attributes, because it could never be in tune with what it really is. So why name it god and give it different attributes, when in fact it could be something else, far away from what we might think? Why should we believe that "it/he" gave us life and expects something from us, when the only being that gather these attributes are other human beings? Doesn't it sound a little weird? 
What might seem to be a face, can, in reality, two human hands.

I think that this analogy can be applied in many other domains.  I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7522517 - 10/16/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
onlynow said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Who's we white man? I certainly was there, just not in this form. The answer to this question, I have, unfortunately, forgotten.
oh common, surely you have remembered at times?
True, but I forget again right away.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7522520 - 10/16/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that this analogy can be applied in many other domains.  I'll let you draw your own conclusions. 
Oh yes! Yes, indeed!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7523320 - 10/16/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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And if we can't fully perceive and GRASP the ENTIRE notion of Holiness, then whatever definition we might try to settle regarding it, would be a distorted one.
Not necessarily at all. That's not accurate. For instance, you can know some attributes of a person, but do we know all that goes on within the mind of an individual? We don't know all of the workings of their body, their mind or perceive all the fullness of their metaphysical essence in every detail. But we can know enough to say, so and so is very kind. Or so and so has a great sense of justice. Or so and so is very graceful. We can perceive the basic image of a person, and we can understand their attributes because we are in the same likeness.
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So why name it god and give it different attributes, when in fact it could be something else, far away from what we might think? Why should we believe that "it/he" gave us life and expects something from us, when the only being that gather these attributes are other human beings? Doesn't it sound a little weird? 
It only sounds weird if you do not accept the knowledge of God that has been given to us. If it were only for our own striving, without having received knowledge from God, then we would be lost in try to understand who God is.
But it makes perfect sense if you consider that God created us in his own likeness.
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onlynow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7523342 - 10/16/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jonathan_206 said:But it makes perfect sense if you consider that God created us in his own likeness.
god likes me more than you, he made me more like him. sorry, maybe next life
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7523426 - 10/16/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not necessarily at all. That's not accurate.
Not necessarily at all?  Well, then let's let's get to the bottom of it, shall we?
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For instance, you can know some attributes of a person, but do we know all that goes on within the mind of an individual? We don't know all of the workings of their body, their mind or perceive all the fullness of their metaphysical essence in every detail. But we can know enough to say, so and so is very kind. Or so and so has a great sense of justice. Or so and so is very graceful. We can perceive the basic image of a person, and we can understand their attributes because we are in the same likeness.
So an so... that one individual we're talking about to be kind, shows signs of existence. As opposed to god. That individual had a body, we see him moving, interacting with his surroundings which have as effect producing changes. He picks up a glass full of water, the glass in now in his hand, going to his mouth, we see his lips moving and the water disappearing from the glass. Now that's sign of existence. As for judging his kindness everything is relative. The same individual can be judged by a person as being very kind and by another as being mean. And maybe by a third person as being insane. Which is the truth? The truth is that each of those persons see only aspects of that guy's personality and judge them compared to what appeals to them or not. So allow me to point to you that through this example you only proved me right. How can we be able to establish what "god" is or even if there is such a god, and having the attributes one might thing god has, when we fail big style on doing that with people? Who at least show indubitable signs of existence? 
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It only sounds weird if you do not accept the knowledge of God that has been given to us. If it were only for our own striving, without having received knowledge from God, then we would be lost in try to understand who God is.
And again, who is god? What are his teachings? Until now, the only reliable evidence that we have i that some people wrote some words in the name of god. Noe tell me, if I were to give you a list with detailed instructions on how it's best to live your life and tell you that god said so, and that it is know that the list contains the most important knowledge in the world, would you do what that list says? I would find it as an insult towards my intelligence. 
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But it makes perfect sense if you consider that God created us in his own likeness.
If it makes perfect sense, how come that you or anybody else trying to prove that "sense" fails miserably?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ego Death
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7523606 - 10/16/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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some people just make shit up with no supporting evidence in order to feel superior
Yeah, and some people steal other peoples ideas and try to debunk them to feel superior.
The evidence was that energy is never lost - this is accepted. Theres also no doubt that humans have energy - so wheres the problem? You havn't stated ANY evidence for you theory that it is not possible that human energy is transfered.
Moderator edit: Removed personalisms.
Edited by fireworks_god (10/16/07 02:55 PM)
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Ego Death]
#7523682 - 10/16/07 03:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do expect that my questions won't be answered though.
