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OfflineCaRnAgECaNdYS
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Recognize the Armenian genocide
    #7504541 - 10/10/07 08:13 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

...and you will get cut, from the BBC. Heh, something makes me think it will suddenly be 'inconvenient' to recognize that particular genocide, just as convenient as it is to think that Christopher Columbus was the Great discoverer of the New World.

    Turkey warns US over genocide law. Armenians say many of them died in the systematic deportations. Turkey has warned the US that bilateral ties will suffer if Washington adopts a bill recognizing as genocide the Ottoman empire's killings of Armenians.

  In a letter to US President George W Bush, Turkish President Abdullah Gul said "serious problems" would emerge if US lawmakers passed the bill. The US House Foreign Affairs Committee is due to discuss the bill this week.

    Ankara rejects Armenian claims that the deaths of some 1.5m Armenians in 1915-17 amounted to genocide.  It admits that many Armenians were killed, but says the deaths were a result of widespread wartime fighting in Turkey during World War I. Armenians have campaigned for the killings to be recognized internationally as genocide. Some countries have done so.

  "Negative effects" In his letter, President Gul "drew attention to the serious problems that will emerge in bilateral relations if the bill is adopted," his office said in a statement.  :crazy: Separately, Parliament Speaker Koksal Toptan warned that "it might take decades to heal negative effects" if the motion was passed.

  "Then, it will be difficult to control the dynamics triggered by Turkish public reaction," Mr Toptan said in a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.  Other Turkish leaders have indicated that Ankara could consider blocking Washington's use of a key military base in Turkey that provides logistical support in Iraq and Afghanistan.

  The House foreign affairs committee is expected to debate the bill on Wednesday. If it is approved, Democratic Speaker Nancy Pelosi may allow a vote. However, it would have no binding effect on US foreign policy. Similar bills in 2000 and 2005 were blocked by senior US politicians. Last year, Turkey cut military co-operation with France after the French parliament passed a bill to make denial of the Armenian genocide an offense - even though it never became law.


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The secret to being funny is to say smart things stupidly, or is it stupid things smartly? Whatever..it's not rocket surgery...or something like that.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #7504722 - 10/10/07 09:56 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

fuck Turkey.

if they want to cut us off, they can stop buying arms from us also.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7505187 - 10/10/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What the hell does turkey provide for us anyway?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Maverick]
    #7505398 - 10/10/07 01:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

nice rugs


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Maverick]
    #7505526 - 10/10/07 02:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"they are a strategic partner in the global war on terror"


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #7506427 - 10/10/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I posted about the Armenian genocide here a few years ago and a couple Turkish Shroomerites got on my ass about it.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #7506497 - 10/10/07 06:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It disgusts me how they try to hide the Armenian genocide, Its alright cause Turkey is filled to the brim with al qaeda wannabe's just lookin to collapse their secular government.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: Redstorm]
    #7506867 - 10/10/07 08:10 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

Reason for deletion: ---


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7507111 - 10/10/07 09:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The Japanese have never apologized for the rape of Nanking...


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: BrAiN]
    #7507311 - 10/10/07 10:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7507365 - 10/10/07 10:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'll add these to things I won't hold my breath for...


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #7509076 - 10/11/07 02:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #7509459 - 10/11/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Regardless of what Turkey or any other country did or did not do in the past, why is it so important for congress to waste time passing resolutions about it? Don't we have enough problems that need fixing? Why create more problems by mucking up the history books with politics? I guess it is easier to piss off Turkey than figure out how to fix the problems we created in Iraq. I wish congress would do their job and let the historians decide what should go into the history books.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7509608 - 10/11/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Turkey certainly committed genocide, but I agree that this resolution serves no purpose other then to rile up Turkey. The Turkey - Iraq situation has been made more precarious because of this.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7509926 - 10/11/07 06:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

there's probably a few districts with strong Armenian ties that have
been pressuring their local reps (Burbank, CA).

the Armenian swing vote is crucial this election season!


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7510081 - 10/11/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I second that.


Why the fuck would Congress do the jobs they are supposed to do? I think its much more important to pass a worthless resolution on Rush Limbaugh!!!!! I mean, fuck, thats what this country is all about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #7510133 - 10/11/07 06:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We oughtta pass a resolution to prohibit passing frivelous resolutions that accomplish nothing really...


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7510376 - 10/11/07 07:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

what would congress do!?


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7510481 - 10/11/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
what would congress do!?




good point.


But otherwise today looks like Turkey terminated Boeings contract, maybe thats why Bush is so hot in the pants on this resolution.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/10/11/boeing-turkey-congress-markets-equity-cx_bw_1011markets40.html

Quote:

WASHINGTON - Boeing could lose more than a billion dollars worth of defense contracts with Turkey if the House of Representatives adopts a resolution to label as genocide the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks nearly a century ago, a State Department official indicated Thursday.

R. Stephen Beecroft, executive assistant to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, told reporters traveling to Russia and the Middle East with the secretary that Turkey would consider canceling its Boeing (nyse: BA - news - people ) contracts if the House passes the measure, which could be voted upon as early as next week.

The Bush administration has lobbied fervently against the resolution, which has touched a raw nerve for Turkey, a strategic Muslim ally of the United States in both the war on terror and in Iraq. On Thursday, Ankara recalled its ambassador to the U.S. for consultations, though he is expected to be back in Washington within a week to 10 days, the Associated Press reported.






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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7510590 - 10/11/07 08:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

they are one of the largest clients of american arms and military
exports.

granted, there are more suppliers in that market these dies (china
and russia).

[edit: great freudian slip...I meant "these days"]

on the one hand, congress making this an issue is a pure joke...do
something useful with your time ffs, but on the other it's yet another
case of corporate profits affecting policy in american politics.

what do I give a fuck if a few american arms dealers lose a rich
customer because we decided to call a spade a spade?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


Edited by afoaf (10/11/07 08:24 PM)


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7510709 - 10/11/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
there's probably a few districts with strong Armenian ties that have
been pressuring their local reps (Burbank, CA).

the Armenian swing vote is crucial this election season!




