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EternalCowabunga
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strange thoughts about "attachment"
#7513447 - 10/13/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I had some sort of idea about attachment that is mostly gone by today, I was hoping posters from P&S could help me flesh this idea out more. I don't want to see my ideas simply over analyzed and picked apart but to get different opinions on what I'm talking about or completely different points of view. If I am too vague, tell me to clarify the terms I use.
I believe that what is brought to our attention is the result of what kind of preferences or ideas we are attached to. Us being here right now is based on some kind of primal urge to live this life, like a higher part of us is attached to our individual experiences. This higher self becomes attached to things that we identify with our very nature, such as security and repetition.
When we "let go", it's not our perception of ourselves changing or trying to forget about an emotion or past experience - it's more like losing your very self with which you identify with to open up more to your higher self which is a larger fractal of yourself. This is all incredibly obvious but I was having one of these moments where I remembered something I had forgotten and it became clear again.
How can we distinguish what we identify with from what is actually ourselves? It seems almost impossible because we only know ourselves from our identity - I saw someone say this somewhere - "ALL IS EGO." I have also seen many comparisons to our identity being like an onion with many many layers and when you get to the end of it, it is just emptiness. I love this onion analogy!
Now for the fluffiness factor, this is just rambling so you can stop reading here:
So our identity must indeed be what we focus on. And if you focus with an open, psychedelic mindset, maybe you will become like a representation of a cosmic archetype and you will see other archetypes play out in front of you. These archetypes may be endless or maybe there are only a certain number of combinations like the I Ching, at least at our ability to perceive. This is just speculation based on the idea that there are higher dimensional forces which kind of drip down to our level of reality where things are manifested.
To want to know these higher forces is to want to become them, and this is like the ultimate identity blasphemy because it's false. I think I see now why I was driving myself crazy when I was trying to "figure out" these things by taking different drugs - we have to flow with the river, continue the stream downwards into creation. Swimming upwards is to focus on a part of us that we will never reach because those higher forces are just part of even higher forces until infinity and so we can never know what our source is.
I think this is how people get confused, honestly. They confuse letting go with the identification with source - and not the source of the ego, but the very source Nothingness which is actually self/creation-negating if you focus on it from the ego standpoint. Is this how Nihilism emerged? Infintilism, Nihilism - these philosophies (maybe) are the result of not creating meaning for oneself but replacing creation with the source of creation which is never created and never changing.
Niam, what is your opinion about this? Is existentialism essentially the philosophical opposite of nihilism?
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Edited by EternalCowabunga (10/13/07 08:48 PM)
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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Quote:
How can we distinguish what we identify with from what is actually ourselves?
what is it that gives you the desire to distinguish what is real and what is not?
observation and contemplation may answer this question, but definitely not conceptualizing.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: onlynow]
#7513593 - 10/13/07 09:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think I understand, onlynow. Are you saying that the ego should not make any distinctions but kind of just "take everything as it is" - isn't that unconsciousness? I don't know where I said anything about real or unreal in my post.
The point of my post wasn't to distinguish who we actually are, quite the opposite actually. It's more about how I realized that we are always creating who we are, and if we stop doing that then we are unconsciously attaching ourselves to a self-negating source.
We can't communicate without concepts. I'm trying to use concepts to explain something (identity) which is only partially made up of concepts, in my opinion. I don't see what's wrong with having a concept of who we are - this can even help us realize/actualize certain things we wouldn't normally and it may help us think of things differently.
I don't know, you might have to clarify this for me. How do we contemplate without some kind of structure of concepts?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Quote:
we have to flow with the river, continue the stream downwards into creation. Swimming upwards is to focus on a part of us that we will never reach because those higher forces are just part of even higher forces until infinity and so we can never know what our source is.
Depends on how many rivers you're into in the same time and if all flow in the same direction.  Leaving joke aside, I think that holding on is necessary some times. It may or may mot be the same thing with obsessing, but this too has a role IME. Until we gather some experience we tent to hold on to everything that's being offered to us or everything that we ourselves make happen. This is necessary for that particular stage because otherwise we would never reach other conclusions. With other words, we have to start somehow. And usually is by holding on to something, just like small kids hold on to every little new thing they learn. Everything seems "important" then because we don't know anything but that, and because it's in our instinct. It's about surviving and taking small and safe steps. As well as it's also natural, after we have a level of experience and we become aware of the infinite numbers of possibilities and combinations, to begin to wonder about our beliefs. Being able to let go comes from creativity, and creativity comes from the amount of information we have. However, if we let go too much just for the sake of letting go, we might miss out on some interesting new experiences. I think that it's important to keep our Will unaltered because through it we' can find pleasure and happiness, by detecting what appeals to us and what doesn't and then make our own choices.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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onlynow
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:Are you saying that the ego should not make any distinctions but kind of just "take everything as it is" - isn't that unconsciousness?
no the ego should not do anything i am for teh opposite.
self-realization is moving away from unconsciousness, i am just stressing the importance of realizing one's attachment for oneself.
Quote:
The point of my post wasn't to distinguish who we actually are, quite the opposite actually. It's more about how I realized that we are always creating who we are, and if we stop doing that then we are unconsciously attaching ourselves to a self-negating source.
what do you mean by "self-negating source"?
