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InvisibletrendalM
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Is it possible to "force" a person do something?
    #7504990 - 10/10/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Let's say you can do anything you want to someone, in order to force them to do something. You can talk to them, hit or torture them, or even implant electrodes into their brain. Anything you want, provided it is physically possible.

Could you force a person to do something? Likewise, could you be forced to do something against your will?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505005 - 10/10/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Are you volunteering as a test subject? :hehehe:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505006 - 10/10/07 12:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I suspect yes in both cases... brainwashing works. *shrug*


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505017 - 10/10/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This reminds me of an instance in Walmart when a couple in front of me said to their toddler: "We are going to set you off on the side of the road and leave you." So I'm thinking just what does installing abandonment issues into a child achieve? Yeah I think it is possible to 'force' someone to do something.


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OfflineRoosterCogburn
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Seuss]
    #7505019 - 10/10/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Usually the threat of harm against SOMEONE OTHER than the subject works better, and yeilds more success. It obviously has to be someone close to them, parent or child works well.

It's pretty evil, but sadly effective.


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Offlineboxcarguy07
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505020 - 10/10/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't believe it's possible to be forced to do something against your will.

At whatever point that happens, it is no longer your will.
See what I'm saying?

Okay... let's say someone is holding a gun to your head and if you don't do what he wants, he will kill you. He's still not forcing you to do anything. You have the choice to do what he wants, and you have the choice to not do what he wants. One choice may end up with you having a bullet hole in your skull, but that still doesn't mean you were forced to make a single decision.

On the other hand, if someone were to grab your arm, put a gun in your hand, and push your finger down so that your finger pulled the trigger, then they still weren't forcing you to do anything against your will, because your will was no longer part of the picture. You became a tool for them.

All very interesting to me. Something I think a lot about actually lol


--------------------
:musicnote:Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.:musicnote:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505026 - 10/10/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No.  They still must initiate their actions from within, so even actions performed under duress are voluntary.  Brainwashing merely convinces someone that they should comply with your demands, it does not make them comply.  Torture convinces them that not complying will involve horrific consequences, but they still must make themselves act.  Even hypnosis does not allow someone control over your actions, but rather makes one more suggestible to the demands of another.

I must allow for one exception, however: my ex DID force me to divorce him.  :wink:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505029 - 10/10/07 12:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Let's say you can do anything you want to someone, in order to force them to do something. You can talk to them, hit or torture them, or even implant electrodes into their brain. Anything you want, provided it is physically possible.

Could you force a person to do something? Likewise, could you be forced to do something against your will?




Yes..

If a little girl (person) was not wanting to move...
A big[ger] girl (person) could pick her up, and make her move...


Also. You s-/c-hould check out the Japanese ear effect'er..
It effects your innear·ear thing (those three things), so you can be remote controlled.. (Feels like being drunk.)
It will probably be implemented via GPS and such...

Imagine being drunk. Unable to know where you are, and what you are doing...
Instead of anything, just flip the thing on and start walking.. It would guide you home, or to the bar who allowed drunks. ;p Or what ever.. :wink:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505045 - 10/10/07 12:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Could you force a person to do something? Likewise, could you be forced to do something against your will?




Behaviorists have been doing this for over a hundred years now.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505049 - 10/10/07 12:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

die
you could make me die


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7505052 - 10/10/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

Could you force a person to do something? Likewise, could you be forced to do something against your will?




Behaviorists have been doing this for over a hundred years now.




:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Cherk]
    #7505056 - 10/10/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
die
you could make me die




And how's that? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505062 - 10/10/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

make me stop living
be creative


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Gomp]
    #7505075 - 10/10/07 12:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Picking someone up is not making them do it, as they are not initiating the action.

As to the inner-ear tech (aka galvanic vestibular stimulation):

Quote:

The truth is that GVS in its current stage is far from the control freak's ultimate weapon. Boston University's Collins dismissed the possibility of using the technology to move humans completely against their will because, he said, "Our central nervous system, through volitional commands, could largely override the effects produced by GVS." Score one for good, old-fashioned willpower.

Another researcher active in GVS agreed. "At present, we can induce small changes in body stance and posture, but are nowhere near remote controlling humans."



http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=03100000RTWI&page=3


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Cherk]
    #7505079 - 10/10/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You can't call that being forced.
For example, I could be here as a reminder of you every "wrong" that you did in your life, of everything you feel guilty and terrible about. And as a result you choose to end your life. Because there was still a choice for you to continue your life. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7505082 - 10/10/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

Could you force a person to do something? Likewise, could you be forced to do something against your will?




Behaviorists have been doing this for over a hundred years now.