Who HASN'T COMMITED genocide? I mean c'mon. I just wiped 1,000 sperm right off of existence this morning.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Maverick]
    #7510980 - 10/11/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DRTMaverick said:
What the hell does turkey provide for us anyway?



turkish airlines is one of the best. unlimited free booze even in economy class :thumbup:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Arp]
    #7511616 - 10/13/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

that's a lot of airlines if you take an international flight actually


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: TheCow]
    #7512456 - 10/13/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Reading all of the comments, especially from the Bush administration, regarding how this resolution threatens our ability to wage war in Iraq, it seems clear that this is the means of the Democrats to work agansit the war, failing their inability to work agansit it in straight-forward ways.

Brilliant, and it supports history, as well. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7512474 - 10/13/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

I posted about the Armenian genocide here a few years ago and a couple Turkish Shroomerites got on my ass about it.




Can you link that? I'm just curious of their reason(s) for being so upset by history.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4889522#4889522


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7515154 - 10/14/07 09:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

For your info:


http://www.downsizedc.org/read_the_laws.shtml

(I do support them in monetary units)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7516184 - 10/14/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> Brilliant, and it supports history, as well. :thumbup:

Brilliant?  You don't cut off your foot because you stubbed your toe.  Brilliant would have been cutting the funding forcing and end to the conflict without pissing off one of the few friendly middle eastern countries.  Too bad they brilliantly voted to continue funding the war.  Why is it brilliant for politicians to be writing history?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7518386 - 10/15/07 04:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fresh quotes about this issue... lets see how brilliant Pelosi can be:

Quote:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Sunday that she intends to move ahead with a vote on a resolution that labels the deaths of more than a million Armenians during World War I as genocide.




Great... why, exactly?

Quote:

"This resolution is one that is consistent with what our government has always said about ... what happened at that time," Pelosi said on ABC's "This Week."




So our government is consistent in passing resolutions to define what happened in history rather than letting history speak for itself? Glad to know that she is in the "lets rewrite history through legislation" camp rather than "let history speak for itself camp".

(Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but why do we need a resolution stating something that should be left to academics to debate?)

So why is it important now and not for the last 90 years?

Quote:

Because many of the survivors are very old.




Great reason. Old age.

So why didn't she try to pass a resolution in the past?

Quote:

When I came to Congress 20 years ago, it wasn't the right time because of the Soviet Union. Then that fell, and then it wasn't the right time because of the Gulf War One. And then it wasn't the right time because of overflights of Iraq. And now it's not the right time because of Gulf War Two.




Perhaps it isn't the right time because it isn't something that congress should be doing at all.

So what is the real reason?

Quote:

Seventy percent of U.S. air cargo bound for Iraq passes over or through Turkey.




Brilliant. Too much of a douche to end the war like she promised those that voted for her, so instead, she is going to piss off one of the few friendly countries we have in the region to make it more difficult to fight. Bring the troops home, but don't fuck them over because you can't keep a campaign promise.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7518440 - 10/15/07 05:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not sure where I strand on this.

Even if it was a genocide (which I don't doubt), why are they waiting until NOW to pass the resolution? I think the democrats are just trying more subversive ways of sabotaging the war. Why don't the dems just suck it up, live up to their promises and cut the fucking funding on the war instead of trying to sabotage it in a cowardly way (Turkey's already threatened to invade northern Iraq).


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: BrAiN]
    #7518457 - 10/15/07 06:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> why are they waiting until NOW to pass the resolution?

According to Pelosi, there are two reasons.  People effected by the events are getting old (actually, only a handful of them are still alive, and they would have been babies at the time) and in the past, the time just wasn't right, but now it is.

>  I think the democrats are just trying more subversive ways of sabotaging the war.

Yep, because they were incapable of ending the war the way they promised in the last election.  Cowards.  They won't stand up to Bush, so instead, they sacrifice the soldiers stuck over their like pawns on a chessboard by making the region more dangerous and taking away resupply lines.  Brilliant! :rolleyes:

> Turkey's already threatened to invade northern Iraq

And rightly so, as they are getting attacked by northern Iraq.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7518476 - 10/15/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

More proof of how useless the Democrats are (Not that repuvblicans are any better).


Last November I was actually really trilled when the Democrats finally took back Congress.


Now I'm back to falling sleep when I watch the news.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7519040 - 10/15/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Brilliant?  You don't cut off your foot because you stubbed your toe.




So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations? :strokebeard:

Quote:


  Brilliant would have been cutting the funding forcing and end to the conflict without pissing off one of the few friendly middle eastern countries. 




Brilliant isn't the word for that; I believe the word is impossible.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7519161 - 10/15/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
So our government is consistent in passing resolutions to define what happened in history rather than letting history speak for itself?  Glad to know that she is in the "lets rewrite history through legislation" camp rather than "let history speak for itself camp".




History doesn't speak for itself when there are forces that seek to manipulate history - our government, coupled with the number of governments that have already done so, passing such a resolution applies diplomatic pressure on a government that attempts to shrug history off. For one thing, I don't understand how passing a resolution that states that a country recognizes an oppression of a group of people "rewrites" history - sounds like formal acknowledgement of history to me. :strokebeard:

This is a pretty standard means of diplomacy, certainly not unprecedented. I think it is important that governments formally acknowledge such transgressions upon the civil rights of human beings. It is a means by which history cannot be forgotten by governments, hopefully preventing genocide in the future. :wink:

Quote:


So why didn't she try to pass a resolution in the past?




I am almost certain that this isn't the first time it has come up.

Quote:


Perhaps it isn't the right time because it isn't something that congress should be doing at all.




Why not?

