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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
#7519528 - 10/15/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations?
Such a shallow view. There is much more to the picture than Turkey as a military stepping stone.
> Brilliant isn't the word for that; I believe the word is impossible.
It wasn't impossible when they made the campaign promises. How many voted to continue funding the war after they got elected?
I find it absurd to screw over relations with one of the few middle eastern countries that still have good will towards the US just to put a thorn in Bush. I find it frightening that the history books are being written by congressional resolution, rather than academic research, just to put a thorn in Bush.
Turkey is interesting. As much as they hate the United States.. they seem very similar to us in that...
We're both nations where a marjotiy of the people don't want religious nuts to be in office.. yet we keep voting for them. At least that's what I keep reading.
I always get confused when I read articles ansuch as one I read in in the Economist earlier this year that say the overwhelming majority of Turks want a secular gov't.. then I hear that the person they vote in is someone who wantefavors an Islamist state.
Either the Economist is full of shit... or the Turks as as ass backwards as we are.
Edited by BrAiN (10/15/07 01:49 PM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
#7519536 - 10/15/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
afoaf said: like the military doesn't already have enough to worry about, now they have to reorganize their entire logistical chain because congress wants to pass a bill recognizing a historically-questionable event?
No, they would have to reorganize their entire logistical chain because Turkey is not interested in relations with us if we acknowedge an occurence as genocide. Perhaps if waging war becomes too difficult and costly, prolonging our military presence in Iraq and other territories will no longer be such a concern to those who are interested in continuing the war. I don't think the difficulties the military has in waging war is, in any way, a pressing concern for the American people.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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airbender
Stranger

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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
#7967606 - 02/02/08 04:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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you are talking about the so called "armenian genocide" which i can lead you to some of the turkish sources about the subject , since i know armenian lobbies in u.s.a are working hard crying whining . Lemme explain the situation to you briefly , while in world war I turkey was under attack from all sides , from the east they were fighting with russians , at the eastern part of turkey there used to be 1.5 million armenians . When russians attacked and they knew that turkey probably wouldnt stand this war , they agreed with russians and helped them while they are within our lands and they started turning against turkish people . When the situation changed and russians were beaten at east , turkey would like to concentrate its efforts on the enemies at west (greece and england). The russians are gone but 1.5 million armenians who helped them to kill turkish soldiers and who burnt and destroyed turkish villages were still there , so the government which was ottoman empire at those times not Turkey as known today took a decision to send these "COMBATANTS" out of land , since they had lots of troubles inside the country . What happened then is 1.5 million people started to move out of the land . Eastern part of turkey is known for its cold winters where temperatures can drop as low as -30 celcius degrees . On their way out of the country no turkish villages helped them by means of food or other things since they betrayed them , and the winter was so harsh at those times 70.000 people died because of these conditions out of 1.5 million . What is happening these days is this over 75 years armenia multiplied their loss by nearly 20 times , and they didnt bring this issue up when it happened because they knew that it was easier to prove what they have done . With every passing year they tried to bring this issue to international platforms .beginnin from 1930's and after that within every 5 or 10 year they increased the number of their losses . Their lost number were recorded every platform they brought this issue , and you can see through the years this number always kept increasing in 1930's they were claiming 120.000 people were killed those days , they are telling now that the number of people they have lost is 1.5 million which is non sense since the total population being moved away was that much . They are claiming this since in governmental relations the price of blood is only land . They are claiming this and bringing up at international platforms because they want land . this is as simple as it is . If in the first world war turkey was defeated eastern part of turkey would become a part of armenia as a result of their agreements with russians . Now that they have lost it they are trying to show themselves as the victims . Interesting isnt it , they are trying to win somethings either way they tried to fight they lost now that they are whining and saying genocide , and i tell you it was not it was self defence . No country would breed traitors while they have a lot of problems within their lands . I justed wanted to give you the idea that Turkey is supporting , throughout this thread i have read many people saying i have no doubt that they did it" and something . Turkey is open to resolve anything scientifically by means of history but armenians are not accepting that . and since armenian lobby is strong in usa you people only hear about one side of the situation To be perspective when judging an issue you should know both sides of the issue and i insist on it . If anyone would like to read a detailed version of this situation here is the link of it in english from turkey's point of view .
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html
please before posting anything try to read what i typed and what is written in the link .
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: airbender]
#7967962 - 02/02/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Turkey is open to resolve anything scientifically by means of history
If that is the case, then what about this?
Quote:
Public prosecutors have utilized Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code prohibiting "insulting Turkishness" to silence some Turkish intellectuals who spoke of atrocities endured by Armenians in the last days of the Ottoman Empire. Turkish state officials say that no one is currently incarcerated for expressing their ideas, and that the law may soon be amended. The modern Turkish government continues to protest the formal recognition of the genocide by other countries.
Also, what about all the German testimony saying that they witnessed acts of genocide? There were American Diplomats, German military officers, Russian military officers in Anatolia, and Turkish officials themselves. I'll leave you with this:
"I have issued the command — and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
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Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers



Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Redstorm]
#7968133 - 02/02/08 10:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hitler, no?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Madtowntripper]
#7968145 - 02/02/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes.
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Redstorm]
#7968314 - 02/02/08 11:42 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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It was politically inconvenient for the US to acknowledge the Armenian genocide because it antagonises Turkey, which according to the thinking of our policy makers, would further destabilise our geopolitical position in the Middle East. Turkey has been trying for years to subdue its rebellious Kurds who have been resisting the Turkish government and pushing for their own state since just after World War I when the Allies defaulted on their promise to grant them an independent state.
The Kurdish population spills over into Northern Iraq, which is where the US interest comes into play. As of now the US and Turkey both have shared interest in suppressing the Kurdish people and are very strong allies in this sense. The US has repeatedly allowed the Turkish military and air force to perform raids in the north of Iraq to chase down and weaken the PKK (Kurds).
The rationale was that if we were to acknowledge the Armenian genocide, which is a very sore issue for the Turks, it would be shooting ourselves in the foot and perhaps angering the Turkish government enough to drive a wedge between us, thus weakening our foothold in the Middle East. You can bet we want to keep as many allies as possible in that region to consolidate our hold over oil resources and strategically advantageous military positions.
Another interesting side effect from the domestic political standpoint was the White House's utter inability to stop Congress from passing the resolution. The State Department and diplomats went into massive damage control after this to essentially apologise to Turkey for passing the resolution.
We'll see how this pans out.
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Maverick]
#7969134 - 02/02/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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DRTMaverick said: What the hell does turkey provide for us anyway?
One of the few Muslim countries that are slightly secular, have a large number of people that understand and accept evolution, not religious fanatics. My friend went there on vacation too, said it was fucking awesome.
Their secularity is also the reason Israel is allied with them. They don't think that only Muslims should control that region and that is what most Muslim countries want.
There are some Turks that want the country to admit that a genocide occurred. However, we should not pass any legislations for the time being because we need them.
Not to mention they provide us with bases, supply routes, etc.
They are our true Muslim ally. FUCK SAUDI ARABIA. Those fuckers are psychotic cocksucking faggots who need regime change.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 03:10 PM)
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BrAiN
Art Fag


Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
#7969326 - 02/02/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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We've got OTHER allies around there... uhh.... Jordan... and uhhh.. umm... hmmm...
hmmmmm
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: BrAiN]
#7969348 - 02/02/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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So you're saying Jordan is just as secular as Turkey? Does it's military state that it will make sure that religious fanatics know their place like the dogs they are?
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (02/02/08 04:39 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
#7969447 - 02/02/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
Reason for deletion: ---
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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We support free trade and the rule of law. You support victimhood and oppression. Nothing makes you happier than complaining. You WANT to be oppressed. Too bad you can't get it in the USA without paying.
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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The US military per se doesn't "need" them [Turkish alliance] but the arrangement that the US and Turkish government is mutually beneficial. For one, they both have a common interest in subduing the Kurds and Turkey also purchases a whole lot of arms from Uncle Sam. It would make a whole mess of things from the US government perspective if Turkey were to detach itself from the orbit of US influence.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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We like this too. http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0221636420080202
Quote:
Secular Turks rally against Muslim headscarf reform
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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
...being because we need them.
Who needs them? You & the neocons who want political & military control over the Middle East & it's oil? When you say "we" need them, just be clear that you are speaking for those in the U.S. who support war & imperialism, not those who oppose it.
Are you saying America shouldn't secure its resources? Shall we just fall over and die?
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
#7969549 - 02/02/08 05:03 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
Reason for deletion: ---
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Virus_with_Shoes
Pastor of Muppets



Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 3,707
Loc: Zuid-Holland, Nederland
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: downforpot]
#7969559 - 02/02/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
downforpot said:
Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
...being because we need them.
Who needs them? You & the neocons who want political & military control over the Middle East & it's oil? When you say "we" need them, just be clear that you are speaking for those in the U.S. who support war & imperialism, not those who oppose it.
Are you saying America shouldn't secure its resources? Shall we just fall over and die?
To play devil's advocate... Would this really be falling over and dying if we didn't pay $2/gallon at the pump? Is it really worth throwing American lives into the meat grinder for cheaper gas? In Europe they pay close to $7/gallon and have thriving robust, economies... hardly falling over and dying.
Just trying to stir the proverbial pot...
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: downforpot]
#7969574 - 02/02/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
Reason for deletion: ---
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:
We support free trade and the rule of law.
No, you support "free trade" & the "rule of law" when it's convenient to you, but disregard it when it's not; a classical hypocrite.
And what imaginary laws would you like to cite, there, F. Lee?
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar



Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
#7969768 - 02/02/08 05:54 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EntheogenicPeace
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