When ever it gets to the nitty gritty people either avoid the question or call you a liar.
But then how else can they maintain their personal belief system without challenging it?
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7524320 - 10/16/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
So an so... that one individual we're talking about to be kind, shows signs of existence. As opposed to god. That individual had a body, we see him moving, interacting with his surroundings which have as effect producing changes. He picks up a glass full of water, the glass in now in his hand, going to his mouth, we see his lips moving and the water disappearing from the glass. Now that's sign of existence. As for judging his kindness everything is relative. The same individual can be judged by a person as being very kind and by another as being mean. And maybe by a third person as being insane. Which is the truth? The truth is that each of those persons see only aspects of that guy's personality and judge them compared to what appeals to them or not. So allow me to point to you that through this example you only proved me right. How can we be able to establish what "god" is or even if there is such a god, and having the attributes one might thing god has, when we fail big style on doing that with people? Who at least show indubitable signs of existence? 
But we humans are not the ultimate standard of Good or evil. God is the ultimate truth. We don't need anyone else to compare him to to perceive that truth. we can grasp him image, his likeness through the Spiritual perception he has given to us, through the "eyes of our heart".
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Quote:
But it makes perfect sense if you consider that God created us in his own likeness.
If it makes perfect sense, how come that you or anybody else trying to prove that "sense" fails miserably? 
I havn't failed miserably, you have failed miserably to recognise and use the ability to perceive the knowledge of God that he has given you.
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7524404 - 10/16/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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God is the ultimate truth.
I've been hearing you make these kinds of statements over and over. You act like they are objective rather than subjective truths. That's obviously not true, and easy to see from those of us who believe in other ideas.
That's always my objection to true believers such as yourself. You claim knowledge that any rational person can determine easily that you do not have. Yet you remain blind to this fact.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7524408 - 10/16/07 05:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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But we humans are not the ultimate standard of Good or evil. God is the ultimate truth. We don't need anyone else to compare him to to perceive that truth. we can grasp him image, his likeness through the Spiritual perception he has given to us, through the "eyes of our heart".
You haven't still proved the existence of god and I see no god. Good and evil are human concepts so I don't know how ca anyone can expect some "divine" being to tell then "right" from "wrong". More to that, "the eyes of truth" are merely another aspect of who we are, not something that's outside of us, such as our creator. God is an archetype not a being.
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I havn't failed miserably, you have failed miserably to recognise and use the ability to perceive the knowledge of God that he has given you.
Please keep personalisms out of this discussion. They prove nothing but your own inability to express yourself and are not the base of a philosophical debate. We are not here to discuss my personal matters but to have a civilized and if I don't ask too much, logical discussion.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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onlynow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7524420 - 10/16/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think he's listening
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: onlynow]
#7524426 - 10/16/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fortunately I only post to hear myself pontificate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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onlynow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7524435 - 10/16/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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rofl
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7524828 - 10/16/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You haven't still proved the existence of god and I see no god.
Noone can prove God to you. You must prove God to yourself. No matter how well you know something, you can always choose to deny it. You have to accept it for yourself, I can't do it for you.
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Please keep personalisms out of this discussion. They prove nothing but your own inability to express yourself and are not the base of a philosophical debate. We are not here to discuss my personal matters but to have a civilized and if I don't ask too much, logical discussion. 
Just because you do not accept the Universal truth does not mean it is not valid or a personalism.
If you accuse me of a personalism in this aspect, then you are really being hypocritical since it would be your personalism you state as universal to assert against my point.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7524861 - 10/16/07 07:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noone can prove God to you. You must prove God to yourself. No matter how well you know something, you can always choose to deny it. You have to accept it for yourself, I can't do it for you.
And why exactly do I have to accept it? 
Quote:
Just because you do not accept the Universal truth does not mean it is not valid or a personalism.
If you accuse me of a personalism in this aspect, then you are really being hypocritical since it would be your personalism you state as universal to assert against my point.
I attacked your idea, you attacked my behaviour. In a debate you can attack ideas, in fact it's encouraged because that's the purpose of a debate. Can you detect the distinction?
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7524907 - 10/16/07 07:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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And why exactly do I have to accept it? 
Cause if you don't God will make you pay big time.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7524939 - 10/16/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Darn, that fat ass in always bugging me
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7524974 - 10/16/07 07:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The great thing is that if you ignore him he completely disappears.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7525101 - 10/16/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I attacked your idea, you attacked my behaviour.