Quote:


Brilliant.  Too much of a douche to end the war like she promised those that voted for her, so instead, she is going to piss off one of the few friendly countries we have in the region to make it more difficult to fight.  Bring the troops home, but don't fuck them over because you can't keep a campaign promise.




Everyone realizes that the Democrats do not command enough of a majority to end the war out right. I don't understand how Turkey being removed as a point from which we supply the war could be construed as her "fucking the troops over" - sounds just like "we can't stop funding the war because it will hurt our troops".

How would she be fucking them over, exactly? :sherlock: If a military officer sends troops into warfare without adequate supplies, it is them who fuck the troops over, but I'm sure they'd love to evade responsibility and say it was Nancy Pelosi. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519182 - 10/15/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations?

Such a shallow view.  There is much more to the picture than Turkey as a military stepping stone.

> Brilliant isn't the word for that; I believe the word is impossible.

It wasn't impossible when they made the campaign promises.  How many voted to continue funding the war after they got elected?  :strokebeard:

I find it absurd to screw over relations with one of the few middle eastern countries that still have good will towards the US just to put a thorn in Bush.  I find it frightening that the history books are being written by congressional resolution, rather than academic research, just to put a thorn in Bush.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519204 - 10/15/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think you've overlooked a couple important points.

Regarding 'rewriting history', there are many people who believe that this did
not occur as the Armenians propose it did...that the casualties were an
unfortunate side effect of war.

Do a google search for 'armenian genocide' and 'armenian genocide lie' and
read the arguments presented by both sides...neither appear outwardly
polished, professional or substantiated, but each side has their claims
nonetheless.

Why does this singular memo that the Armenians present as proof of government
sanctioned genocide contain spelling and grammatical errors? Why won't they
present it for independent review when they have it in their possession in
the UK?

I don't understand how Turkey being removed as a point from which we supply the
war could be construed as her "fucking the troops over"


By some estimates, nearly 70% of our soldier's beans, bullets and bulletproof
vests get to Iraq via air and sea ports. Turkey is the primary logistical hub
for this war.

Sure, you can argue that the troops were sent in undergeared, this is not
necessarily germane to the argument that jeopardizing Incirlik and the ports
on the mediterranean means Pelosi's congress is exacerbating an already bad
situation and may just be a really underhanded way of dissolving this conflict.

Instead of through policy and diplomacy it looks as though congress is ramrodding
a trivial bill through in an effort to weaken the war's infrastructure. The
costs of this approach will be borne primarily by the troops on the ground.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7519324 - 10/15/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations?

Such a shallow view.  There is much more to the picture than Turkey as a military stepping stone.




A question is not a view. I realize there is much more to the picture. You stated that we would be cutting off our own foot, I asked how. You tell me. :wink:

Quote:


It wasn't impossible when they made the campaign promises.  How many voted to continue funding the war after they got elected?  :strokebeard:




:shrug: All I stated was that it would be impossible. I don't have voting figures in front of me, but I'm not concerned with that, as all I've suggested was that utilizing a diplomatic move to interfere with the logistics of the war is a strategic, intelligent maneuver. :hehehe:

Quote:


I find it absurd to screw over relations with one of the few middle eastern countries that still have good will towards the US just to put a thorn in Bush.




It sounds like one of the few Middle Eastern countries that is more willing to work with us in beneficial ways is willing to screw over relations with us if we acknowledge history for what it is, not the other way around. I think it is irresponsible of the United States to not acknowledge an act of pronounced, deliberate human suffering in order to have our back scratched.

Forty states of this country have resolutions formally acknowledging the Armenian genocide as historical truth. I think it would only make sense that the federal government represented the people's interest in acknowledging that we recognize history. If the Turkish government does not wish to do business with us because we will not avert our eyes to what has occured in the past, when they could simply acknowledge it and move on, then they are the ones who are screwing over relations. The United States formally recognizes all of our genocides and abuse of civil rights. Why is it so difficult for Turkey to do so? Perhaps when they realize that the world will not ignore history, they will come to terms with what has occured, and then we can move on and relate once more.

Quote:


  I find it frightening that the history books are being written by congressional resolution, rather than academic research, just to put a thorn in Bush.




Congress isn't writing any history books. :what:

Apparently the American people have read the history books and the academic research, and have chosen to have their representatives recognize that they have. I don't understand why you are frightened by that. :shrug:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7519348 - 10/15/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
Regarding 'rewriting history', there are many people who believe that this did
not occur as the Armenians propose it did...that the casualties were an
unfortunate side effect of war.




The awareness regarding the occurence is not resultant from Armenian proposals that it did. This isn't Armenian viewpoint vs. Turkish viewpoint.

Quote:


Do a google search for 'armenian genocide' and 'armenian genocide lie' and
read the arguments presented by both sides...neither appear outwardly
polished, professional or substantiated, but each side has their claims
nonetheless.




I've reviewed information accessed in this manner, and continue to do so.

Quote:


Instead of through policy and diplomacy it looks as though congress is ramrodding
a trivial bill through in an effort to weaken the war's infrastructure. The
costs of this approach will be borne primarily by the troops on the ground.




Only if those costs are transferred by the military, onto the troops on the ground.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519365 - 10/15/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

95% of all IED-proof vehicles being deployed to Iraq go through Turkey.

If Turkey decides to suddenly pull the plug on this there is an inherent
cost to rerouting and moving all the vehicles, fuel and supplies both in
terms of time and money.

Ultimately, regardless of how valiantly the army acts, this silly motion
being funded by a monied minority (approximately 1mil in the US) and passed
by a lame-duck congress has the potential to cost American servicemen their
lives.

Note, I'm not one to go down the path of O'Reilly where honest discourse
leads to 'risking the lives of US servicemen', but in this particular case
I think that Pelosi and team are being very short sighted...and for what?!

what sort of "moral superiority" does this really buy us when we are killing
civilians DAILY.

it's a farce.

it doesn't warrant time on the floor.

it's a distracting mini-wedge-issue.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7519417 - 10/15/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
95% of all IED-proof vehicles being deployed to Iraq go through Turkey.

