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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969820 - 02/02/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

The oil in the Middle East is America's resource?




Why would you even ask that question? Are you telling me that it's not a resource that we should secure?


Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Damn, you caught on to my secret agenda. I really opposed U.S. militarism in Iraq because I know that if nothing was done, then Iraqi tanks would be in U.S. cities right now... and we'd be having this conversation in Arabic, etc. Damn... the neocons saved America & my plot to destroy it was foiled.




Huh? The point is that there have always been wars over resources. There is always a nation, empire, etc. that has a lot of power. Whether you like it or not America is that nation, for now. Unless of course it falls.

And America needs Turkey for bases and supply routes to make sure that our interests are secure.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 06:08 PM)


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7969824 - 02/02/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
In 1986, I believe, the UN & the World Criminal Court declared a U.S.-backed paramilitary organization a terrorist group & called on it to immediately cease its support.




This was the Nicaragua vs. the US case heard by the International Court of Justice in 1986 when the Nicaraguan government sought to reprimand the US government for extensively intervening in their internal affairs and violating their sovereignty over the course of the whole Contra-Sandinista fiasco. The US was actually found guilty by the ICJ in this case and told to pay reparations but obviously this wasn't done as ICJ resolutions are non-binding and the US has had a poor track record of abiding by international law.

Entheogenic is right when he says that the US government supports international law only when it suits its interests (see the argument given for the invasion of Iraq). Free trade is also something that we are not truly adhering to as much as we should be. Our trade policy currently imposes non-tariff barriers in the form of subsidies that giant agro-businesses receive from the government, which has unfortunate effect of driving down their prices to a level where cotton (for example) farmers in the developing world can't compete with our artificially under-priced exports. This drives already starving farmers in third world countries out of business. One can hardly call this free trade...

This is still a great country but we've got a lot of work to do on our foreign policy.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7970006 - 02/02/08 07:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970049 - 02/02/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:


Yes.




Are you living in America? If you are then you should realize that we need to secure resources before other countries do the same.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

So if attempting to forcibly deny the recreational use of cannabis by consenting individuals had also always had a presence in the history of human societies, is its past acceptable justification for its future?




There's a problem with your statement: The drug war is a new affair. Sorry.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

Only if by 'America' you mean warmongers who want violent conflict either for profits, bloodlust, or both. But if by 'America' you mean the nearly 300,000,000 people who are designated as its citizens, then no, tens of millions who want nothing to do with war & an industry of death have no need for the Turkish government.




Sorry but the real world which you seem to despise is a cold cold place. There is no place for pussies. Pussies get fucked. Do you want to do the fucking or do you want some else to fuck you? Pick.

The fact still remains we Turkey now just like we needed it during the Cold War. They are one of our primary allies and we share some of the same goals.


By the way, Americans are a war-like people. Do you even know the history of this country? Yea... we're very peaceful, LOL LOL LOL.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 07:16 PM)


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
    #7970086 - 02/02/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There is no place for pussies. Pussies get fucked. Do you want to do the fucking or do you want some else to fuck you? Pick.




Way to rip off Team America: World Police :lol:

Anyway, just to clarify your position... Are you saying that you believe that the Iraq War is being fought solely for oil?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970095 - 02/02/08 07:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It should be clear that position is non-sensical.

You can argue over why it was fought, but it quite clearly has not been for the oil...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970105 - 02/02/08 07:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Let the man answer... I'm trying to see where he's coming from.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7970147 - 02/02/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970169 - 02/02/08 07:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970194 - 02/02/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why is the price of oil 5X higher than before the invasion?

Did we just spectacularly mis-manage this part of the invasion as welll?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970226 - 02/02/08 07:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:


Yes to the first part, but since I'm not a proponent of perpetual war, I don't believe the second.




It is irrelevant what you believe. The fact is that humans fight for resources whether you like it or not.

You can go ahead and believe that everyone is a hippie. Go ahead and run from reality, I don't give a fuck. But the fact still remains.... humans have been doing this for a long time just like other animals.

By the way, I wish everyone was peaceful, understanding, shared everything but I tend to accept the real world. I am a realist and not an idealist which you seem to be.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

No, there isn't. It was a valid philosophical question, asking if past wrongs justify their continuance & are a valid excuse for committing them. If you have no interest in pondering something that does not have a simplistic answer, then I cannot help that.




