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Invisibledemiu5
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love (an idea I'm kicking around)
    #7508470 - 10/11/07 11:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There is no love outside of parental/familial love. I'm beginning to think that no experience can bring two or more people together in this manner except through either raising/being raised or by being raised with another.

I've touted before that one can't love another until they love themselves, but I'm also kicking around the idea that self love is no more than the ego's creation as a more 'evolved' [complex] form of survival/self perpetuation...possibly even a societal construct.

The implications of this would reach into almost every aspect of human behavior. Think of all the futility in trying to find, discover, bring about, bring to the surface, etc... love as it is thought about in general.

I do think it is possible for us to care about others, but I'm doubting the ability to actually love.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7508485 - 10/11/07 11:08 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This has not been my experience, but YMMV.  :shrug:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7508489 - 10/11/07 11:10 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Good question.

Rather than self-love how about instead unconditional self-acceptance?

I have often noted that what most call love is self-indulgent addiction.

I think love is impersonal and more of a serene and relaxed merging with people or the environment. I don't believe love is emotional.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBloody Shit
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7508492 - 10/11/07 11:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
There is no love outside of parental/familial love. I'm beginning to think that no experience can bring two or more people together in this manner except through either raising/being raised or by being raised with another.

I've touted before that one can't love another until they love themselves, but I'm also kicking around the idea that self love is no more than the ego's creation as a more 'evolved' [complex] form of survival/self perpetuation...possibly even a societal construct.

The implications of this would reach into almost every aspect of human behavior. Think of all the futility in trying to find, discover, bring about, bring to the surface, etc... love as it is thought about in general.

I do think it is possible for us to care about others, but I'm doubting the ability to actually love.




Just because you haven't experienced love doesn't make it not exist.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7508503 - 10/11/07 11:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not saying that it isn't true for you, but I do say that it couldn't be the same with everybody.
I think that the love for one's family is usually imprinted, it's not something authentic.
How many times did you hear people say: I really don't enjoy their presence, but they're my parents and I love them... or parents telling the same thing about their children. It seems to me that it's just a social conduct and the if those people were to be taken out of the family-love conditioning they wouldn't even be talking to each other.
As opposed to the way we choose our lover or friends. We choose to spend time with these people because we connect. :heartpump: And this far more deep than just the family conditioning.
For instance, I care about my parents but if I decide to really analyze our relationship I realize that if they weren't my parents I would maybe have no feelings for them. And the feelings that I have for them are mainly due to the fact that we lived in the same house for so many years that we got used to each other. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBloody Shit
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: Icelander]
    #7508509 - 10/11/07 11:17 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

^Mushroom Trip, I like the point you made.

Quote:

Icelander said:I think love is impersonal and more of a serene and relaxed merging with people or the environment. I don't believe love is emotional.




Love is impersonal? You don't believe love is an emotion? A feeling? :eek:

I find your conclusions sad and misguided.


Edited by Bloody Shit (10/11/07 11:19 AM)


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: Bloody Shit]
    #7508518 - 10/11/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

not to be offensive, but:

a) nowhere in my post did i say whether i felt i had or had not experienced love

b) how do you know you've experienced love?



Quote:

Icelander said:
I have often noted that what most call love is self-indulgent addiction.




good obersvations :laugh:

Quote:


I think love is impersonal and more of a serene and relaxed merging with people or the environment. I don't believe love is emotional.




this is kind of where this idea is heading, I think.  I haven't really gotten it worked out at all and this is just kind of a preliminary draft of a thought that struck me (love?) yesterday when thinking about family and friends

I completely agree that love is not emotional, except on the parent-child, sibling-sibling level, and I may change my thoughts on that in time


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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OfflineBloody Shit
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7508696 - 10/11/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
not to be offensive, but:

a) nowhere in my post did i say whether i felt i had or had not experienced love

b) how do you know you've experienced love?





a)The fact that you don't even believe love exists other than in families clearly shows that you lack a knowledge of what love is as well as the claim to having ever been in love.

b) I know I've experienced love because well... I just do? What kind of response do you expect from me when you ask such a question? Other than to get under my skin, though you failed at doing so. When you experience love in a romantic relationship someday, that is if you do, you'll understand.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: Bloody Shit]
    #7508727 - 10/11/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I know I've experienced love because well... I just do?

Brilliant debate .:thumbup:

IMO romantic love is self-indulgent addiction. It's hormone driven and rarely long lasting. And yes, I have experienced it before so I "just know" what I'm talking about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7508784 - 10/11/07 12:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What IS love, then, by your estimation? If the only way two people can experience love is through familial associations, what creates this bond? What is so unique about the relationships between parent & child and siblings that allows humans to generate a loving connection under these circumstances, and ONLY under these circumstances?

(Mind you, many family relationships DO NOT appear to generate this loving connection, so you'd need to account for this discrepancy.)

My experience with romantic addiction (what our culture promotes as love) has shown it to be unlike what I experience as love. However, I have experienced love with my partner and with my friends, as well as with my mother, brothers, sister & my sons.

How would you differentiate between the love (or as you term it "care") you might feel for your best friend, and that which you might feel for a parent or sibling?