If Turkey decides to suddenly pull the plug on this there is an inherent
cost to rerouting and moving all the vehicles, fuel and supplies both in
terms of time and money.




Clearly.

Quote:


Ultimately, regardless of how valiantly the army acts, this silly motion
being funded by a monied minority (approximately 1mil in the US) and passed
by a lame-duck congress has the potential to cost American servicemen their
lives.




Provided, of course, that the military exposes them to unnecessary risk.

Quote:


Note, I'm not one to go down the path of O'Reilly where honest discourse
leads to 'risking the lives of US servicemen', but in this particular case
I think that Pelosi and team are being very short sighted...and for what?!




In what way are they being short-sighted?


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If I should die this very moment
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519461 - 10/15/07 01:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

like the military doesn't already have enough to worry about, now they
have to reorganize their entire logistical chain because congress wants
to pass a bill recognizing a historically-questionable event?


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7519528 - 10/15/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations?

Such a shallow view.  There is much more to the picture than Turkey as a military stepping stone.

> Brilliant isn't the word for that; I believe the word is impossible.

It wasn't impossible when they made the campaign promises.  How many voted to continue funding the war after they got elected?  :strokebeard:

I find it absurd to screw over relations with one of the few middle eastern countries that still have good will towards the US just to put a thorn in Bush.  I find it frightening that the history books are being written by congressional resolution, rather than academic research, just to put a thorn in Bush.




Turkey is interesting. As much as they hate the United States.. they seem very similar to us in that...

We're both nations where a marjotiy of the people don't want religious nuts to be in office.. yet we keep voting for them. At least that's what I keep reading.

I always get confused when I read articles ansuch as one I read in in the Economist earlier this year that say the overwhelming majority of Turks want a secular gov't.. then I hear that the person they vote in is someone who wantefavors an Islamist state.

Either the Economist is full of shit... or the Turks as as ass backwards as we are.


Edited by BrAiN (10/15/07 01:49 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7519536 - 10/15/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
like the military doesn't already have enough to worry about, now they
have to reorganize their entire logistical chain because congress wants
to pass a bill recognizing a historically-questionable event?




No, they would have to reorganize their entire logistical chain because Turkey is not interested in relations with us if we acknowedge an occurence as genocide. Perhaps if waging war becomes too difficult and costly, prolonging our military presence in Iraq and other territories will no longer be such a concern to those who are interested in continuing the war. I don't think the difficulties the military has in waging war is, in any way, a pressing concern for the American people.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7967606 - 02/02/08 04:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

you are talking about the so called "armenian genocide" which i can lead you to some of the turkish sources about the subject , since i know armenian lobbies in u.s.a are working hard crying whining .
Lemme explain the situation to you briefly , while in world war I turkey was under attack from all sides , from the east they were fighting with russians , at the eastern part of turkey there used to be 1.5 million armenians . When russians attacked and they knew that turkey probably wouldnt stand this war , they agreed with russians and helped them while they are within our lands and they started turning against turkish people . When the situation changed and russians were beaten at east , turkey would like to concentrate its efforts on the enemies at west (greece and england). The russians are gone but 1.5 million armenians who helped them to kill turkish soldiers and who burnt and destroyed turkish villages were still there , so the government which was ottoman empire at those times not Turkey as known today took a decision to send these "COMBATANTS" out of land , since they had lots of troubles inside the country . What happened then is 1.5 million people started to move out of the land . Eastern part of turkey is known for its cold winters where temperatures can drop as low as -30 celcius degrees . On their way out of the country no turkish villages helped them by means of food or other things since they betrayed them , and the winter was so harsh at those times 70.000 people died because of these conditions out of 1.5 million . What is happening these days is this over 75 years armenia multiplied their loss by nearly 20 times , and they didnt bring this issue up when it happened because they knew that it was easier to prove what they have done . With every passing year they tried to bring this issue to international platforms .beginnin from 1930's and after that within every 5 or 10 year they increased the number of their losses . Their lost number were recorded every platform they brought this issue , and you can see through the years this number always kept increasing in 1930's they were claiming 120.000 people were killed those days , they are telling now that the number of people they have lost is 1.5 million which is non sense since the total population being moved away was that much . They are claiming this since in governmental relations the price of blood is only land . They are claiming this and bringing up at international platforms because they want land . this is as simple as it is . If in the first world war turkey was defeated eastern part of turkey would become a part of armenia as a result of their agreements with russians . Now that they have lost it they are trying to show themselves as the victims . Interesting isnt it , they are trying to win somethings either way they tried to fight they lost now that they are whining and saying genocide , and i tell you it was not it was self defence . No country would breed traitors while they have a lot of problems within their lands .
I justed wanted to give you the idea that Turkey is supporting , throughout this thread i have read many people saying i have no doubt that they did it" and something . Turkey is open to resolve anything scientifically by means of history but armenians are not accepting that . and since armenian lobby is strong in usa you people only hear about one side of the situation
To be perspective when judging an issue you should know both sides of the issue and i insist on it . If anyone would like to read a detailed version of this situation here is the link of it in english from turkey's point of view .

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html

please before posting anything try to read what i typed and what is written in the link .


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: airbender]
    #7967962 - 02/02/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Turkey is open to resolve anything scientifically by means of history




If that is the case, then what about this?

Quote:

Public prosecutors have utilized Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code prohibiting "insulting Turkishness" to silence some Turkish intellectuals who spoke of atrocities endured by Armenians in the last days of the Ottoman Empire. Turkish state officials say that no one is currently incarcerated for expressing their ideas, and that the law may soon be amended. The modern Turkish government continues to protest the formal recognition of the genocide by other countries.