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If it makes perfect sense, how come that you or anybody else trying to prove that "sense" fails miserably? 
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In a debate you can attack ideas, in fact it's encouraged because that's the purpose of a debate. Can you detect the distinction? 
The idea I am attacking in this case would be the idea that I fail miserably at proving my point. There's no way to avoid attacking you in this instance, your failure to recognise and use the ability to perceive the knowledge of God that he has given you is a direct hindrence to the correct conclusion.
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And why exactly do I have to accept it? 
Because it's the truth. The Truth is the Truth is the Truth.
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7525178 - 10/16/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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your failure to recognise and use the ability to perceive the knowledge of God that he has given you is a direct hindrence to the correct conclusion.
 
Because it's the truth. The Truth is the Truth is the Truth.
 
Wow! this is the biggest bunch of non-sense I've seen here today. You win dude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7525197 - 10/16/07 08:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I knew you were holding his side from the start
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7525242 - 10/16/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've been hearing you make these kinds of statements over and over. You act like they are objective rather than subjective truths. That's obviously not true, and easy to see from those of us who believe in other ideas.
How does believing in other ideas make them valid? It's not merely believing, it's believing with evidence.
edit: It is objective Truth, and if you even recognized the basis of your own logic, you would realize that nothing can be truly asserted without an objective Truth. And nothing can be relative without an objective Truth. All relativity, is relative to an objective truth. But you say you know of no objective truth.
You do not truly know anything objective because your knowledge has a limit in this natural world, it is inconclusive, but God is ETERNAL. This is a point you continually fail to grasp.
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That's always my objection to true believers such as yourself. You claim knowledge that any rational person can determine easily that you do not have. Yet you remain blind to this fact.
I don't need to know the inside of every man's heart to know the Truth. I only need to know the Truth and go from there. I have determined the Truth, and the Truth says, everyone has the ability to perceive God's Spiritual nature.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/16/07 08:28 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7525282 - 10/16/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Icelander is famous for his grasplessness.
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onlynow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7525316 - 10/16/07 08:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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more copy and paste conceptual masturbation 
we definitely have a winner
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Nipples
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7526648 - 10/17/07 04:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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No scientific law is an absolute truth, each has its specific area in which it is applicable, each has its limitations. A scientific law is an expression of a pattern which the world exhibits when viewed in a particular way.
If you view the world in terms of thermodynamics, you see it behave, more or less, according to the laws of thermodynamics.
If you view the world in terms of its constituent sub-atomic "particles", then you see it behave, more or less, according to the laws of quantum mechanics.
Laws of thermodynamics may be very reliable, within their scope of application, but you can never use them to prove whether or not quantum mechanics is "true" or not.
"It is impossible, absolutely impossible to explain it in any classical way", - Richard Feynman talking about quantum mechanics.
... nor can you, IMHO, use laws of thermodynamics to prove whether theories of an afterlife are true or not.
(And anyway, as long as physicists don't how to detect, measure and quantify consciousness it makes no rational sense to apply physical laws to it ... it may make an interesting discussion, but it proves nothing.)
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TheCow
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Nipples]
#7526654 - 10/17/07 04:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't know what you mean, thermodynamics is already used in quantum mechanics, and is well established in quantum. My evidence to suggest to me that quantum is real, hey you can try this yourself even at home. Boot your computer up. Does it work? Hey you've experimentally proved that aspects of quantum are real, damn you're smart.
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Seuss
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7526749 - 10/17/07 06:24 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
"It is impossible, absolutely impossible to explain it in any classical way",- Richard Feynman talking about quantum mechanics.
Congrats on misquoting out of context in order to mislead your audience into thinking Feynman is backing up your claims. Good job!
Speaking about the double-slit experiment:
Quote:
We choose to examine a phenomenon which is impossible, absolutely impossible, to explain in any classical way, and which has in it the heart of quantum mechanics. In reality, it contains the only mystery."
R. P. Feynman, R. B. Leighton, and M. Sands, The Feynman Lectures on Physics, Volume I, Addison-Wesley, New York (1963), page 37.
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7527910 - 10/17/07 02:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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but God is ETERNAL.
Pure ignorance IMO. Being finite you cannot know what or who is eternal.
