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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7510709 - 10/11/07 08:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
there's probably a few districts with strong Armenian ties that have
been pressuring their local reps (Burbank, CA).

the Armenian swing vote is crucial this election season!




Who HASN'T COMMITED genocide? I mean c'mon. I just wiped 1,000 sperm right off of existence this morning.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Maverick]
    #7510980 - 10/11/07 09:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DRTMaverick said:
What the hell does turkey provide for us anyway?



turkish airlines is one of the best. unlimited free booze even in economy class :thumbup:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Arp]
    #7511616 - 10/13/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

that's a lot of airlines if you take an international flight actually


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: TheCow]
    #7512456 - 10/13/07 03:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Reading all of the comments, especially from the Bush administration, regarding how this resolution threatens our ability to wage war in Iraq, it seems clear that this is the means of the Democrats to work agansit the war, failing their inability to work agansit it in straight-forward ways.

Brilliant, and it supports history, as well. :thumbup:


--------------------
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7512474 - 10/13/07 03:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

I posted about the Armenian genocide here a few years ago and a couple Turkish Shroomerites got on my ass about it.




Can you link that? I'm just curious of their reason(s) for being so upset by history.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4889522#4889522


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #7515154 - 10/14/07 09:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

For your info:


http://www.downsizedc.org/read_the_laws.shtml

(I do support them in monetary units)


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7516184 - 10/14/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> Brilliant, and it supports history, as well. :thumbup:

Brilliant?  You don't cut off your foot because you stubbed your toe.  Brilliant would have been cutting the funding forcing and end to the conflict without pissing off one of the few friendly middle eastern countries.  Too bad they brilliantly voted to continue funding the war.  Why is it brilliant for politicians to be writing history?


--------------------
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7518386 - 10/15/07 04:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fresh quotes about this issue... lets see how brilliant Pelosi can be:

Quote:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Sunday that she intends to move ahead with a vote on a resolution that labels the deaths of more than a million Armenians during World War I as genocide.




Great... why, exactly?

Quote:

"This resolution is one that is consistent with what our government has always said about ... what happened at that time," Pelosi said on ABC's "This Week."




So our government is consistent in passing resolutions to define what happened in history rather than letting history speak for itself? Glad to know that she is in the "lets rewrite history through legislation" camp rather than "let history speak for itself camp".

(Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but why do we need a resolution stating something that should be left to academics to debate?)

So why is it important now and not for the last 90 years?

Quote:

Because many of the survivors are very old.




Great reason. Old age.

So why didn't she try to pass a resolution in the past?

Quote:

When I came to Congress 20 years ago, it wasn't the right time because of the Soviet Union. Then that fell, and then it wasn't the right time because of the Gulf War One. And then it wasn't the right time because of overflights of Iraq. And now it's not the right time because of Gulf War Two.




Perhaps it isn't the right time because it isn't something that congress should be doing at all.

So what is the real reason?

Quote:

Seventy percent of U.S. air cargo bound for Iraq passes over or through Turkey.




Brilliant. Too much of a douche to end the war like she promised those that voted for her, so instead, she is going to piss off one of the few friendly countries we have in the region to make it more difficult to fight. Bring the troops home, but don't fuck them over because you can't keep a campaign promise.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7518440 - 10/15/07 05:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not sure where I strand on this.

Even if it was a genocide (which I don't doubt), why are they waiting until NOW to pass the resolution? I think the democrats are just trying more subversive ways of sabotaging the war. Why don't the dems just suck it up, live up to their promises and cut the fucking funding on the war instead of trying to sabotage it in a cowardly way (Turkey's already threatened to invade northern Iraq).


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: BrAiN]
    #7518457 - 10/15/07 06:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> why are they waiting until NOW to pass the resolution?

According to Pelosi, there are two reasons.  People effected by the events are getting old (actually, only a handful of them are still alive, and they would have been babies at the time) and in the past, the time just wasn't right, but now it is.

>  I think the democrats are just trying more subversive ways of sabotaging the war.

Yep, because they were incapable of ending the war the way they promised in the last election.  Cowards.  They won't stand up to Bush, so instead, they sacrifice the soldiers stuck over their like pawns on a chessboard by making the region more dangerous and taking away resupply lines.  Brilliant! :rolleyes:

> Turkey's already threatened to invade northern Iraq

And rightly so, as they are getting attacked by northern Iraq.