Also, what about all the German testimony saying that they witnessed acts of genocide? There were American Diplomats, German military officers, Russian military officers in Anatolia, and Turkish officials themselves.

I'll leave you with this:

"I have issued the command — and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Redstorm]
    #7968133 - 02/02/08 10:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Hitler, no?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

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He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7968145 - 02/02/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes.


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Redstorm]
    #7968314 - 02/02/08 11:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It was politically inconvenient for the US to acknowledge the Armenian genocide because it antagonises Turkey, which according to the thinking of our policy makers, would further destabilise our geopolitical position in the Middle East. Turkey has been trying for years to subdue its rebellious Kurds who have been resisting the Turkish government and pushing for their own state since just after World War I when the Allies defaulted on their promise to grant them an independent state.

The Kurdish population spills over into Northern Iraq, which is where the US interest comes into play. As of now the US and Turkey both have shared interest in suppressing the Kurdish people and are very strong allies in this sense. The US has repeatedly allowed the Turkish military and air force to perform raids in the north of Iraq to chase down and weaken the PKK (Kurds).

The rationale was that if we were to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, which is a very sore issue for the Turks, it would be shooting ourselves in the foot and perhaps angering the Turkish government enough to drive a wedge between us, thus weakening our foothold in the Middle East. You can bet we want to keep as many allies as possible in that region to consolidate our hold over oil resources and strategically advantageous military positions.

Another interesting side effect from the domestic political standpoint was the White House's utter inability to stop Congress from passing the resolution. The State Department and diplomats went into massive damage control after this to essentially apologise to Turkey for passing the resolution.

We'll see how this pans out.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Maverick]
    #7969134 - 02/02/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DRTMaverick said:
What the hell does turkey provide for us anyway?




One of the few Muslim countries that are slightly secular, have a large number of people that understand and accept evolution, not religious fanatics. My friend went there on vacation too, said it was fucking awesome.

Their secularity is also the reason Israel is allied with them. They don't think that only Muslims should control that region and that is what most Muslim countries want.

There are some Turks that want the country to admit that a genocide occurred. However, we should not pass any legislations for the time being because we need them.

Not to mention they provide us with bases, supply routes, etc.

They are our true Muslim ally. FUCK SAUDI ARABIA. Those fuckers are psychotic cocksucking faggots who need regime change.


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 03:10 PM)


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
    #7969326 - 02/02/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We've got OTHER allies around there... uhh.... Jordan... and uhhh.. umm... hmmm...

hmmmmm


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: BrAiN]
    #7969348 - 02/02/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So you're saying Jordan is just as secular as Turkey? Does it's military state that it will make sure that religious fanatics know their place like the dogs they are?


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 04:39 PM)


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7969447 - 02/02/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969464 - 02/02/08 04:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We support free trade and the rule of law. You support victimhood and oppression. Nothing makes you happier than complaining. You WANT to be oppressed. Too bad you can't get it in the USA without paying.


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969470 - 02/02/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The US military per se doesn't "need" them [Turkish alliance] but the arrangement that the US and Turkish government is mutually beneficial. For one, they both have a common interest in subduing the Kurds and Turkey also purchases a whole lot of arms from Uncle Sam. It would make a whole mess of things from the US government perspective if Turkey were to detach itself from the orbit of US influence.


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7969480 - 02/02/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We like this too.
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0221636420080202
Quote:

Secular Turks rally against Muslim headscarf reform




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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969529 - 02/02/08 05:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

...being because we need them.




Who needs them? You & the neocons who want political & military control over the Middle East & it's oil? When you say "we" need them, just be clear that you are speaking for those in the U.S. who support war & imperialism, not those who oppose it.






Are you saying America shouldn't secure its resources? Shall we just fall over and die?


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7969549 - 02/02/08 05:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
    #7969559 - 02/02/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

...being because we need them.




Who needs them? You & the neocons who want political & military control over the Middle East & it's oil? When you say "we" need them, just be clear that you are speaking for those in the U.S. who support war & imperialism, not those who oppose it.






Are you saying America shouldn't secure its resources? Shall we just fall over and die?




To play devil's advocate... Would this really be falling over and dying if we didn't pay $2/gallon at the pump? Is it really worth throwing American lives into the meat grinder for cheaper gas? In Europe they pay close to $7/gallon and have thriving robust, economies... hardly falling over and dying.

Just trying to stir the proverbial pot...


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7969574 - 02/02/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969629 - 02/02/08 05:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

We support free trade and the rule of law.




No, you support "free trade" & the "rule of law" when it's convenient to you, but disregard it when it's not; a classical hypocrite.




And what imaginary laws would you like to cite, there, F. Lee?


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7969768 - 02/02/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969820 - 02/02/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

The oil in the Middle East is America's resource?




Why would you even ask that question? Are you telling me that it's not a resource that we should secure?


Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Damn, you caught on to my secret agenda. I really opposed U.S. militarism in Iraq because I know that if nothing was done, then Iraqi tanks would be in U.S. cities right now... and we'd be having this conversation in Arabic, etc. Damn... the neocons saved America & my plot to destroy it was foiled.




Huh? The point is that there have always been wars over resources. There is always a nation, empire, etc. that has a lot of power. Whether you like it or not America is that nation, for now. Unless of course it falls.

And America needs Turkey for bases and supply routes to make sure that our interests are secure.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 06:08 PM)


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969824 - 02/02/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
In 1986, I believe, the UN & the World Criminal Court declared a U.S.-backed paramilitary organization a terrorist group & called on it to immediately cease its support.




This was the Nicaragua vs. the US case heard by the International Court of Justice in 1986 when the Nicaraguan government sought to reprimand the US government for extensively intervening in their internal affairs and violating their sovereignty over the course of the whole Contra-Sandinista fiasco. The US was actually found guilty by the ICJ in this case and told to pay reparations but obviously this wasn't done as ICJ resolutions are non-binding and the US has had a poor track record of abiding by international law.