You do not use logic to validate your beliefs. I assume therefore that your beliefs are driven by fear and ignorance whether correct or incorrect.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7528240 - 10/17/07 03:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Are we talking formal or informal logic?
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7528542 - 10/17/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pure ignorance IMO. Being finite you cannot know what or who is eternal.
PROVE IT.
We can comprehend the concept of eternity, but we cannot comprehend an eternal God? Contradiction.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7528562 - 10/17/07 05:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7528602 - 10/17/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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sorry, the tone of my post wasn't clear. i forgot to add a couple of these
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#7528607 - 10/17/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh yes...
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7528726 - 10/17/07 05:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequent_calculus
Have fun kid 
It seems you've overlooked my point.
How does this apply?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7528761 - 10/17/07 05:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well this proves that you can't measure the infinite through finite means.
As for ignorance part, I can't prove you because no matter what I tell you, you'll ignore what I have to say.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7528915 - 10/17/07 06:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Well this proves that you can't measure the infinite through finite means.
Is someone trying to measure the infinite....? You can't "measure" beauty objectively, but you know when you see something beautiful - without measuring it....
The same goes with matters of spirituality and faith, right....? 
Is "logic" the only answer to everything....? A lot of life itself is abstract, ideas, or other things that cannot be proven or measured.... You can't always try to apply logic to everything and then say that it doesn't exist because it doesn't fit within "the current trends" of accepted logic itself....

>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Lion
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7528937 - 10/17/07 07:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Logically you shouldn't have even been able to type that post because YOU'RE A CAT AHHHHHHHHHHHH!
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Lion]
#7528960 - 10/17/07 07:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have a human interpretor.... 
>meow<
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7529173 - 10/17/07 08:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Recognizing eternity is an intuitive faculty. We have a number of every day use faculties that are intuitive but no one denies them.
Recognizing another human being is an intuitive faculty.
I think that ultimately all comprehension must be ultimately intuitive, but this does not forbid introspection by any means.
( and what I just wrote proves that)
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7529187 - 10/17/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Through the same intuition you're referring to in here it's been believed that the Earth was flat for a very LONG time.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7529251 - 10/17/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: Is someone trying to measure the infinite....? You can't "measure" beauty objectively, but you know when you see something beautiful - without measuring it....
The same goes with matters of spirituality and faith, right....? 
Yes exactly... beauty, as well as spirituality is subjective. And since they are subjective, the same judgements can't be applied to everybody. So, as long as we're talking about them in a non philosophical context, we agree. 
Quote:
Is "logic" the only answer to everything....?
Technically logic is not the answer, it's a tool. \ Not the only one, but it's a darn good tool.
Quote:
A lot of life itself is abstract, ideas, or other things that cannot be proven or measured....
Which is exactly why we should keep them put of philosophy and the reasoning area, and just experience and enjoy them. 
Quote:
You can't always try to apply logic to everything and then say that it doesn't exist because it doesn't fit within "the current trends" of accepted logic itself....
Indeed, you can;t apply logic on them because, as I stated earlier, they don't have a logic. Incidentally (or not) we're engaged in a debate and that's the nature of the discussion.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Lion]
#7529257 - 10/17/07 08:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bug said: Logically you shouldn't have even been able to type that post because YOU'RE A CAT AHHHHHHHHHHHH!
I'll have to admit too that my cat makes more than half of my posts. So it depends on the abilities of certain cats rather than the entire species.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7529258 - 10/17/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Through the same intuition you're referring to in here it's been believed that the Earth was flat for a very LONG time.
I get so sick of the flat earth rebuttal. What's worse than some people believing in flat earth is people who don't know history who do not understand that it was never a conflict between science and religion but a conflict between Copernican science and Aristotelian science which had become Church tradition.
I never want to hear about a flat earth as any arguement against me. Not even close to everyone believed in a flat earth, and the bible has always taught the earth is round.
In any case, it was never intuition , it was just a wild guess.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7529269 - 10/17/07 08:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Indeed, you can;t apply logic on them because, as I stated earlier, they don't have a logic. Incidentally (or not) we're engaged in a debate and that's the nature of the discussion. 
The basis of all of your logic is in intuitive comprehension.
edit: and in this same comprehension, is the greatest axiom we have: you are thinking. And within this axiom we find another fact that cannot be denied: those that think exist.and from this objective fact we find another fact: you exist and since you exist, and you use the same sentience to recognise the world around you, the outside world is just as real as you are. ANd by the ability to recognise our own persons, we can recognise other sentience and persons also. And all of this is from intuitive comprehension.