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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7518476 - 10/15/07 06:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

More proof of how useless the Democrats are (Not that repuvblicans are any better).


Last November I was actually really trilled when the Democrats finally took back Congress.


Now I'm back to falling sleep when I watch the news.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7519040 - 10/15/07 11:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Brilliant?  You don't cut off your foot because you stubbed your toe.




So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations? :strokebeard:

Quote:


  Brilliant would have been cutting the funding forcing and end to the conflict without pissing off one of the few friendly middle eastern countries. 




Brilliant isn't the word for that; I believe the word is impossible.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7519161 - 10/15/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
So our government is consistent in passing resolutions to define what happened in history rather than letting history speak for itself?  Glad to know that she is in the "lets rewrite history through legislation" camp rather than "let history speak for itself camp".




History doesn't speak for itself when there are forces that seek to manipulate history - our government, coupled with the number of governments that have already done so, passing such a resolution applies diplomatic pressure on a government that attempts to shrug history off. For one thing, I don't understand how passing a resolution that states that a country recognizes an oppression of a group of people "rewrites" history - sounds like formal acknowledgement of history to me. :strokebeard:

This is a pretty standard means of diplomacy, certainly not unprecedented. I think it is important that governments formally acknowledge such transgressions upon the civil rights of human beings. It is a means by which history cannot be forgotten by governments, hopefully preventing genocide in the future. :wink:

Quote:


So why didn't she try to pass a resolution in the past?




I am almost certain that this isn't the first time it has come up.

Quote:


Perhaps it isn't the right time because it isn't something that congress should be doing at all.




Why not?

Quote:


Brilliant.  Too much of a douche to end the war like she promised those that voted for her, so instead, she is going to piss off one of the few friendly countries we have in the region to make it more difficult to fight.  Bring the troops home, but don't fuck them over because you can't keep a campaign promise.




Everyone realizes that the Democrats do not command enough of a majority to end the war out right. I don't understand how Turkey being removed as a point from which we supply the war could be construed as her "fucking the troops over" - sounds just like "we can't stop funding the war because it will hurt our troops".

How would she be fucking them over, exactly? :sherlock: If a military officer sends troops into warfare without adequate supplies, it is them who fuck the troops over, but I'm sure they'd love to evade responsibility and say it was Nancy Pelosi. :smirk:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519182 - 10/15/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations?

Such a shallow view.  There is much more to the picture than Turkey as a military stepping stone.

> Brilliant isn't the word for that; I believe the word is impossible.

It wasn't impossible when they made the campaign promises.  How many voted to continue funding the war after they got elected?  :strokebeard:

I find it absurd to screw over relations with one of the few middle eastern countries that still have good will towards the US just to put a thorn in Bush.  I find it frightening that the history books are being written by congressional resolution, rather than academic research, just to put a thorn in Bush.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519204 - 10/15/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think you've overlooked a couple important points.

Regarding 'rewriting history', there are many people who believe that this did
not occur as the Armenians propose it did...that the casualties were an
unfortunate side effect of war.

Do a google search for 'armenian genocide' and 'armenian genocide lie' and
read the arguments presented by both sides...neither appear outwardly
polished, professional or substantiated, but each side has their claims
nonetheless.

Why does this singular memo that the Armenians present as proof of government
sanctioned genocide contain spelling and grammatical errors? Why won't they
present it for independent review when they have it in their possession in
the UK?

I don't understand how Turkey being removed as a point from which we supply the
war could be construed as her "fucking the troops over"


By some estimates, nearly 70% of our soldier's beans, bullets and bulletproof
vests get to Iraq via air and sea ports. Turkey is the primary logistical hub
for this war.

Sure, you can argue that the troops were sent in undergeared, this is not
necessarily germane to the argument that jeopardizing Incirlik and the ports
on the mediterranean means Pelosi's congress is exacerbating an already bad
situation and may just be a really underhanded way of dissolving this conflict.

Instead of through policy and diplomacy it looks as though congress is ramrodding
a trivial bill through in an effort to weaken the war's infrastructure. The
costs of this approach will be borne primarily by the troops on the ground.


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: Seuss]
    #7519324 - 10/15/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> So, which foot would be cut off by Turkey deciding that they did not wish for us to utilize their lands as a launch point for war, or any other possible consequence of cold relations?

Such a shallow view.  There is much more to the picture than Turkey as a military stepping stone.