Who said War was wrong? You? I bet your ancestors were killing people like hot cakes, lol.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

Unlike you, apparently, I do not have a perverse love affair with death, destruction & the domination of others.



The CIA, special forces, etc. have been doing the dirty work so that you can go to the mall every weekend. Do you honestly think we can all live together? Why don't you go read a history book?

I guess you want to give up and let other countries rape us? You like being raped? Well, damn.... never knew a person that wants to be weak, get raped, etc.

Guess what: There are people in Africa that would kill your entire family, slit your throat, take all your money, possessions, etc. Do you know why? So they can survive, gain wealth, etc. Life is a bitch ain't it? You gonna accept it?
Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

I have asked that you define "we" more accurately. If, though, you have no interest in trying to make sense & grasp something that doesn't have such a simple, generalized answer conducive to your apparent desire to control others, then, again, I can do nothing.




We is America. Whether you like it or not there are Americans killing others and securing resources in your interest so you can shop at the mall and not worry about having food in your stomach, having vaccines, etc.


Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Do you not realize that the ideology & ideals you profess are no different from what existed amongst the general public in Germany in the 1930s, or do you simply not care?




If you say that then you better say that the Mongol Empire, Rome, and every other Empire was ran by Nazis.

And if you believe that then you are making up definitions for "Nazi" to suit your point. Good Job.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Thank a deity that more & more Americans are every day repudiating a fanatical, bloodthirsty neoNazi mentality that was so rampant after Sept. 11, 2001.





Are you telling me that any1 that uses war to secure resources, interests, etc. is a Nazi?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 08:11 PM)


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
    #7970379 - 02/02/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

downforpot - War is a brutal reality and should be used as a last resort after diplomacy has failed and only if it is necessary- the cost is too high. While I do agree with you that warfare and killing is in human nature I also think it is being phased out by non-violent methods such as retaliatory trade measures, embargoes, blacklisting, and other such methods that make much more sense than invading another country. The only true remnants of warfare are ethnic wars and/or rebellions that occur within states with occasional involvement by superpowers a la proxy warfare (see Cold War). The notion that one state should invade another state to get what it wants is archaic and it's quite frankly disappointing that the US would have to resort to that sort of barbarism to get what it wants (although what it wanted from invading Iraq is still very much uncertain and up for debate).

Quote:


Why is the price of oil 5X higher than before the invasion?




This is a very good point. If we had invaded Iraq for oil the prices should have plummeted as we would have controlled more of the supply. Although, it is an interesting point to note that very recently Iraq's oil production has increased beyond pre-war levelshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7144774.stm


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970399 - 02/02/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
War is a brutal reality and should be used as a last resort after diplomacy has failed and only if it is necessary- the cost is too high.




Yes I do agree with that. But the point I am making is that humans have been warring for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time just like every other animal on this rock.

Etho seems to think we are all hippies and we can all live in harmony. That is straight up wishful thinking.


Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
While I do agree with you that warfare and killing is in human nature I also think it is being phased out by non-violent methods such as retaliatory trade measures, embargoes, blacklisting, and other such methods that make much more sense than invading another country. The only true remnants of warfare are ethnic wars and/or rebellions that occur within states with occasional involvement by superpowers a la proxy warfare (see Cold War). The notion that one state should invade another state to get what it wants is archaic and it's quite frankly disappointing that the US would have to resort to that sort of barbarism to get what it wants (although what it wanted from invading Iraq is still very much uncertain and up for debate).







Why say it's barbarism? We're being human. We are not doing anything that some will not do to us. For some reason so many people think that if USA puts down all its guns and withdraws all its troops then there be PEACE ALL OVER THE WORLD. That is utter bullshit if any1 believes that.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 08:16 PM)


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970400 - 02/02/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Sure, because shit is finally getting right over there and we are giving them massive amounts of money to get them back on their feet.

I think its funny that all the people who want us to leave tomorrow are the same ones who think that the Iraqi government is a puppet regime. News Flash -- Us leaving today is going to kneecap that government at just the time they are starting to assert their autonomy.

Their oil money is literally the only thing they have. Thinking they will just hand it over to us is more or less calling the Iraqi Government idiots.

