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Offlinewobegone
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Registered: 10/05/07
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Last seen: 15 years, 2 days
micropore tape stuck to latex gloves
    #7508553 - 10/11/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

i did my first PF inoculation today and had a lot of trouble with the micropore tape sticking to my latez gloves. it made it so difficult to get the tape off the jars that i went bare handed after wiping my paws off w/ alcohol. anyone advice about this would be appreciated.


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OfflineAndrew47
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: wobegone]
    #7508567 - 10/11/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I never use gloves


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: wobegone]
    #7508616 - 10/11/07 11:41 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

soak the tape in alcohol before you use it.

when the alcohol dries, the ahesive will take effect again.


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: Andrew47]
    #7509146 - 10/11/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Andrew47 said:
I never use gloves




That will catch up with you, there are thousands of nooks and crannies in the folds of your skin/nailbeds that will hide contaminates that you simply cannot "scrub" clean, no matter how hard you try.

When I inoculate I do the following methodical routine...

Wash (on HOT) a fresh pair of pajama-pants (great substitute for scrubs), a long sleeved shirt and pair of long socks. While the clothes are in the washing machine I take all of my materials into my work-area and I thoroughly clean all surfaces my workspace top to bottom with lysol and then spray the air with a can of oust until it's a deep fog in the room. When the clothes are finished washing I throw them into the tumbler/dryer to dry on it's highest temperature, I jump in the shower.

I scrub my entire body top to bottom, wash my hair, shave, brush my teeth and use mouth-wash. I pull my hair straight back and put a cap on to keep it confined.

I then get dressed, tucking the pajamas pants into my socks and my shirt into my pajama pants. I then put on a set of tyvek arm-sleeves and my latex gloves and tuck the tyvek sleeves into the latex gloves. Finally I put on a surgical mask - dust/gas masks are _absolutely worthless_ for this application - and enter my sealed off work area where the oust has been allowed to settle out of the air undisturbed for the last hour...and begin my work.

----
That merits repeating though... dust masks and gas masks that you would find at a hardware store are ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS and provide **NO** protection whatsoever. They are designed to prevent (relatively speaking) very large particles from getting _in_ to your mouth while a surgical mask is designed to prevent the ultra-small contaminates from getting out of your mouth and onto the patient - in this case our sterile environment.

The other bits are designed to clean and cover the millions of locations where bacterial and fungal contaminates hide all over our body...

In my humble opinion, that is the *minimum* requirement for personal cleanliness to prevent contaminations and every other short-cut only further increases your risk of a contaminate making it's way into your work.


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:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

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figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: mycocurious]
    #7509187 - 10/11/07 02:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

well, seeing how you mentioned it, surgical masks are not ideal either.
N95 masks are what you want. They perform better than surgical
grade masks.


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OfflineWalter1496211
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: monstermitch]
    #7509218 - 10/11/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Wow!! I could not imagine doing all that.  It always amazes me how mushrooms even grow in the wild to begin with.  I wonder if there is a shroom fairy that flies around sterilizing little patches of dirt for shrooms to grow on?  :fairy:


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: monstermitch]
    #7509276 - 10/11/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

monstermitch said:
well, seeing how you mentioned it, surgical masks are not ideal either.
N95 masks are what you want. They perform better than surgical
grade masks.




If you're really going to split hairs...

The difference between a respirator mask and surgical mask is whom it is protecting, the patient or the wearer and most times they are _not_ designed to do both. Not all NIOSH (National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health) N95 rated masks are FDA Approved as a surgical mask for this reason.

However, you are right, if you're getting a surgical mask - and I still believe that the word surgical should be #1 thing you look for on the box - you should try to find a N95 or N99 Surgical mask...but you can't assume that just because it's N95 NIOSH Certified that it's designed to trap the particles coming out of your breath.

Randomly, did a little googling and found this rather informative read...
Respirators and Surgical Masks: A Comparison


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:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: Walter1496211]
    #7509299 - 10/11/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

the problem is the sterilization.

when we sterilize a substrate it becomes non-selective.
so whomever gets to it first wins.

in the wild mushrooms grow on selective substrates that molds
and bacteria cannot just easily consume.
Mushrooms can grow in the presence of contaminates inside and
outside without any problems. The problem we encounter is when
we use non-selective substrates and expose them to air that has
mold spores present in it.