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I don't see what's wrong with having a concept of who we are - this can even help us realize/actualize certain things we wouldn't normally and it may help us think of things differently.
but these realizations are impermanent, as are concepts. these concepts will be gone tomorrow, but will the awareness remain intact?
there is nothing wrong with communicating these concepts, but IMO it will not lead to self-realization. i just don't see that happening through concepts, at least IME. nothing words better than meditation in the morning.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513839 - 10/13/07 10:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for your reply, MushroomTrip. I don't fully understand it all yet, but it strikes me as being true. I'd like to understand the Will more... I noticed some generalizations I made in my first post, which I guess I mistook as being the same case for everyone.
People have told me I have a very closed mind and am comfortable in my box. I think by a lack of information you mean experience, and I guess this comes from my being afraid to make mistakes. I've been very afraid to make mistakes, and I've always wanted to kind of just leap to that point of perfection, which I guess is actually the Source of Nothingness- so I can understand now how that has been self-negating and not a positive creative experience.
So I guess that is why we have to find some kind of path and really stick to it, otherwise we will let those regressive desires overtake us and allow us to sink in unconsciousness. This is like a safety mechanism for when we don't have the willpower to grow. The source is truly always positive, it is only negative when we aren't using it creatively - this isn't a lack of creation in itself, but a lack of creation by our individual selves.
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backfromthedead
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'How can we distinguish what we identify with from what is actually ourselves?'
In my experience, , what you run from catches up and hits you in the fucking mouth. Ouch. Embarrassing. One?? All?? Accept everything.
It goes something like cut it down, into the chipper, glue to make particle board, five sheets to make a shelter, then flick a seed out into the soil and see what happens. Suppose just tear a whole in the bag and let the seeds fall out as you walk home.
Some people like the mustard seed analogy. And the beans or seeds or whatever.
Fluff.
Big trees with star on top are pretty. Ready for Christmas??
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: backfromthedead]
#7514054 - 10/13/07 11:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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is the reason why I don't understand your post because I have some beliefs which are idealistic and naive? can you explain that shelter analogy? is the point that you make a shelter and then you throw a seed away and you obsess over the seed?
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backfromthedead
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Out with the old, in with the new. Easy??
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backfromthedead
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: backfromthedead]
#7514068 - 10/13/07 11:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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'is the reason why I don't understand your post because I have some beliefs which are idealistic and naive?'
No its me. I know this. Bear with me while I brave re-entry.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: backfromthedead]
#7514086 - 10/13/07 11:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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you're either being sarcastic agreeing to what i said or trying to make something clear to me but not saying it directly
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backfromthedead
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backfromthedead
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: backfromthedead]
#7514092 - 10/13/07 11:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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How direct can one be, really.
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onlynow
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: backfromthedead]
#7514100 - 10/13/07 11:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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not everyone speaks the poet's language..
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backfromthedead
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: onlynow]
#7514104 - 10/13/07 11:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey, I didn't start it. Something about fig leaves and summer time.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: backfromthedead]
#7514110 - 10/13/07 11:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Your posts are just opaque to me, not transparent. That's my own fault though I suppose
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



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your fault for not understanding his poetic expressions,
his fault for not expressing himself so that you can understand.
to each their own?
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MushroomTrip
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Since we're exactly on the topic, stop blaming yourself. Apparently chaotic words can have a huge power of suggestion if you read them just for fun. Once we stop taking things serious everything becomes just great.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: onlynow]
#7514129 - 10/13/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh, touche!!
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backfromthedead
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: backfromthedead]
#7514135 - 10/13/07 11:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Great rhymes with debate. And debate sounds like the bait. I used to live by the bay. Ultimately they were training it their own way. Don't care. But really really trying to take this weight. You want up?? Stand on my shoulders. Stars on the bottom?? Climb.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: strange thoughts about "attachment" [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7514136 - 10/13/07 11:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i'll take your word for it
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psyka
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: How can we distinguish what we identify with from what is actually ourselves?
I stopped reading from there, as I suppose that is the question you wish to have addressed.
There is form. There is an almost infinite variety of form. There is eye form, nose form, ear form, mouth form, body form, and mind form (concepts and ideas).
There are feelings. There are basically pleasant/unpleasant/neither. Happiness or sex would be considered pleasant, and sadness or fighting would be unpleasant (as it causes harm). Neither is a state of no conditions: equanimity (which is actually very hard to do without repressing our thoughts - which is unbeneficial).
There are perceptions. Perceptions based on ignorance, and perceptions based on understanding.
There are thoughts. Thoughts of the past, thoughts of the future, and thoughts grounded in the present moment.
There are consciousnesses. Eye consciousness, nose consciousness, ear consciousness, mouth consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness.
None of these things has an owner; they are just present. It is when we ascribe ownership to them, that we cling to these aggregates, and an identity is created.
We mentally form the thought, "This is my body." Ok... then stop aging, and don't ever get sick again. It isn't possible, because it is not your body, the body merely exists naturally, like a tree or insect. They didn't ask to come into being. They came into being because the conditions were right for them to arise.
There are two truths. A conventional truth, and an "ultimate" truth. The conventional truth is that there is indeed a self. The "ultimate" truth is that there truly is no self, that "self" is merely the sum of these aggregates, and that it is compounded like the layers of an onion.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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