They aren't.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #7970479 - 02/02/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

For some reason so many people that if USA puts down all its guns and withdraws all its troops then there be PEACE ALL OVER THE WORLD. That is utter bullshit if any1 believes that.




I wasn't saying that at all, you're making a Straw Man argument. What I WAS saying is that in this particular instance, war was completely unnecessary and it has turned out to be a monumental lapse in judgment. If you had read what I wrote you would have seen that I made a point of saying that ethnic and intrastate warfare has been rampant in place of state-state warfare (this is attributable to the invention of the atomic bomb) so the US does not even come close to being the perpetrator of all violence in the world.

The bigger question to ask is what have we gained from this war? A war can be rationalised if the ends justify the means, according to your Machiavellian perspective. What would you say that justification would be?


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970497 - 02/02/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
I wasn't saying that at all, you're making a Straw Man argument. What I WAS saying is that in this particular instance, war was completely unnecessary and it has turned out to be a monumental lapse in judgment. If you had read what I wrote you would have seen that I made a point of saying that ethnic and intrastate warfare has been rampant in place of state-state warfare (this is attributable to the invention of the atomic bomb) so the US does not even come close to being the perpetrator of all violence in the world.




Yes this war was not necessary. We should have starved Iraq a bit more. Or started another proxy war and let others do the killing.


Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
The bigger question to ask is what have we gained from this war? A war can be rationalised if the ends justify the means, according to your Machiavellian perspective. What would you say that justification would be?




For the time being we haven't gained much. However, it could have been handled better but that is another story.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 08:37 PM)


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InvisibleVirus_with_Shoes
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970527 - 02/02/08 08:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sure, because shit is finally getting right over there and we are giving them massive amounts of money to get them back on their feet.




What "shit" is getting right over there? The evidence does not support your claim.


Quote:

Us leaving today is going to kneecap that government at just the time they are starting to assert their autonomy.




Do you have any evidence to support the claim that the Iraqi government is beginning to assert their autonomy? Government officials have been saying this for years and it doesn't seem to hold any water considering the increasing violence.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #7970553 - 02/02/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In general, we like people to post attributions for graphs that they post. For all I know, that could be a graph of deaths in Sudan at that time. Because it sure as hell bears no relation to the actual numbers of people killed in Iraq, which is what we were discussing.

To interject a dose of reality into this conversation, you can have a look at an actual graph of civilian deaths in Iraq. And I'll even be generous and give you the graphs for Iraqibodycount.com, which is decried by Republicans and other idiots for posting *ridiculously* high death counts. I think it's probably pretty accurate...



If that's small, you can find that graph and several others in context here.

Just a note of text from the same...

Quote:

With two exceptions (May and July), the 2007 civilian death toll in Baghdad has fallen steadily month on month. By December 2007 this had fallen to around 246, about one-seventh of the starting January total of 1,683. 2

In contrast, the monthly toll outside Baghdad increased substantially between January (1,112) and August (1,604), before a steep drop to around 700 per month and below for September through December.




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
    #7970596 - 02/02/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7970626 - 02/02/08 09:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Overthrowing democratically-elected governments in 'Third world' countries, & arming & training death squads to torture, rape & butcher hundreds of thousands of civilians (which, in Latin America, are disproportionately of my people) to protect & secure U.S. corporate investments & profits has nothing to do with acting in my best interests.




You forgot genocide of the Native Americans... that wasn't in your best interests either, was it?

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
You are a morbid, sick & frightening person.




How so? I am a realist whether you like it or not.

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
If these things are in your interests, then so be it, but don't for a second, cracker, state that I share in your fantasies for an orgy of bloodlust, hacking & machining gunning the bodies of peasant farmers apart along with their wives & children, or that I am rabid in my enthusiasm for smelling flesh burn & looking at mingled bodies after U.S. fighter planes drop explosives & incendiaries, which puts money into the bank accounts of war profiteers.




When did I say I liked seeing people die? I just accept the fact that war is necessary for nations. You seem to think everyone can be a peaceful hippie.

Whether you like it or not... people were killed for this country so you live here. Millions were exterminated so that you could live here. ACCEPT IT.


Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:

Change 'Africa' to 'Europe' & you painted pretty accurately the picture of the Western Hemisphere over the last five & a quarter centuries.




So you don't deny the fact that an African would commit such an act?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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