Entheogenic is right when he says that the US government supports international law only when it suits its interests (see the argument given for the invasion of Iraq). Free trade is also something that we are not truly adhering to as much as we should be. Our trade policy currently imposes non-tariff barriers in the form of subsidies that giant agro-businesses receive from the government, which has unfortunate effect of driving down their prices to a level where cotton (for example) farmers in the developing world can't compete with our artificially under-priced exports. This drives already starving farmers in third world countries out of business. One can hardly call this free trade...

This is still a great country but we've got a lot of work to do on our foreign policy.


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7970006 - 02/02/08 07:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970049 - 02/02/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:


Yes.




Are you living in America? If you are then you should realize that we need to secure resources before other countries do the same.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

So if attempting to forcibly deny the recreational use of cannabis by consenting individuals had also always had a presence in the history of human societies, is its past acceptable justification for its future?




There's a problem with your statement: The drug war is a new affair. Sorry.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

Only if by 'America' you mean warmongers who want violent conflict either for profits, bloodlust, or both. But if by 'America' you mean the nearly 300,000,000 people who are designated as its citizens, then no, tens of millions who want nothing to do with war & an industry of death have no need for the Turkish government.




Sorry but the real world which you seem to despise is a cold cold place. There is no place for pussies. Pussies get fucked. Do you want to do the fucking or do you want some else to fuck you? Pick.

The fact still remains we Turkey now just like we needed it during the Cold War. They are one of our primary allies and we share some of the same goals.


By the way, Americans are a war-like people. Do you even know the history of this country? Yea... we're very peaceful, LOL LOL LOL.


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 07:16 PM)


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
    #7970086 - 02/02/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There is no place for pussies. Pussies get fucked. Do you want to do the fucking or do you want some else to fuck you? Pick.




Way to rip off Team America: World Police :lol:

Anyway, just to clarify your position... Are you saying that you believe that the Iraq War is being fought solely for oil?


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970095 - 02/02/08 07:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It should be clear that position is non-sensical.

You can argue over why it was fought, but it quite clearly has not been for the oil...


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If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970105 - 02/02/08 07:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Let the man answer... I'm trying to see where he's coming from.


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7970147 - 02/02/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970169 - 02/02/08 07:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970194 - 02/02/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why is the price of oil 5X higher than before the invasion?

Did we just spectacularly mis-manage this part of the invasion as welll?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970226 - 02/02/08 07:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:


Yes to the first part, but since I'm not a proponent of perpetual war, I don't believe the second.




It is irrelevant what you believe. The fact is that humans fight for resources whether you like it or not.

You can go ahead and believe that everyone is a hippie. Go ahead and run from reality, I don't give a fuck. But the fact still remains.... humans have been doing this for a long time just like other animals.

By the way, I wish everyone was peaceful, understanding, shared everything but I tend to accept the real world. I am a realist and not an idealist which you seem to be.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

No, there isn't. It was a valid philosophical question, asking if past wrongs justify their continuance & are a valid excuse for committing them. If you have no interest in pondering something that does not have a simplistic answer, then I cannot help that.




Who said War was wrong? You? I bet your ancestors were killing people like hot cakes, lol.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

Unlike you, apparently, I do not have a perverse love affair with death, destruction & the domination of others.



The CIA, special forces, etc. have been doing the dirty work so that you can go to the mall every weekend. Do you honestly think we can all live together? Why don't you go read a history book?

I guess you want to give up and let other countries rape us? You like being raped? Well, damn.... never knew a person that wants to be weak, get raped, etc.

Guess what: There are people in Africa that would kill your entire family, slit your throat, take all your money, possessions, etc. Do you know why? So they can survive, gain wealth, etc. Life is a bitch ain't it? You gonna accept it?
Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

I have asked that you define "we" more accurately. If, though, you have no interest in trying to make sense & grasp something that doesn't have such a simple, generalized answer conducive to your apparent desire to control others, then, again, I can do nothing.




We is America. Whether you like it or not there are Americans killing others and securing resources in your interest so you can shop at the mall and not worry about having food in your stomach, having vaccines, etc.


Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Do you not realize that the ideology & ideals you profess are no different from what existed amongst the general public in Germany in the 1930s, or do you simply not care?




If you say that then you better say that the Mongol Empire, Rome, and every other Empire was ran by Nazis.

And if you believe that then you are making up definitions for "Nazi" to suit your point. Good Job.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Thank a deity that more & more Americans are every day repudiating a fanatical, bloodthirsty neoNazi mentality that was so rampant after Sept. 11, 2001.





Are you telling me that any1 that uses war to secure resources, interests, etc. is a Nazi?


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 08:11 PM)


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
    #7970379 - 02/02/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

downforpot - War is a brutal reality and should be used as a last resort after diplomacy has failed and only if it is necessary- the cost is too high. While I do agree with you that warfare and killing is in human nature I also think it is being phased out by non-violent methods such as retaliatory trade measures, embargoes, blacklisting, and other such methods that make much more sense than invading another country. The only true remnants of warfare are ethnic wars and/or rebellions that occur within states with occasional involvement by superpowers a la proxy warfare (see Cold War). The notion that one state should invade another state to get what it wants is archaic and it's quite frankly disappointing that the US would have to resort to that sort of barbarism to get what it wants (although what it wanted from invading Iraq is still very much uncertain and up for debate).

Quote:


Why is the price of oil 5X higher than before the invasion?




This is a very good point. If we had invaded Iraq for oil the prices should have plummeted as we would have controlled more of the supply. Although, it is an interesting point to note that very recently Iraq's oil production has increased beyond pre-war levelshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7144774.stm


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970399 - 02/02/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
War is a brutal reality and should be used as a last resort after diplomacy has failed and only if it is necessary- the cost is too high.