ORLY? Examples?


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Veritas]
    #7505100 - 10/10/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:


ORLY? Examples?




"You are going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity if you don't accept jesus as your Lord and Saviour."


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Cherk]
    #7505106 - 10/10/07 12:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

After a certain amount of coercion, and the amount necessary varies from person to person depending on thier strength of will, most people will break. There comes a point when one is suffering extreme pain where survival instincts take control and kick the will out of the seat of command. It takes a particularly strong individual to hold onto themselves through extremely coercive suffering.

Think about the Witch Hunts in Europe - there were 3 degrees of torture and by the third every single person had either 'confessed' or died. Torture is a giant mind-fuck, people lose themselves after a certain amount of pain. Try reading 1984 and try and imagine yourself making it through Winston's reconditioning unaffected.

The other way of forcing people to do things is to condition them before they even have a chance to develop thier will. This is pretty much what our civilization is built upon.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505110 - 10/10/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

First of all, these are not behaviorists, these are Christians. :lol:
And even for those who choose to believe in hell and heaven and the entire story, it is still THEIR CHOICE not to burn in hell. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505114 - 10/10/07 12:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Christians are not behaviourists as much as marxists aren't. Ha!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Veritas]
    #7505121 - 10/10/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That is a good point.

Although not currently in the range of what is possible, we will soon be able to cause actions (even complex actions) to happen though electrical connections made in the brain or just along the nerves.

It wouldn't really be you doing the action, however, especially not in the case where simple nerve signals are generated.

In the other case (implantation directly into the brain) it would be kind of borderline...on the one hand "you" wouldn't be initiating the actions (at least your conscious self) but on the other hand your body would be performing the actions (including initiating muscle movements in the brain).

I wonder what all this says of free will?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505123 - 10/10/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If I went and painted you house red during the late afternoon, as you just went to bed.
I would force you to sleep in a red house...

Even if it was green! ;p


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7505130 - 10/10/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The other way of forcing people to do things is to condition them before they even have a chance to develop thier will. This is pretty much what our civilization is built upon.




Yes this is true.
But after we grow up we're not "blind" to the world anymore. We all have the ability to see a multitude of ways of living and then we have the opportunity to improve ourselves. I think that after a certain age and experience (things that we all reach somehow), we can't really say that we're not responsible for our own persons anymore. And if we do so, it is because we choose not to face our fears.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505133 - 10/10/07 12:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So you are separating mind from body than? You body is not you? People are some mysterious electrical impulse that happens inside the brain and do not include thier entire physiology in identity of self? Hmm...questionable...


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505140 - 10/10/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

The other way of forcing people to do things is to condition them before they even have a chance to develop thier will. This is pretty much what our civilization is built upon.




Yes this is true.
But after we grow up we're not "blind" to the world anymore. We all have the ability to see a multitude of ways of living and then we have the opportunity to improve ourselves. I think that after a certain age and experience (things that we all reach somehow), we can't really say that we're not responsible for our own persons anymore. And if we do so, it is because we choose not to face our fears.




So you're saying that we have fears 'forced' on us and that we have the opportunity to 'face' our fears, those we can perceive, if we are strong enough to attempt such, let alone succeed.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505144 - 10/10/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

LOL ..

People see only what they chose too..


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Cherk]
    #7505145 - 10/10/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
die
you could make me die




Genius.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505147 - 10/10/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think, "could you be forced to do something against your will?" is a fair question, because "will" generally implies free will or at least conscious choice. So, by definition, it would be impossible to force someone to do something against their will.

But, I'm no fan of will...

There are various models of human behavior: Hull's drive reduction theory, psychoanalytic theory, humanistic theory, etc - the common ground for all these theories is that they're based on drives. A drive is basically a need that has to be fulfilled in order for the organism to function properly. Some theories have many drives, such as Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and others only have a few, such as in psychoanalytic theory where the main drive is libido.

Basically, I see the brain as a computational system that is responsible for creating and coordinating the behavior that is needed to fulfill these drives. I believe human beings have many drives and some of these drives naturally come into conflict. Some drives need to be fulfilled at the expense of others. (I hate to say it, but food is more important than sex.)

To make a person perform a specific behavior, all you need to do is create an environment where one or more drives cannot be fulfilled without performing that behavior. The rationalizations the person invents for performing this behavior is irrelevant. Genetic dispositions and learning may make it easier or harder to control a person, but an environment can be created that is so manipulative that the person has no option but to be controlled by it.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505152 - 10/10/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

The other way of forcing people to do things is to condition them before they even have a chance to develop thier will. This is pretty much what our civilization is built upon.