Mold does not hurt mushrooms, it hurts the chance of future non-
selective substrates we use to colonize with mushroom mycelium
rather than mold mycelium.

The reason we pasteurize bulk substrates and casings instead of
sterilize them is because they're exposed to air, and therefore
mold spores. Pasteurization allows for the material to be selective
for a period of time. It kills the current mold spores and many
harmful bacteria, but it leaves behind many bacteria too. As in the
wild, this remaining bacteria is not considered a contaminate, it's
an ally if anything.

The reason we use hydrated lime falls in this category too.
making the pH above 7.0 makes a substance selective. Not for
molds, for mushrooms. Molds prefer lower pH substances, more
like 4.5-6.0 or so. Mushrooms can perform fine in a substrate that
has a pH of 7.0 or 8.0, but molds cannot.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: monstermitch]
    #7509543 - 10/11/07 04:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

One should use a surgical mask, NOT a respirator when doing mycology work. Respirators are designed to protect the wearer. We don't require that in mycology. What we need is to protect our projects from ourselves. Surgical masks stop at least 99% of your exhaled bacteria. Respirators, such as the N95 etc., are designed to protect doctors from their patient. That isn't the use we're putting them to.
RR


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7509645 - 10/11/07 04:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not test surgical masks. Rather, the manufacturer provides data and proposed claims to FDA for review. The FDA reviews manufacturer's test data and "clears" the mask for sale. Tests include particle filtration efficiency (PFE), bacterial filtration efficiency, fluid resistance, flammability testing, etc. The results of the surgical mask PFE testing and the NIOSH filtration testing should not be compared. The PFE test is a quality indicator for healthcare surgical masks. The PFE test is not an indicator of respirator protection performance and is not comparable to the government mandated filtration testing required for NIOSH approved respirators, such as the N95 filtering facepiece respirator. The filter media of a surgical mask with a very high PFE (>95%) may be less than 70% efficient when tested with the NIOSH N95 test method. Additionally, because surgical masks do not seal against the face when worn much of the inhaled air passes through gaps between the mask and the face rather than through the filter media. The bacterial filtration efficiency and fluid resistance tests measure the masks ability to capture large particles expelled by the wearer and to help reduce the wearer's exposure to splashes respectively.




I'm certainly open to being wrong on this issue, but I feel it needs
some further discussion.
Surgical masks have many downfalls like lack of testing for efficency
and lack of fitting the face snugly...


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OfflineWronguy

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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: monstermitch]
    #7509652 - 10/11/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Here is a link to an article posted by the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center on this very topic:

Quote:


http://www.upmc-cbn.org/report_archive/2007/02_February_2007/cbnreport_02152007.html

CBN Report: Surgical Masks May Provide Significant Aerosol Protection

By Eric Toner, M.D., February 15, 2007

The relative protection afforded by surgical and N-95 masks is an important issue that is prompting much debate in the process of planning for outbreaks of infectious respiratory diseases such as SARS or an influenza pandemic. In an article published recently in the American Journal of Industrial Medicine, Y. Li and colleagues from The Hong Kong Polytechnic University report the results of their study comparing the in vivo protective performance of surgical masks and N95 respirators [1]. The authors found that N95 respirators filtered out 97% of a test aerosol while surgical masks did almost as well, filtering out 95% of the aerosol.

Methods
The authors used a KCl-flourescein solution aerosol as a viral simulant. KCl is the test challenge aerosol recommended by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), and flourescein was added as a visual marker to gauge the degree of KCl penetration. Each of 10 subjects (half men and half women) was tested wearing each kind of mask. The masks were fitted properly, and the subjects were tested at rest and while walking on a treadmill up to 6.4 km/hr (4 miles/hour). The KCl solution was sprayed on the mask twice every 10 minutes, for a total of 14 times, from a distance of 1 meter away using an atomizer.

The degree of filtration of the challenge aerosol was measured in two ways. First, the concentration of KCl in the 4 layers of the exposed N95 and the 3 layers of the exposed surgical mask was determined. Second, the degree of flourescein staining on the portion of a subject’s face covered by the mask was quantified.

Results
The estimated size of the most penetrating aerosol particles reaching the mask was 0.1-0.3µm. By each method, the N95 performed significantly better than the surgical mask, but the difference was small (2%).