Yes I do agree with that. But the point I am making is that humans have been warring for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time just like every other animal on this rock.

Etho seems to think we are all hippies and we can all live in harmony. That is straight up wishful thinking.


Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
While I do agree with you that warfare and killing is in human nature I also think it is being phased out by non-violent methods such as retaliatory trade measures, embargoes, blacklisting, and other such methods that make much more sense than invading another country. The only true remnants of warfare are ethnic wars and/or rebellions that occur within states with occasional involvement by superpowers a la proxy warfare (see Cold War). The notion that one state should invade another state to get what it wants is archaic and it's quite frankly disappointing that the US would have to resort to that sort of barbarism to get what it wants (although what it wanted from invading Iraq is still very much uncertain and up for debate).







Why say it's barbarism? We're being human. We are not doing anything that some will not do to us. For some reason so many people think that if USA puts down all its guns and withdraws all its troops then there be PEACE ALL OVER THE WORLD. That is utter bullshit if any1 believes that.


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 08:16 PM)


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970400 - 02/02/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sure, because shit is finally getting right over there and we are giving them massive amounts of money to get them back on their feet.

I think its funny that all the people who want us to leave tomorrow are the same ones who think that the Iraqi government is a puppet regime. News Flash -- Us leaving today is going to kneecap that government at just the time they are starting to assert their autonomy.

Their oil money is literally the only thing they have. Thinking they will just hand it over to us is more or less calling the Iraqi Government idiots.

They aren't.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970479 - 02/02/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

For some reason so many people that if USA puts down all its guns and withdraws all its troops then there be PEACE ALL OVER THE WORLD. That is utter bullshit if any1 believes that.




I wasn't saying that at all, you're making a Straw Man argument. What I WAS saying is that in this particular instance, war was completely unnecessary and it has turned out to be a monumental lapse in judgment. If you had read what I wrote you would have seen that I made a point of saying that ethnic and intrastate warfare has been rampant in place of state-state warfare (this is attributable to the invention of the atomic bomb) so the US does not even come close to being the perpetrator of all violence in the world.

The bigger question to ask is what have we gained from this war? A war can be rationalised if the ends justify the means, according to your Machiavellian perspective. What would you say that justification would be?


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970497 - 02/02/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
I wasn't saying that at all, you're making a Straw Man argument. What I WAS saying is that in this particular instance, war was completely unnecessary and it has turned out to be a monumental lapse in judgment. If you had read what I wrote you would have seen that I made a point of saying that ethnic and intrastate warfare has been rampant in place of state-state warfare (this is attributable to the invention of the atomic bomb) so the US does not even come close to being the perpetrator of all violence in the world.




Yes this war was not necessary. We should have starved Iraq a bit more. Or started another proxy war and let others do the killing.


Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
The bigger question to ask is what have we gained from this war? A war can be rationalised if the ends justify the means, according to your Machiavellian perspective. What would you say that justification would be?




For the time being we haven't gained much. However, it could have been handled better but that is another story.


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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 08:37 PM)


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970527 - 02/02/08 08:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sure, because shit is finally getting right over there and we are giving them massive amounts of money to get them back on their feet.




What "shit" is getting right over there? The evidence does not support your claim.


Quote:

Us leaving today is going to kneecap that government at just the time they are starting to assert their autonomy.




Do you have any evidence to support the claim that the Iraqi government is beginning to assert their autonomy? Government officials have been saying this for years and it doesn't seem to hold any water considering the increasing violence.


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970553 - 02/02/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In general, we like people to post attributions for graphs that they post. For all I know, that could be a graph of deaths in Sudan at that time. Because it sure as hell bears no relation to the actual numbers of people killed in Iraq, which is what we were discussing.

To interject a dose of reality into this conversation, you can have a look at an actual graph of civilian deaths in Iraq. And I'll even be generous and give you the graphs for Iraqibodycount.com, which is decried by Republicans and other idiots for posting *ridiculously* high death counts. I think it's probably pretty accurate...



If that's small, you can find that graph and several others in context here.

Just a note of text from the same...

Quote:

With two exceptions (May and July), the 2007 civilian death toll in Baghdad has fallen steadily month on month. By December 2007 this had fallen to around 246, about one-seventh of the starting January total of 1,683. 2

In contrast, the monthly toll outside Baghdad increased substantially between January (1,112) and August (1,604), before a steep drop to around 700 per month and below for September through December.




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7970596 - 02/02/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970626 - 02/02/08 09:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Overthrowing democratically-elected governments in 'Third world' countries, & arming & training death squads to torture, rape & butcher hundreds of thousands of civilians (which, in Latin America, are disproportionately of my people) to protect & secure U.S. corporate investments & profits has nothing to do with acting in my best interests.




You forgot genocide of the Native Americans... that wasn't in your best interests either, was it?

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
You are a morbid, sick & frightening person.




How so? I am a realist whether you like it or not.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
If these things are in your interests, then so be it, but don't for a second, cracker, state that I share in your fantasies for an orgy of bloodlust, hacking & machining gunning the bodies of peasant farmers apart along with their wives & children, or that I am rabid in my enthusiasm for smelling flesh burn & looking at mingled bodies after U.S. fighter planes drop explosives & incendiaries, which puts money into the bank accounts of war profiteers.




When did I say I liked seeing people die? I just accept the fact that war is necessary for nations. You seem to think everyone can be a peaceful hippie.

Whether you like it or not... people were killed for this country so you live here. Millions were exterminated so that you could live here. ACCEPT IT.


Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

Change 'Africa' to 'Europe' & you painted pretty accurately the picture of the Western Hemisphere over the last five & a quarter centuries.




So you don't deny the fact that an African would commit such an act?


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970713 - 02/02/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My mistake for not properly labeling and I can see the confusion. What I had posted earlier was actually a statistic of US military deaths, which have shown a trend of steadily increasing from 2003-2007.