Yes this is true.
But after we grow up we're not "blind" to the world anymore. We all have the ability to see a multitude of ways of living and then we have the opportunity to improve ourselves. I think that after a certain age and experience (things that we all reach somehow), we can't really say that we're not responsible for our own persons anymore. And if we do so, it is because we choose not to face our fears.




I agree with you, but I also think that sometimes people don't break with thier conditioning out of simple ignorance. Some people never face a moment where it becomes possible to choose something else, they just sort of skip through life and nothing ever really shocks them or challenges them so they never face the choice of becoming self-reflective and developing thier authentic selves. If one never faces a moment of opportunity to change, this is blameless. When one recognizes the possibility, but chooses against accepting the challenge, that is what you are talking about.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505163 - 10/10/07 12:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

At my rape trial, I used the old, 'can't make anyone do something against their will' defense. I am still filing appeals...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7505169 - 10/10/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

All of this brings up several questions beyond the scope of the thread:

How free is free will? Do we even have it? How do we define it?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7505170 - 10/10/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
At my rape trial, I used the old, 'can't make anyone do something against their will' defense. I am still filing appeals...




Good point, although I wished you used a different example...


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505173 - 10/10/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Rather that forcing someone to take action against their will, why not manipulate their will so they do it on their own. Ah working in the corporate environment....I need a new job.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7505179 - 10/10/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So you are separating mind from body than?

Yes.

You body is not you?

No, that's not the same thing. Your body will go on existing after "you" have died (albeit with increasing decomposition), so it is not exactly "you" (or not the whole you), but likewise you cannot exist without your body.

People are some mysterious electrical impulse that happens inside the brain and do not include thier entire physiology in identity of self?

What is so mysterious about electrical impulses? See Maxwell et al.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7505180 - 10/10/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, that's what I was talking about.
It might be true that in some rare cases there are people which simply don't have this kind of opportunity, but I really think that these cases are extremely unusual.
Usually what happens is that, until one develops a Will of their own, they get used to the limited comfort they're living in. When they begin suspecting that there are more efficient ways to live their lives and they they can always work on improving themselves, they choose not to because the amount of work is huge and it takes a lot of time and courage. And now we're already talking about the existence of a free choice.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #7505209 - 10/10/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Rather that forcing someone to take action against their will, why not manipulate their will so they do it on their own. Ah working in the corporate environment....I need a new job.




I'm sure everybody wants a corner office with a view. However, against their will, they have to succeed in jumping the hurdle first.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505217 - 10/10/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:

No, that's not the same thing. Your body will go on existing after "you" have died (albeit with increasing decomposition), so it is not exactly "you" (or not the whole you), but likewise you cannot exist without your body.




That's an interesting reversal of the usual mind/body split which tends to argue that 'you' continue on after your 'body' has died.

But it doesn't make any sense. When you die, there is a corpse. People still identify your corpse with you, it is just no longer animated and probably less fun to hang out with. When you are dead, you are buried in a grave.

This is a difficult subject to talk about in English as our whole language is built around the notion of mind/body dualism. I find myself constantly annoyed by the way it's impossible to avoid refering to oneself in a dualistic manner... 'my body is telling me to eat such and such...' so annoying.


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505228 - 10/10/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So you're saying that we have fears 'forced' on us and that we have the opportunity to 'face' our fears, those we can perceive, if we are strong enough to attempt such, let alone succeed.




I am saying that, for example, as kids we are not aware of what we learn from our parents. Children mainly copy whatever they see their parents doing because that's how life works in those situations. They need to have a base and they absorb whatever is being offered to them. Early years are formative.
But when we grow up everything changes and our awareness grows, it becomes only up to us whether we choose to grow as persons or not.
I don't think that it all breaks down on being strong enough or not, since the notion of being strong leaves room for further interpretation. In this case, the lack of strength can be viewed as a handicap and a handicap eliminates from personal responsibility.
It is only a matter of choice. What's more important to a certain individual: to keep living in the same patterns, even if they know it's self limiting, or deal with their fears but in the same time being aware of the huge reward that's beyond it: freedom. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505237 - 10/10/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Yes, that's what I was talking about.
It might be true that in some rare cases there are people which simply don't have this kind of opportunity, but I really think that these cases are extremely unusual.
Usually what happens is that, until one develops a Will of their own, they get used to the limited comfort they're living in. When they begin suspecting that there are more efficient ways to live their lives and they they can always work on improving themselves, they choose not to because the amount of work is huge and it takes a lot of time and courage. And now we're already talking about the existence of a free choice.