A question is not a view. I realize there is much more to the picture. You stated that we would be cutting off our own foot, I asked how. You tell me. :wink:

Quote:


It wasn't impossible when they made the campaign promises.  How many voted to continue funding the war after they got elected?  :strokebeard:




:shrug: All I stated was that it would be impossible. I don't have voting figures in front of me, but I'm not concerned with that, as all I've suggested was that utilizing a diplomatic move to interfere with the logistics of the war is a strategic, intelligent maneuver. :hehehe:

Quote:


I find it absurd to screw over relations with one of the few middle eastern countries that still have good will towards the US just to put a thorn in Bush.




It sounds like one of the few Middle Eastern countries that is more willing to work with us in beneficial ways is willing to screw over relations with us if we acknowledge history for what it is, not the other way around. I think it is irresponsible of the United States to not acknowledge an act of pronounced, deliberate human suffering in order to have our back scratched.

Forty states of this country have resolutions formally acknowledging the Armenian genocide as historical truth. I think it would only make sense that the federal government represented the people's interest in acknowledging that we recognize history. If the Turkish government does not wish to do business with us because we will not avert our eyes to what has occured in the past, when they could simply acknowledge it and move on, then they are the ones who are screwing over relations. The United States formally recognizes all of our genocides and abuse of civil rights. Why is it so difficult for Turkey to do so? Perhaps when they realize that the world will not ignore history, they will come to terms with what has occured, and then we can move on and relate once more.

Quote:


  I find it frightening that the history books are being written by congressional resolution, rather than academic research, just to put a thorn in Bush.




Congress isn't writing any history books. :what:

Apparently the American people have read the history books and the academic research, and have chosen to have their representatives recognize that they have. I don't understand why you are frightened by that. :shrug:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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Like being here
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7519348 - 10/15/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
Regarding 'rewriting history', there are many people who believe that this did
not occur as the Armenians propose it did...that the casualties were an
unfortunate side effect of war.




The awareness regarding the occurence is not resultant from Armenian proposals that it did. This isn't Armenian viewpoint vs. Turkish viewpoint.

Quote:


Do a google search for 'armenian genocide' and 'armenian genocide lie' and
read the arguments presented by both sides...neither appear outwardly
polished, professional or substantiated, but each side has their claims
nonetheless.




I've reviewed information accessed in this manner, and continue to do so.

Quote:


Instead of through policy and diplomacy it looks as though congress is ramrodding
a trivial bill through in an effort to weaken the war's infrastructure. The
costs of this approach will be borne primarily by the troops on the ground.




Only if those costs are transferred by the military, onto the troops on the ground.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519365 - 10/15/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

95% of all IED-proof vehicles being deployed to Iraq go through Turkey.

If Turkey decides to suddenly pull the plug on this there is an inherent
cost to rerouting and moving all the vehicles, fuel and supplies both in
terms of time and money.

Ultimately, regardless of how valiantly the army acts, this silly motion
being funded by a monied minority (approximately 1mil in the US) and passed
by a lame-duck congress has the potential to cost American servicemen their
lives.

Note, I'm not one to go down the path of O'Reilly where honest discourse
leads to 'risking the lives of US servicemen', but in this particular case
I think that Pelosi and team are being very short sighted...and for what?!

what sort of "moral superiority" does this really buy us when we are killing
civilians DAILY.

it's a farce.

it doesn't warrant time on the floor.

it's a distracting mini-wedge-issue.


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: afoaf]
    #7519417 - 10/15/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
95% of all IED-proof vehicles being deployed to Iraq go through Turkey.

If Turkey decides to suddenly pull the plug on this there is an inherent
cost to rerouting and moving all the vehicles, fuel and supplies both in
terms of time and money.




Clearly.

Quote:


Ultimately, regardless of how valiantly the army acts, this silly motion
being funded by a monied minority (approximately 1mil in the US) and passed
by a lame-duck congress has the potential to cost American servicemen their
lives.




Provided, of course, that the military exposes them to unnecessary risk.

Quote:


Note, I'm not one to go down the path of O'Reilly where honest discourse
leads to 'risking the lives of US servicemen', but in this particular case
I think that Pelosi and team are being very short sighted...and for what?!




In what way are they being short-sighted?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Recognize the Armenian genocide [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7519461 - 10/15/07 01:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

like the military doesn't already have enough to worry about, now they
have to reorganize their entire logistical chain because congress wants
to pass a bill recognizing a historically-questionable event?


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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