The graph you posted is misleading first of all because it doesn't show the years in question. You did pretty much what you scolded me for doing. But alas...

This graph from the Brookings Institute shows the trend of attacks against US troops from 2003-2007. The trend is pretty clear here and shows no sign of stability or slowing down of violence as you were arguing but rather an alarming increase.


This one shows an aggregate of all deaths in Iraq


If there has been any fall in civilian deaths this is probably due to the enormous amount of civilians that have fled to neighbouring countries. Quite bluntly, there are less people around to kill.

Any way you slice it the conflict has no pretty end in sight. The US occupation is the only glue holding that country so tenuously together because ironically enough the different sects are united in trying to repel the foreign occupation (see the alliance of convenience between the Chinese Nationalists and Communists during Japanese occupation in World War II). If we pull out, that glue will be gone and the country will undoubtedly split into a three-way civil war between the Kurds, Sunni and Shia and if they're lucky will carve out autonomous states for themselves after a few years of civil war. The US sticking around in Iraq has obviously not paid dividends either and probably will not do so in the near future. During the 19th and early 20th century the only way the Ottoman Empire could subdue Iraq was by carrying out massive public executions (i.e. creating mountains of human skulls in public squares). Doubt we'd do that.

Any other suggestions?


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Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/02/08 11:10 PM)


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7971076 - 02/02/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We just disagree.

Listen, if you want stability you have to keep the population safe. That the people are safe is the basic condition that must exist for any type of government to be effective and to grow. An effective and coherent state will lead to a reduction in violence.

Does this make sense? This is the way I think things happen.

I don't buy for one second that the reduction in civilian deaths is because they are all gone. The amount of people that have left is proportionally small, and many are beginning to return as evidenced in this Al-Jazeera article.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7971272 - 02/02/08 11:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I see what you're saying. It would be great, since we're already there and can't fix the mistake of invading in the first place, if we could help Iraq form a stable society and get them on their feet and then get the hell out of there. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later.

If you look at the civilian deaths they have definitely gone down in the past few months, like you say, while the attacks on our troops have gone up (see graph from last post).



That's a pretty interesting statistic... I wonder what kind of conclusion you can draw from that. My guess would be less sectarian violence and more concerted efforts by Iraqis to attack coalition troops.


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7971877 - 02/03/08 06:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is all very fascinating, folks, but unless the next post has something to do with recognizing the Armenian genocide, there's no point keeping this thread open. Do any of you have any thoughts on the Armenian genocide?



Phred


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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Phred]
    #7972268 - 02/03/08 10:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't have any Armenian genocide graphs.

:wtf:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets
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Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972271 - 02/03/08 10:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Right said Phred... haha yeah me neither.

Oh well, the thread was fun while it lasted.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7972407 - 02/03/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

Reason for deletion: ---


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--- nothing right now ---


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7972453 - 02/03/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I love how you put the entire burden of military exploitation on Western European countries.

Revise history much?

This thread his heading for lockage...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7972467 - 02/03/08 11:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace

Reason for deletion: ---


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7972651 - 02/03/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If you want to attack or attempt to discredit something I actually said, please do so, but don't put words in my mouth & then attempt to discredit what I didn't say.




The classic straw man argument... seen a few people do that in this thread. Make sure that you're actually responding to something that the other person said otherwise you're arguing with an imaginary person.

Quote:

Do they not exist alongside each in peace today, without even so much as border skirmishes between them despite that they were annihilating each in huge numbers not long ago, proving that war is both unnecessary & in the best interests of the majority?




I would attribute this to the fact that most major military powers either have nuclear weapons or are allied to those with nuclear weapons. Mutually assured destruction is a very powerful deterrent in keeping one state from waging war against another. That may be why there have been no wars declared since 1945.

(I secretly hope this thread stays open)


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7972780 - 02/03/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Millions (of primarily indigenous people, initially) were exterminated so that I could live where my ancestors have lived for thousands of years? That's an interesting concept.




How is that a concept? That's called history....You would not have this country if that had not taken place. MOST people would not have the US if those horrible events did not take place.


Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
If one's ideology is influenced by Makaveli & Mein Kampf, that may be so. However, if one's worldview is shaped by Gandhi, Einstein & Dr. King, this isn't the case. Even between the extremes of advocating perpetual war & militarism, in the case of the former, & advocating world peace by solving conflicts non-militarily, in the case of the latter, your assertion is not true.

Even the U.S. "founding fathers" were stated opponents of war. Whether or not they adhered to that ideal does not take away from the fact that they, at least ideologically & in theory, believed a form of government could be established that was no longer characterized by the endless wars amongst nations that was a seemingly permanent fixture in the Europe that they left.

However, even if war had been a near constant throughout the world for hundreds or thousands of years, this is no logical reason to justify it continuance. How many tens of millions have been slaughtered & sent to early deaths due primarily the ambitions of power-hungry tyrants in England, Germany, France, Spain, Austria, Russia, Scandinavia & other European nation-states & people that have been at war countless times with shifting alliances over the past 500 years? Do they not exist alongside each in peace today, without even so much as border skirmishes between them despite that they were annihilating each in huge numbers not long ago, proving that war is both unnecessary & in the best interests of the majority?




Fact still remains: War is a part of human nature whether you like it or not. Just ask Einstein.

Humans are violent mother fuckers whether you like it or not.

And yes I would like everyone to be a hippie but that is not the case. I accept reality, you hate it.

Why would you even talk about the founding fathers? We have been at war since THE FOUNDING OF THIS COUNTRY.

Also, are you telling me Ghengis Khan and Roman leaders were influenced by Mein Kampf?

I suggest you go to the pacifism thread.... see what people think of your pacifism.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/03/08 12:48 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
    #7972800 - 02/03/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
I accept reality, you hate it.




FTW. Just perfect.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #7973476 - 02/03/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
What part of "Armenian genocide" did I fail to make clear?



Phred


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