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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7970713 - 02/02/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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My mistake for not properly labeling and I can see the confusion. What I had posted earlier was actually a statistic of US military deaths, which have shown a trend of steadily increasing from 2003-2007.
The graph you posted is misleading first of all because it doesn't show the years in question. You did pretty much what you scolded me for doing. But alas...
This graph from the Brookings Institute shows the trend of attacks against US troops from 2003-2007. The trend is pretty clear here and shows no sign of stability or slowing down of violence as you were arguing but rather an alarming increase.

This one shows an aggregate of all deaths in Iraq

If there has been any fall in civilian deaths this is probably due to the enormous amount of civilians that have fled to neighbouring countries. Quite bluntly, there are less people around to kill.
Any way you slice it the conflict has no pretty end in sight. The US occupation is the only glue holding that country so tenuously together because ironically enough the different sects are united in trying to repel the foreign occupation (see the alliance of convenience between the Chinese Nationalists and Communists during Japanese occupation in World War II). If we pull out, that glue will be gone and the country will undoubtedly split into a three-way civil war between the Kurds, Sunni and Shia and if they're lucky will carve out autonomous states for themselves after a few years of civil war. The US sticking around in Iraq has obviously not paid dividends either and probably will not do so in the near future. During the 19th and early 20th century the only way the Ottoman Empire could subdue Iraq was by carrying out massive public executions (i.e. creating mountains of human skulls in public squares). Doubt we'd do that.
Any other suggestions?
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Edited by Virus_with_Shoes (02/02/08 11:10 PM)
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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We just disagree.
Listen, if you want stability you have to keep the population safe. That the people are safe is the basic condition that must exist for any type of government to be effective and to grow. An effective and coherent state will lead to a reduction in violence.
Does this make sense? This is the way I think things happen.
I don't buy for one second that the reduction in civilian deaths is because they are all gone. The amount of people that have left is proportionally small, and many are beginning to return as evidenced in this Al-Jazeera article.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7971272 - 02/02/08 11:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I see what you're saying. It would be great, since we're already there and can't fix the mistake of invading in the first place, if we could help Iraq form a stable society and get them on their feet and then get the hell out of there. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later.
If you look at the civilian deaths they have definitely gone down in the past few months, like you say, while the attacks on our troops have gone up (see graph from last post).

That's a pretty interesting statistic... I wonder what kind of conclusion you can draw from that. My guess would be less sectarian violence and more concerted efforts by Iraqis to attack coalition troops.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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This is all very fascinating, folks, but unless the next post has something to do with recognizing the Armenian genocide, there's no point keeping this thread open. Do any of you have any thoughts on the Armenian genocide?
Phred
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Phred]
#7972268 - 02/03/08 10:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't have any Armenian genocide graphs.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7972271 - 02/03/08 10:17 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Right said Phred... haha yeah me neither.
Oh well, the thread was fun while it lasted.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
#7972407 - 02/03/08 10:57 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
Reason for deletion: ---
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 5 months, 23 days
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I love how you put the entire burden of military exploitation on Western European countries.
Revise history much?
This thread his heading for lockage...
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7972467 - 02/03/08 11:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
Reason for deletion: ---
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Quote:
If you want to attack or attempt to discredit something I actually said, please do so, but don't put words in my mouth & then attempt to discredit what I didn't say.
The classic straw man argument... seen a few people do that in this thread. Make sure that you're actually responding to something that the other person said otherwise you're arguing with an imaginary person.
Quote:
Do they not exist alongside each in peace today, without even so much as border skirmishes between them despite that they were annihilating each in huge numbers not long ago, proving that war is both unnecessary & in the best interests of the majority?
I would attribute this to the fact that most major military powers either have nuclear weapons or are allied to those with nuclear weapons. Mutually assured destruction is a very powerful deterrent in keeping one state from waging war against another. That may be why there have been no wars declared since 1945.
(I secretly hope this thread stays open)
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: Millions (of primarily indigenous people, initially) were exterminated so that I could live where my ancestors have lived for thousands of years? That's an interesting concept.
How is that a concept? That's called history....You would not have this country if that had not taken place. MOST people would not have the US if those horrible events did not take place.
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said: If one's ideology is influenced by Makaveli & Mein Kampf, that may be so. However, if one's worldview is shaped by Gandhi, Einstein & Dr. King, this isn't the case. Even between the extremes of advocating perpetual war & militarism, in the case of the former, & advocating world peace by solving conflicts non-militarily, in the case of the latter, your assertion is not true.
Even the U.S. "founding fathers" were stated opponents of war. Whether or not they adhered to that ideal does not take away from the fact that they, at least ideologically & in theory, believed a form of government could be established that was no longer characterized by the endless wars amongst nations that was a seemingly permanent fixture in the Europe that they left.
However, even if war had been a near constant throughout the world for hundreds or thousands of years, this is no logical reason to justify it continuance. How many tens of millions have been slaughtered & sent to early deaths due primarily the ambitions of power-hungry tyrants in England, Germany, France, Spain, Austria, Russia, Scandinavia & other European nation-states & people that have been at war countless times with shifting alliances over the past 500 years? Do they not exist alongside each in peace today, without even so much as border skirmishes between them despite that they were annihilating each in huge numbers not long ago, proving that war is both unnecessary & in the best interests of the majority?
Fact still remains: War is a part of human nature whether you like it or not. Just ask Einstein.
Humans are violent mother fuckers whether you like it or not.
And yes I would like everyone to be a hippie but that is not the case. I accept reality, you hate it.
Why would you even talk about the founding fathers? We have been at war since THE FOUNDING OF THIS COUNTRY.
Also, are you telling me Ghengis Khan and Roman leaders were influenced by Mein Kampf?
I suggest you go to the pacifism thread.... see what people think of your pacifism.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (02/03/08 12:48 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
#7972800 - 02/03/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
downforpot said: I accept reality, you hate it.
FTW. Just perfect.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
#7973476 - 02/03/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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This thread has been closed.
Reason: What part of "Armenian genocide" did I fail to make clear?
Phred
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