Droplet vs. Aerosol
Surgical masks have long been the recommended respiratory protection for diseases transmitted by large droplets (>5µ) such as plague or meningococcal meningitis. For diseases such as TB that are transmitted by small droplet aerosols, an N95 (or better) respirator or powered air purifying respirators (PAPRs) with high efficiency particulate absorbing (HEPA) filter is recommended. It has been generally assumed that a surgical mask provided little protection from aerosols. With SARS and influenza, both droplet and aerosol transmission may occur, although the relative importance of each is debated.

During the SARS epidemic, in most circumstances, surgical masks were effective in protecting healthcare workers (HCW) from infection. In a case-control study of five hospitals in Hong Kong affected by SARS, W. H. Seto and colleagues found that consistent use of surgical masks was associated with a significant reduction in risk of infection. In fact, of 51 HCW with documented SARS exposure while wearing a surgical mask, none became infected. In contrast, 13 of 198 exposed HCWs (6.5%) who did not wear a surgical mask or N95 were infected. [2]

Similar results were found in Toronto during the SARS outbreak, where consistent use of surgical masks reduced the risk of infection by 50% among 32 critical care nurses who entered the room of a SARS patient. Consistent use of an N95 resulted in an 80% risk reduction. [3]

The experience with the SARS epidemic clearly demonstrated a relationship between the risk of infection to HCWs and certain aerosol-generating medical procedures. The highest risk was associated with endotracheal intubation, airway suctioning, and non-invasive positive pressure ventilation [4]. In these settings, the highest degree of respiratory protection possible is warranted.

Finite Supply of N95s
It has been argued that since influenza transmission occurs through both aerosols and large droplets [5], all personnel with direct patient contact should wear N95s or PAPRs. However, there are several problems with this approach: N95s cost approximately 10 times as much as surgical masks; they are much less comfortable to wear, especially for prolonged periods of time, which could result in under-utilization; and there is a finite national (and global) supply of N95s. The Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) has 105 million N95s on hand or on order [6]. Added to the stocks maintained by hospitals and distributors, this supply may be enough to provide an N95 for all HCWs in direct contact with flu patients during a relatively mild pandemic. This supply is probably not enough for all in a severe pandemic, in which case use of N95s would have to be restricted to those at greatest risk.

The HHS guidelines
On October 17, 2006, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) released new interim guidelines for the use of surgical masks and respirators in an influenza pandemic. [7] These new interim guidelines are meant to augment and supersede previous recommendations located in Part 2 of the HHS Pandemic Influenza Plan (www.hhs.gov/pandemicflu/plan/). This plan was released in November 2005 and may be updated or amended as new epidemiologic information becomes available.

Specifically, HHS now recommends that a properly fit-tested, NIOSH-certified N-95(or higher) respirator should be worn in lieu of surgical masks when:

  1. Participating in procedures that have a high likelihood of generating aerosolized particles (e.g., endotracheal intubation, nebulizer treatments, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and bronchoscopy) performed on a patient with confirmed or suspected pandemic influenza.
  2. Providing direct care to patients with confirmed or suspected pneumonia due to pandemic influenza. 

Furthermore, HHS says that the use of an N95 is prudent in the direct care of all other patients with confirmed or suspected pandemic influenza if there is a sufficient supply.

With an insufficient supply of N95s, the guidelines recommend prioritization for use in high risk, aerosol generating situations. In addition, in the event of a shortage, other NIOSH-certified N, R, or P- class respirators or powered air purifying respirators (PAPRs) may be considered; however, re-usable respirators, such as PAPRs, must be decontaminated after each use. The guidelines reinforce that proper training in the use, removal, and disposal of respirators as well as the medical contraindications to respirator use is critical.

In the event that no respirators are available, the guidance points out that surgical masks will provide benefits against droplet exposure and should be worn by all HCW having direct contact with confirmed or suspected pandemic influenza patients.

Summary
The current study, supported by the clinical observations from the SARS epidemic, provides evidence that a surgical mask may provide significant protection from aerosols as well as droplets. In high risk settings, N95 respirators or PAPRs should be used if available. However, if N95s are not available, as might be expected in a severe pandemic, use of a surgical mask along with other routine barriers (gown, gloves, and goggles) may afford significant protection from infection, especially in low risk settings. Since surgical masks vary considerably in design, further study is needed to evaluate the aerosol filtering efficiency of various masks. The Institute of Medicine is hosting a meeting entitled “Workshop on Personal Protective Equipment for Healthcare Workers in the Event of Pandemic influenza: Next Steps and Research Agenda” on Feb. 22, 2007 in Washington, D.C. to explore these issues [http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3740/39644/39679.aspx].