Alright, I concede. As long as we agree that there are cases in which people just sort of slide through life and are simply never faced with choosing. Usually some opportunity happens by early adulthood, but for someone who never experiences anything unpleasant or wrong in thier life, they probably won't have to think too hard about making choices. I agree, however, that people usually choose not to face themselves and the work that needs doing to discover authenticity, and make all kinds of excuses for staying in what Heigdegger called 'fallen average everydayness.' It's a lot easier.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505249 - 10/10/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I figured I'd throw this in here too...

"When I analyze the process that is expressed in the sentence, “I think,” I find a whole series of daring assertions that would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to prove; for example, that it is I who think, that there must necessarily be something that thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of a being who is thought of as a cause, that there is an “ego,” and, finally, that it is already determined what is to be designated by thinking -- that I know what thinking is. For if I had not already decided within myself what it is, by what standard could I determine whether that which is just happening is not perhaps “willing” or “feeling?” In short, the assertion “I think” assumes that I compare my state at the present moment with other states of myself which I know, in order to determine what it is.

A thought comes when “it” wishes, and when “I” wish, so that it is a falsification of the facts of the case to say that the subject “I” is the condition of the predicate “think.” It thinks; but that this “it” is precisely the famous old “ego” is, to put it mildly, only a supposition, an assertion, and assuredly not an “immediate certainty.” After all, one has gone too far with this “it thinks” -- even the “it” contains an interpretation of the process, and does not belong to the process itself. One infers here according to the grammatical habit: ‘Thinking is an activity; every activity requires an agent; consequently-"

--Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505256 - 10/10/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Let me give a personal example...

When I had my stroke, the blood pressed outwards into an area of my brain used for speech and speech recognition (Wernicke's area). My comprehension skills stayed the same, but my speech skills were dramatically affected. I had something called "receptive aphasia" where I could think of the right words to use in a sentence but would say something completely different.

Now that wasn't someone forcing me to say the wrong things...but what if you simulated the damage in a healthy person?

It is a strange sensation, thinking one thing and saying another thing entirely :wink:

(I'm fine now, by the way)


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505268 - 10/10/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It is a strange sensation, thinking one thing and saying another thing entirely




Like a politician?


--------------------


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505370 - 10/10/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

So you're saying that we have fears 'forced' on us and that we have the opportunity to 'face' our fears, those we can perceive, if we are strong enough to attempt such, let alone succeed.




I am saying that, for example, as kids we are not aware of what we learn from our parents. Children mainly copy whatever they see their parents doing because that's how life works in those situations. They need to have a base and they absorb whatever is being offered to them. Early years are formative.
But when we grow up everything changes and our awareness grows, it becomes only up to us whether we choose to grow as persons or not.
I don't think that it all breaks down on being strong enough or not, since the notion of being strong leaves room for further interpretation. In this case, the lack of strength can be viewed as a handicap and a handicap eliminates from personal responsibility.
It is only a matter of choice. What's more important to a certain individual: to keep living in the same patterns, even if they know it's self limiting, or deal with their fears but in the same time being aware of the huge reward that's beyond it: freedom. :mushroom2:




when we grow up everything changes and our awareness grows,- What's this? an unsubstantiated assertion? (followed by): it becomes only up to us whether we choose to grow as persons or not. Who are you defending when you say the blame lays on the underdog for not having the strength to face up to it's overlord?

a handicap eliminates from personal responsibility.- is this the law being handed down, should I be inscribing stone tablets?

In light of this I hope you wont take offense if I say that I consider your testimony totally bollacks and subserviant to your overlord. (maybe you should take your own advice should you dare?)


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7505385 - 10/10/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

It is a strange sensation, thinking one thing and saying another thing entirely




Like a politician?




Is Randi politicaly inclined?


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505406 - 10/10/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
(maybe you should take your own advice should you dare?)




Oh, that's right, you have a handicap and therefore are exempt from responsibility, isn't this right?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505438 - 10/10/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

when we grow up everything changes and our awareness grows,- What's this? an unsubstantiated assertion?




No, it is observable with the naked eye.
As we mature and start experiencing life, we become more conscious of the entireness of our being. Learning more and being exposed to the new results in a growth of awareness.
What exactly did you find difficult to understand about that?

Quote:

it becomes only up to us whether we choose to grow as persons or not. Who are you defending when you say the blame lays on the underdog for not having the strength to face up to it's overlord?




Where was I defending or trying to place the blame on anyone? :what:
Maybe you should be more careful to what I was saying.
I was merely trying to explain a process.
Even if we are unaware and not responsible for what we're being taught in our childhood, when we grow up the situation changes and as a result we become the masters of our own lives. We become responsible for our actions.

Quote:

a handicap eliminates from personal responsibility.- is this the law being handed down, should I be inscribing stone tablets?