And if you don't like it, then don't ever think ever again. But since you cannot, please do not live in hypocricy by criticizing me for recognising human intuitive comprehension.
And that's fact.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/17/07 10:17 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7529281 - 10/17/07 08:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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WHAT are you talking abut?
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7529356 - 10/17/07 09:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry for the "quote box hell" ahead.... If you start to get nauseous, please turn away and take a few deep breaths.... 
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
PhanTomCat said: Is someone trying to measure the infinite....? You can't "measure" beauty objectively, but you know when you see something beautiful - without measuring it.... . The same goes with matters of spirituality and faith, right....? 
. Yes exactly... beauty, as well as spirituality is subjective. And since they are subjective, the same judgments can't be applied to everybody. So, as long as we're talking about them in a non philosophical context, we agree. 
. Are you proposing that a given philosophy is not valid if it is from a subjective point of view....?
Quote:
Quote:
Is "logic" the only answer to everything....?
. Technically logic is not the answer, it's a tool.  Not the only one, but it's a darn good tool.
. I would tend to agree with what you said....  Let me re-phrase what I asked.... Is "logic" the only tool used for answering everything....? Would "abstract reasoning" be a tool that could ever be used usefully in any given situations as a solution....?
Quote:
Quote:
A lot of life itself is abstract, ideas, or other things that cannot be proven or measured....
. Which is exactly why we should keep them put of philosophy and the reasoning area, and just experience and enjoy them. 
Did you mean "out of philosophy", or did you mean "out of philosophy and spirituality"....? 
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You can't always try to apply logic to everything and then say that it doesn't exist because it doesn't fit within "the current trends" of accepted logic itself....
. Indeed, you can;t apply logic on them because, as I stated earlier, they don't have a logic. Incidentally (or not) we're engaged in a debate and that's the nature of the discussion.
Yes ma'am.... I agree 100%.... "It is the hook that brings us back"... ~Blues Traveler
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7529416 - 10/17/07 09:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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PhanTomCat said: Sorry for the "quote box hell" ahead.... If you start to get nauseous, please turn away and take a few deep breaths....  >^;;^<
I don't know if I could EVER forgive you for this box! 

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Are you proposing that a given philosophy is not valid if it is from a subjective point of view....?
I think that we can talk about ant subjective matter from a philosophical point of view. On the note that it will be subject to critical thinking.
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I would tend to agree with what you said.... Let me re-phrase what I asked.... Is "logic" the only tool used for answering everything....? Would "abstract reasoning" be a tool that could ever be used usefully in any given situations as a solution....?
Well reasoning is about reaching conclusions based on logical premises and something abstract doesn't have such. 
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Did you mean "out of philosophy", or did you mean "out of philosophy and spirituality"....? 
Out of philosophy and spirituality, through which I understand talking about spirituality from a philosophical point of view.
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Yes ma'am.... I agree 100%.... "It is the hook that brings us back"... ~Blues Traveler
Ok, now let's get high! 
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7531355 - 10/18/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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jonathan_206 said:
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Pure ignorance IMO. Being finite you cannot know what or who is eternal.
PROVE IT.
We can comprehend the concept of eternity, but we cannot comprehend an eternal God? Contradiction.
WTF are you talking about? We can't comprehend either. Please get a few of your facts straight before replying.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7531363 - 10/18/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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criticizing me for recognising human intuitive comprehension.
 My intuition tells me there is no God. Therefore there is no fucking creator. End of story according to you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7531526 - 10/18/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Matter-Energy belong the nature, 'physis,' form, creation, Samsara. The other side of the equation is metaphysical, which is to say, 'prior to physics,' Formlessness, the Unmanifest, Nirvana. The latter has been called The Ground of Being and it is not manifest. The Laws of Thermodynamics have nothing to do with the Unmanifest, only the manifest. They are laws of physics.