References
[1] Li Y, Wong  T, Chung J , et al. In vivo protective performance of N95 respirator and surgical facemask, Am J Industrial Med 2006:49:1056 –1065.

[2] Seto W, Tsang D, Yung R, et al. Effectiveness of precautions against droplets and contact in prevention of nosocomial transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). Lancet 2003;361:1519-1520. 

[3] Loeb M, Mcgeer A, Henry B, et al. Emerg Infect Dis. 2004;10:251-255. Available online at http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol10no2/03-0838.htm. Accessed February 8, 2007.

[4] Fowler R, Guest C, Lapinsky S, et al.  Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome during intubation and mechanical ventilation. Am J Respir Crit Care Med 2004;169:1198-1202. Available online at http://171.66.122.149/cgi/content/abstract/169/11/1198. Accessed February 8, 2007.

[5] Tellier R. Review of aerosol transmission of influenza A virus. Emerg Infect Dis. 2006;12: Nov. Available from http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no11/06-0426.htm. Accessed February 15, 2007.

[6]DHHS. Pandemic Planning Update III, A Report from Secretary Michael O. Leavitt November 13, 2006. Available online at http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/pdf/panflureport3.pdf . Accessed February 8, 2007.

[7] Interim Guidance on Planning for the Use of Surgical Masks and Respirators in Health Care Settings during an Influenza Pandemic.




While this article may not directly speak about the efficiency of filtration from the user to the ambient environment, I think we all need to examine the probability that the filtration works both ways. In addition, its seems very clear that surgical masks are not tested or certified by any government or independent agency. We are forced to accept the manufacturer's claim of efficiency, as where N95 masks are strictly tested, regulated, and certified.

All filtration being equal, surgical masks do not fit near as tightly as the N95 counterparts. I think this alone cannot be ignored.

I don't see any concrete evidence based on the research I've done that concludes surgical masks have any superiority to the N95 masks. I guess the debate will continue. :grin:


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Offlineacommunistspy
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves *DELETED* [Re: Wronguy]
    #7509810 - 10/11/07 05:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by acommunistspy

Reason for deletion: this never happened



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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: acommunistspy]
    #7509918 - 10/11/07 06:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

all seems a bit over the top tome when I simple well constructed glove box will do the job just fine.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7509929 - 10/11/07 06:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

even when working with a flowhood you should be wearing
a mask.

we, the hobbyists, are the number one source of contamination.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: micro pore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: monstermitch]
    #7509987 - 10/11/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Right on, almost no one says to use a mask, but you breath out so many contams. My foaf always uses a mask!


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: micro pore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7510104 - 10/11/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Both of those quotes are missing the point when it comes to mycology. The standard they're testing is how the mask protects the wearer, which we don't have a concern for. Our projects are not going to give us a fatal disease. Respirators are tight fitting around the cheeks, to prevent you from inhaling air from the edges that doesn't get filtered. This is important if you need protection from airborne pathogens.

Surgical masks are open at the cheeks purposely to allow a low pressure route of escape for your exhaled bacteria(breath). What passes through the mask generally has 99% of the bacteria filtered out, depending on brand. Hospital operating rooms have HEPA filters in the ceiling that draw the room currents up and away from the patient. By having the doctor's breath leave in the direction of the ceiling, thus the filters, the patient is protected. This is our scenario as well.

When the FDA says they don't test surgical masks, it means THEY don't test surgical masks. It doesn't mean they don't get tested.
A surgical mask with the N95 rating is going to do our job just fine. However, a cheapie surgical mask works very well too. It's all I've used for years. The thing NOT to use is a construction type dust mask.
RR


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Offlinesoulsizzle
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Re: micropore tape stuck to latex gloves [Re: wobegone]
    #7510348 - 10/11/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wobegone said:
i did my first PF inoculation today and had a lot of trouble with the micropore tape sticking to my latez gloves. it made it so difficult to get the tape off the jars that i went bare handed after wiping my paws off w/ alcohol. anyone advice about this would be appreciated.




Back to the original point. I say ditch the micropore tape. The vermiculite layer should be sufficient at keeping contaminates out. Wear gloves cleansed with alcohol and a mask if you prefer.


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