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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Veritas]
    #7505121 - 10/10/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

That is a good point.

Although not currently in the range of what is possible, we will soon be able to cause actions (even complex actions) to happen though electrical connections made in the brain or just along the nerves.

It wouldn't really be you doing the action, however, especially not in the case where simple nerve signals are generated.

In the other case (implantation directly into the brain) it would be kind of borderline...on the one hand "you" wouldn't be initiating the actions (at least your conscious self) but on the other hand your body would be performing the actions (including initiating muscle movements in the brain).

I wonder what all this says of free will?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505123 - 10/10/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If I went and painted you house red during the late afternoon, as you just went to bed.
I would force you to sleep in a red house...

Even if it was green! ;p


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7505130 - 10/10/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The other way of forcing people to do things is to condition them before they even have a chance to develop thier will. This is pretty much what our civilization is built upon.




Yes this is true.
But after we grow up we're not "blind" to the world anymore. We all have the ability to see a multitude of ways of living and then we have the opportunity to improve ourselves. I think that after a certain age and experience (things that we all reach somehow), we can't really say that we're not responsible for our own persons anymore. And if we do so, it is because we choose not to face our fears.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505133 - 10/10/07 12:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So you are separating mind from body than? You body is not you? People are some mysterious electrical impulse that happens inside the brain and do not include thier entire physiology in identity of self? Hmm...questionable...


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505140 - 10/10/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

The other way of forcing people to do things is to condition them before they even have a chance to develop thier will. This is pretty much what our civilization is built upon.




Yes this is true.
But after we grow up we're not "blind" to the world anymore. We all have the ability to see a multitude of ways of living and then we have the opportunity to improve ourselves. I think that after a certain age and experience (things that we all reach somehow), we can't really say that we're not responsible for our own persons anymore. And if we do so, it is because we choose not to face our fears.




So you're saying that we have fears 'forced' on us and that we have the opportunity to 'face' our fears, those we can perceive, if we are strong enough to attempt such, let alone succeed.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505144 - 10/10/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

LOL ..

People see only what they chose too..


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Cherk]
    #7505145 - 10/10/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

cherokee said:
die
you could make me die




Genius.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505147 - 10/10/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think, "could you be forced to do something against your will?" is a fair question, because "will" generally implies free will or at least conscious choice. So, by definition, it would be impossible to force someone to do something against their will.

But, I'm no fan of will...

There are various models of human behavior: Hull's drive reduction theory, psychoanalytic theory, humanistic theory, etc - the common ground for all these theories is that they're based on drives. A drive is basically a need that has to be fulfilled in order for the organism to function properly. Some theories have many drives, such as Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and others only have a few, such as in psychoanalytic theory where the main drive is libido.

Basically, I see the brain as a computational system that is responsible for creating and coordinating the behavior that is needed to fulfill these drives. I believe human beings have many drives and some of these drives naturally come into conflict. Some drives need to be fulfilled at the expense of others. (I hate to say it, but food is more important than sex.)

To make a person perform a specific behavior, all you need to do is create an environment where one or more drives cannot be fulfilled without performing that behavior. The rationalizations the person invents for performing this behavior is irrelevant. Genetic dispositions and learning may make it easier or harder to control a person, but an environment can be created that is so manipulative that the person has no option but to be controlled by it.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505152 - 10/10/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

The other way of forcing people to do things is to condition them before they even have a chance to develop thier will. This is pretty much what our civilization is built upon.




Yes this is true.
But after we grow up we're not "blind" to the world anymore. We all have the ability to see a multitude of ways of living and then we have the opportunity to improve ourselves. I think that after a certain age and experience (things that we all reach somehow), we can't really say that we're not responsible for our own persons anymore. And if we do so, it is because we choose not to face our fears.




I agree with you, but I also think that sometimes people don't break with thier conditioning out of simple ignorance. Some people never face a moment where it becomes possible to choose something else, they just sort of skip through life and nothing ever really shocks them or challenges them so they never face the choice of becoming self-reflective and developing thier authentic selves. If one never faces a moment of opportunity to change, this is blameless. When one recognizes the possibility, but chooses against accepting the challenge, that is what you are talking about.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505163 - 10/10/07 12:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

At my rape trial, I used the old, 'can't make anyone do something against their will' defense. I am still filing appeals...


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7505169 - 10/10/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

All of this brings up several questions beyond the scope of the thread:

How free is free will? Do we even have it? How do we define it?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7505170 - 10/10/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
At my rape trial, I used the old, 'can't make anyone do something against their will' defense. I am still filing appeals...




Good point, although I wished you used a different example...


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505173 - 10/10/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Rather that forcing someone to take action against their will, why not manipulate their will so they do it on their own. Ah working in the corporate environment....I need a new job.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7505179 - 10/10/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

So you are separating mind from body than?

Yes.