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: Bloody Shit]
    #7509149 - 10/11/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bloody Shit said:
a)The fact that you don't even believe love exists other than in families clearly shows that you lack a knowledge of what love is as well as the claim to having ever been in love.




whoah, whoah, whoah! in none of my posts did I use the word believe.  beliefs are usually what get people into trouble (outside of their immediate actions, often hinged on beliefs).  even the thread title states 'an idea I'm kicking around'

the main thing that got me to thinking about this was debating whether I actually loved the one person that I thought, at the time, I had loved about 5 years ago

Quote:


b) I know I've experienced love because well... I just do? What kind of response do you expect from me when you ask such a question? Other than to get under my skin, though you failed at doing so. When you experience love in a romantic relationship someday, that is if you do, you'll understand.




as ice said, that reasoning is not logical.  my intentions were not to get under your skin, but to maybe try and grasp this a little better.  Love is not physical or tangible, therefore, I have good measure to doubt that it is. 


Quote:

ice said:
It's hormone driven and rarely long lasting.




not to inflate your ego anymore (;)) but you were right about this similar topic in reference to me back a few months ago



Quote:

Veritas said:
What IS love, then, by your estimation?  If the only way two people can experience love is through familial associations, what creates this bond?  What is so unique about the relationships between parent & child and siblings that allows humans to generate a loving connection under these circumstances, and ONLY under these circumstances?


How would you differentiate between the love (or as you term it "care") you might feel for your best friend, and that which you might feel for a parent or sibling?




I don't think I have a working definition for love anymore.  I am easily infatuated, but my attention can be held for a long time (if given the chance) which kind of negates the initial infatuation. 

I have never had children and, being a male, am not able to give birth.  But in raising plants and other things, I have felt strong feelings towards these organisms which I have had a major part in allowing them the possibility to be alive (despite not creating the seed).  I can only imagine that to have a living organism created and growing inside of oneself (that is of its own species, of course...cancers/viruses not included :wink:) would result in a permanent connection.  I would like to think this permanent connection is at least similar to if not love.  maybe sibling-sibling isn't a guaranteed (doesn't have to be genetic) especially as age differences come into play.

I love my mother because she looked after my health until I was able to do so on my own.  Obviously, she didn't have to, as some mothers don't.  But I love her for this, that she gave me life and allowed my life to continue.  Outside of that, yea, I find my mom to be a pretty annoying and often depressing/unhealthy person

thinking about other friends and family, maybe love comes from experiences together.  but then one would have to begin labeling degrees of love.  at this point, that does not seem logical for love to have differing degrees or levels.

and maybe mushroomtrip is getting closer, that love is different to everyone.  but if that's the case, why do we communicate about it so casually and (usually) assume that we understand when another talks about it?

Quote:


(Mind you, many family relationships DO NOT appear to generate this loving connection, so you'd need to account for this discrepancy.)




aye.  I have no intentions of speaking to my father because he was a horrible dad when we lived together with him.  however, he tried to buy love, seeking our attention and adoration (being happy with), because this is how his parents treated him and he thought that was love (or he acted that he thought that way).  I do understand there is a discrepancy here, and in other places, but that's cause I haven't worked through all of this yet.  I like bringing my ideas here to see how well they hold up or what can be pointed out about them and to gain other perspectives on them, and, again, that is what I am doing with this.


further, maybe, there are two types of people:  those who are capable of loving and those who aren't (nihilism?)


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7509213 - 10/11/07 02:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, on that note, I'll give you MY current working definition of love:

Positive regard for another living being which includes the sincere desire for them to be freed from suffering and to fully enjoy their experience of being alive.

This love may be embedded within a connected relationship, but it may be shared freely between any beings which become aware of one another.  This could include plants, though it would be difficult to discern whether your love was returned.

Perhaps what you see as unique to the familial bond is that lack of structured expectation which is often present in a 'romantic' relationship?  The love of a parent for a child can be unconditional and lifelong, while the fleeting hormonal spell of infatuation fades within 6 months.

However, I DO think that love between friends and partners can have the same qualities.  The deciding factor is expectation.  If we go into partnership expecting it to do something for us, save us from our unhappiness, make us a better person, complete our life, reduce our stress, serve our needs for flowers and candy (;)), then we are simply imposing a contract upon infatuation, and not offering love.

This does not mean that we must abandon our preferences & accept whatever happens in our relationships, but it does mean that our heart does not close to our partner if the relationship ends.  It means that we STILL hold them in positive regard, and still wish for an end to their suffering & for them to fully enjoy their life.  If they "fail" to meet our needs, and we decide that we hate them for it, then what we shared was infatuation and manipulation, not love.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: Veritas]
    #7510230 - 10/11/07 07:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Excellent. :thumbup: That was extremely well articulated, Veritas. Thank you.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: love (an idea I'm kicking around) [Re: demiu5]
    #7511199 - 10/11/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

>>>>the main thing that got me to thinking about this was debating whether I actually loved the one person that I thought, at the time, I had loved about 5 years ago

Would it not be easier to admit that you loved them, and still do? Following this logic, yes, I love everyone, though I still struggle with it. Perhaps the only true love is that which we extend to everyone. It's the same love we extend to ourselves. If you aren't loving something about this person, there is something about yourself that you're not loving. Using this frame, you can use what you don't like about someone else to figure out what you don't like about yourself. What do you not love about them?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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