In light of this I hope you wont take offense if I say that I consider your testimony totally bollacks and subserviant to your overlord. (maybe you should take your own advice should you dare?)




To be honest I can't take offense because I don't think I really understand what you're trying to say. :lol:
Can you rephrase that?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505446 - 10/10/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Mushroomtrip is exempt from responsibility in these proceedings as substantiated by her own testimony. As such I demand that she step down from the witness stand and forbear from further participation. is that fair?


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505466 - 10/10/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

To be honest I can't take offense because I don't think I really understand what you're trying to say. :lol:
Can you rephrase that?


So that she can take offense.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505467 - 10/10/07 01:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
Mushroomtrip is exempt from responsibility in these proceedings as substantiated by her own testimony. As such I demand that she step down from the witness stand and forbear from further participation. is that fair?




Please disregard that statement since i have a peculiarity that forbids me from assuming the lotus position. As susch i wish the court note that I am exempt from personal responsibility. carry on.


Edited by Booby (10/10/07 01:52 PM)


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505480 - 10/10/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think you got is all wrong. :strokebeard:
The thing I was trying to emphasize earlier was the existence of personal responsibility. Now does that rely in any way to what you keep saying here?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505516 - 10/10/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I doubt you will consider the point of view that you are trying to distance yourself from any responsibility for what you may achieve with your testimony.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
In this case, the lack of strength can be viewed as a handicap and a handicap eliminates from personal responsibility.





Do you or do you not suffer from a speech impediment?


Edited by Booby (10/10/07 02:12 PM)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505584 - 10/10/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
I doubt you will consider the point of view that you are trying to distance yourself from any responsibility for what you may achieve with your testimony.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
In this case, the lack of strength can be viewed as a handicap and a handicap eliminates from personal responsibility.





Do you or do you not suffer from a speach impediment?




Ok you clearly misinterpreted what I said.
It was in response to you saying:

Quote:

if we are strong enough to attempt such, let alone succeed.




I said that I wouldn't necessarily call it strength. Because you hear a lot of people saying things like: "You can't blame him for that, he was not strong enough to do otherwise"
The matter of strength or the lack of it seems to become an acceptable excuse nowadays. People who are not being viewed as strong are usually treated with a higher degree of tolerance if not even charity. Now this kind of social response encourages people to indulge themselves in this impotence and find an excuse in it and this is far from being a healthy attitude.
Now you understand what I was trying to say?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505600 - 10/10/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Whatever you say it don't matter. State what you want, it don't matter. You're free. Ain't it wonderful?


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505677 - 10/10/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Based on this testimony I think it best an edit be circulated thru-out the realm and be posted: (particularly in schoolrooms) "On no account should anybody be held accountable for witness held against them."
that is all.


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505776 - 10/10/07 03:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
Whatever you say it don't matter. State what you want, it don't matter. You're free. Ain't it wonderful?




What really doesn't matter are posts like this. It's not debate, it's ducking and running.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Icelander]
    #7506007 - 10/10/07 04:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Tell it to Randi & associates.


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7506016 - 10/10/07 04:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm telling you. Ducking and running is lame.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Icelander]
    #7506034 - 10/10/07 04:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Randi is a midget. According to the testimony here Randi is not responsible for his contributions because he is handicapped. I am merely aknowledging that the handicapped are not responsible for their testimony. How is this ducking and running?


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7506051 - 10/10/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Whatever you say it don't matter. State what you want, it don't matter.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Icelander]
    #7506069 - 10/10/07 04:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thankyou and I extend the same courtesy to you. Namaste.


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Icelander]
    #7506153 - 10/10/07 04:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Tell us your handicap,; Can't you whistle? Maybe your feet are too big to fit into shoes. Or your brain protrudes from your skull. You must have some handicap that precludes you from prosecution.


Edited by Booby (10/10/07 04:37 PM)


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7506700 - 10/10/07 07:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Is torturing and physically altering someone really letting that person use their free will to their full capacity....?
When is the full capacity for free will lost....?
And at what capacity % does it have to be before it is not considered free will anymore....?
10% vs 90%
51% vs 49%....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7509298 - 10/11/07 03:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

well what about not leaving it all open?


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7509401 - 10/11/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Tell it to Randi & associates."


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7509422 - 10/11/07 03:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Booby said:
Tell us your handicap,; Can't you whistle? Maybe your feet are too big to fit into shoes. Or your brain protrudes from your skull. You must have some handicap that precludes you from prosecution.




Sorry I'm a perfect specimen of god like male.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7509658 - 10/11/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i dont think god would continually manifest all this shit just to do it
shit has purpose


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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