You body is not you?

No, that's not the same thing. Your body will go on existing after "you" have died (albeit with increasing decomposition), so it is not exactly "you" (or not the whole you), but likewise you cannot exist without your body.

People are some mysterious electrical impulse that happens inside the brain and do not include thier entire physiology in identity of self?

What is so mysterious about electrical impulses? See Maxwell et al.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #7505180 - 10/10/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, that's what I was talking about.
It might be true that in some rare cases there are people which simply don't have this kind of opportunity, but I really think that these cases are extremely unusual.
Usually what happens is that, until one develops a Will of their own, they get used to the limited comfort they're living in. When they begin suspecting that there are more efficient ways to live their lives and they they can always work on improving themselves, they choose not to because the amount of work is huge and it takes a lot of time and courage. And now we're already talking about the existence of a free choice.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBooby
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #7505209 - 10/10/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Rather that forcing someone to take action against their will, why not manipulate their will so they do it on their own. Ah working in the corporate environment....I need a new job.




I'm sure everybody wants a corner office with a view. However, against their will, they have to succeed in jumping the hurdle first.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505217 - 10/10/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:

No, that's not the same thing. Your body will go on existing after "you" have died (albeit with increasing decomposition), so it is not exactly "you" (or not the whole you), but likewise you cannot exist without your body.




That's an interesting reversal of the usual mind/body split which tends to argue that 'you' continue on after your 'body' has died.

But it doesn't make any sense. When you die, there is a corpse. People still identify your corpse with you, it is just no longer animated and probably less fun to hang out with. When you are dead, you are buried in a grave.

This is a difficult subject to talk about in English as our whole language is built around the notion of mind/body dualism. I find myself constantly annoyed by the way it's impossible to avoid refering to oneself in a dualistic manner... 'my body is telling me to eat such and such...' so annoying.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: Booby]
    #7505228 - 10/10/07 12:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So you're saying that we have fears 'forced' on us and that we have the opportunity to 'face' our fears, those we can perceive, if we are strong enough to attempt such, let alone succeed.




I am saying that, for example, as kids we are not aware of what we learn from our parents. Children mainly copy whatever they see their parents doing because that's how life works in those situations. They need to have a base and they absorb whatever is being offered to them. Early years are formative.
But when we grow up everything changes and our awareness grows, it becomes only up to us whether we choose to grow as persons or not.
I don't think that it all breaks down on being strong enough or not, since the notion of being strong leaves room for further interpretation. In this case, the lack of strength can be viewed as a handicap and a handicap eliminates from personal responsibility.
It is only a matter of choice. What's more important to a certain individual: to keep living in the same patterns, even if they know it's self limiting, or deal with their fears but in the same time being aware of the huge reward that's beyond it: freedom. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505237 - 10/10/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Yes, that's what I was talking about.
It might be true that in some rare cases there are people which simply don't have this kind of opportunity, but I really think that these cases are extremely unusual.
Usually what happens is that, until one develops a Will of their own, they get used to the limited comfort they're living in. When they begin suspecting that there are more efficient ways to live their lives and they they can always work on improving themselves, they choose not to because the amount of work is huge and it takes a lot of time and courage. And now we're already talking about the existence of a free choice.




Alright, I concede. As long as we agree that there are cases in which people just sort of slide through life and are simply never faced with choosing. Usually some opportunity happens by early adulthood, but for someone who never experiences anything unpleasant or wrong in thier life, they probably won't have to think too hard about making choices. I agree, however, that people usually choose not to face themselves and the work that needs doing to discover authenticity, and make all kinds of excuses for staying in what Heigdegger called 'fallen average everydayness.' It's a lot easier.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is it possible to "force" a person do something? [Re: trendal]
    #7505249 - 10/10/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I figured I'd throw this in here too...

"When I analyze the process that is expressed in the sentence, “I think,” I find a whole series of daring assertions that would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to prove; for example, that it is I who think, that there must necessarily be something that thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of a being who is thought of as a cause, that there is an “ego,” and, finally, that it is already determined what is to be designated by thinking -- that I know what thinking is. For if I had not already decided within myself what it is, by what standard could I determine whether that which is just happening is not perhaps “willing” or “feeling?” In short, the assertion “I think” assumes that I compare my state at the present moment with other states of myself which I know, in order to determine what it is.

A thought comes when “it” wishes, and when “I” wish, so that it is a falsification of the facts of the case to say that the subject “I” is the condition of the predicate “think.” It thinks; but that this “it” is precisely the famous old “ego” is, to put it mildly, only a supposition, an assertion, and assuredly not an “immediate certainty.” After all, one has gone too far with this “it thinks” -- even the “it” contains an interpretation of the process, and does not belong to the process itself. One infers here according to the grammatical habit: ‘Thinking is an activity; every activity requires an agent; consequently-"

--Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil


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