Eternal Life from a Nirvanic Buddhist perspective, or the Ground of Being from a Christian perspective has nothing to do with energy, with form, with motion since this is a property of form. The so-called afterlife is a concept which usually refers to some individualized state of existence, a rarified, resurrected 'body,' or a discrete entity which 'moves' from life in this world to a new and alien condition. These concepts belong to popular or folk religion, which is to say, to multitudes of human beings who do not have the capacity to grasp metaphorical and symbolic value of language to infer a transcendental and incomprehensible Reality. If the Good Book says that Heaven has streets of gold, then that language which imparts the symbols of untarnishable, royal metal and that of a pathway or Way, entirely escapes the cruder mind unable to make thought-free intuitive leaps. It is the interpretation of a Concrete-Operational mind unable to attain Formal Operational thinking (in Piagetian term). In other words, it is a childish (not childlike) state of mind.
The higher nondualist conceptions point to a monist or monotheistic metaphysic in which the temporary formation of human psychophysical form dissolves at death like clouds evaporating in the utterly transparent sky from which they formed. The Ground of Being is like the sky, our embodied ego or psychophysical form has the ability to become aware of this 'sky' in which 'we live and move and have our being.' Unlike the fish in the sea that neither knows that it is wet or that it is composed mostly of water, the human being does have the capacity to Realize that we, and all things, arise from this Ground of Being. This Ground is Eternal and insofar as one becomes aware of its omnipresence, one becomes aware of Eternal Life, NOT of immortality. Immortality suggests that a form, an individual something can exist eternally. This is simply wrong thinking, but it is the thinking behind common misconceptions of life-afetr death. The Ground Consciousness is eternal, it is not extended in space-time, it is Unmanifest. Nothing can be posited of the Unmanifest and even saying that it is eternal explains or describes no-thing at all.
Mysticism is all traditions says that individual beings can transcend their individuality (their egoistic mind) and become aware of this Ground. It is thus not a matter of 'after-life' but a matter of Eternal Life which transcends the dichotomy of embodied life and disembodied death. The Ground remains. Awareness of the Ground and identification with the Ground is what Eternal Life consists of. It is not a matter of an individual possessing immortality, individual Eternal Life.
For St. Paul to say that he only wishes to Know 'Christ crucified' is to say in effect that at the death of the individual ego occurs, only the Eternal Life remains, which is Christ/Logos/Ground. All information is lost except Knowledge of Being, which as the Hindus say is called Sat Chit Ananda (Being-Knowledge-Bliss), Being which Knows itself. We never possess this Being-Knowledge because at bottom, in our essential nature, we ARE Being. The Realization, reflected in mind is Enlightenment.
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#7531562 - 10/18/07 02:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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These concepts belong to popular or folk religion, which is to say, to multitudes of human beings who do not have the capacity to grasp metaphorical and symbolic value of language to infer a transcendental and incomprehensible Reality.
So you noticed this too.
Good post by the way and my "human intuitive comprehension" tends to agree with you. But I can't prove it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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a_guy_named_ai
Stranger

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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7534522 - 10/19/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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We can comprehend the concept of eternity, but we cannot comprehend an eternal God? Contradiction.
*** are you talking about? We can't comprehend either. Please get a few of your facts straight before replying.
The fact that you recognize the concept of eternity proves that you comprehend it. You admit it by your own words. It's not necessary to perfectly know all depth and height and breadth of eternity. It's intuitive. You don't "comprehend" the own intuitive basis for your logic, and your intuitive perception of reality, but you do in fact comprehend it enough to recognize it's existence, and there is the possibility for introspection.
I think besides other things, you are very immature and rude, and I hope that deters anyone from taking heed to your nonsensical ravings.
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Icelander
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7534541 - 10/19/07 08:58 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just because I understand the concept eternity does not mean I can know anything about it other than I can't comprehend it. And like I said I "intuitively" know you don't have a clue what you are talking about and I intuitively know that your posting about God is fear based because life without someone telling you how to live and think and feel is intolerable.
And
Cut the personalisms. They don't belong in debate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/19/07 09:01 AM)
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: Icelander]
#7535036 - 10/19/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't understand this whole "personalism" thing. I can understand how it can be unwanted to be diverted into a debate on personal behaviour but sometimes personal behaviour simply needs to be addressed.
It's interesting how you can say you know intuitively I'm wrong when you say everything you know is subjective. Is this a sign of a change in your philosophy?
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fireworks_god
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Re: Law of Conservation of Energy and The Afterlife [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7535063 - 10/19/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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This thread has been closed.
Reason: I have spent far too much time addressing the lack of respect for the purpose and intention of this forum. Personalisms are never acceptable in this forum. If an individual feels that they simply have to be addressed, then individuals are free to take it to private messages, or the off-topic discussion forum.
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