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chodamunky
Cheers!


Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
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I now know what Descartes must of felt like
#7503087 - 10/09/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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on my last low dose trip, I explored knowledge and how I could possibly trust what I know, and even what I feel. I felt utterly 'baseless', like I had no solid foundation to build up from, that is, I couldn't find any footing for why I believe the things I do, why I act the way I act, why I feel the way I do, etc. It's like there was a big metaphorical void to who I really am, and all the neat little explanations I have collected over the years seemed to fall away into the unknown and uncertain. Anyone else go through this before?
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TripityDooDaDay
Prick


Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 2,046
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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: chodamunky]
#7503227 - 10/09/07 09:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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After tripping on many things for many years but most especially many very high salvia doses I feel like that all the time. I would say tripping or not but how do I really know this isn't a trip? I feel like at any time I might turn my head or hear a certain sound and realize that this life is just another dream or trip. One gives way to another and that to another...
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chojin
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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: TripityDooDaDay]
#7504138 - 10/10/07 02:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think it's kind of refreshing to know (don't get caught in a semantics loop) that thoughts or beliefs can't do reality justice. Your thoughts can't cover every intricacy, or doing, of nature. You can't summarize everything with a belief system. Thoughts are just representations of reality, not reality itself.
Hope that makes some sense to you.
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SapphireCat
Seeker



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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: chojin]
#7504390 - 10/10/07 07:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Personally i found it rather depressing at first to lose my base. but since i lost the trust in my base, i feel alot more free. I do as i do in a trip, i observe, i think about my observations, and then i subtly take control and form it to the experience i want.
yet i still half wish i never entered into the world of the psyche. ignorance is indeed bliss. Although only in hindsight, since you don't know what you had until it's gone.
-------------------- Beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on Simplicity ~Plato
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undergrounder
fluffy bunny



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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: SapphireCat]
#7504661 - 10/10/07 09:23 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know what Descartes felt like but i didn't need psychedelics to come to that conclusion.
Nothing is certain, there is no truth, no free will, we are all senseless automatone powerless to change the course of our lives. The only thing you know is you think, there for you exist. We are all just a one in a trillion chance of the massive randomness that is existence. Revel in it.
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RIP Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
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Nipples
Liberty Chap


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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: undergrounder]
#7505089 - 10/10/07 12:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey, undergrounder, are you sure about that ... I mean, is what your saying the truth. lol!
The more I analyse things, the less sense they make. The only time I've ever felt that I really know something for sure, it's after I've managed to let go of everything that I believe is true (I mean everything, that I live on planet earth, that I'm a human, that I am an individual existing in time and space, the whole lot). For me, this takes a little more than a low dose Then, later on, I can't quite remember what the truth was coz, it seems, the truth is entirely the wrong shape and size to fit into my normal cute little every-day consciousness. All I'm left with is a few words and concepts (peace, beauty, oneness, love, infinity, ...) but I know I can never fully comprehend the truth in this normal waking consciousness, so I don't bother myself trying to work it all out, rationally. No theory can explain it. But, these experiences are precious gifts that have enhanced my life no end, and have taught me so much. If a trip makes us feel we are losing our grip on all those things we hold dear, all those things we believe in, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I believe it brings us one step closer to reality.
Of course, if the rug has been pulled from under me AND I'm feeling exhausted (I've stayed up all night, or the trip's been a bit stressful, or I've too many chemicals in my system, or ...), then I'm hardly likely to see the bright side of my belief systems being shattered. It's one argument for being careful about the situations in which we chose to have these powerful experiences.
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Orbus
The Liberator


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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: chojin]
#7505134 - 10/10/07 12:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
chojin said: I think it's kind of refreshing to know (don't get caught in a semantics loop) that thoughts or beliefs can't do reality justice. Your thoughts can't cover every intricacy, or doing, of nature. You can't summarize everything with a belief system. Thoughts are just representations of reality, not reality itself.
Hope that makes some sense to you.
This is exactly how I feel. True freedom only comes when you give up looking for things to stand or lean on. And this includes the idea of self. Descartes didn't follow his project of doubt far enough. He sneaks his presumption of an "I" into his "i think therefore i am" as the one thing that can't be doubted. The "I" or ego can be doubted. In reality the only thing that we can know for sure is that "there is thinking" This is one of MANY problems with his system that any philosophy 101 student can see.
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------------------------------------------------------ Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery -- the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets -- is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together. - Alan Watts
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination


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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: Orbus]
#7505289 - 10/10/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was born without a base, and have been in an existential dilema ever since. Psychedelics are one of the few things that give me a sense of having a base, or as I like to put it, having my feet on the ground.
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chojin
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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: Freedom]
#7506505 - 10/10/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The only thing about the notion of self that I think I might object with is the notion "Here I am... I begin in this body and end with it". And I don't necessarily mean that only in reference to time. I mean it like this. "Here I am. The essence of who I am is contained within this body and doesn't exist anywhere outside of it." The reason I object with this is because the human is an open system. There are so many things which we rely upon that exist outside of our bodies. And there are so many things which act upon our bodies which we may or may not be aware.
You're connected to the atmosphere by the fact that you have to let it in your body by breathing it, you're connected to it by the fact that your ears depend on it to detect anything else that's moving through it, you're connected to the Earth by the fact that you rely on what grows from it to support your own body and to regenerate.
And there are so many other things which you can take into account.
So in actuality, I'm everything which I depend on and everything which ultimately acts upon me. I'm this entire system which has been moving forever.
Edited by chojin (10/10/07 06:22 PM)
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undergrounder
fluffy bunny



Registered: 11/10/06
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Re: I now know what Descartes must of felt like [Re: Orbus]
#7507708 - 10/11/07 01:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nipples said: Hey, undergrounder, are you sure about that ... I mean, is what your saying the truth. lol!
Good point and i guess even what i said is not truth, but even to say that is a contradiction. But the fact that we can't even prove that there is no truth backs up the case that there is indeed no truth.
... Yes i know its circular but you get the point. I think its an impossible proposition to put into words without forming a contradiction, but the overall idea sounds valid to me 
Quote:
Orbus said:
And this includes the idea of self. Descartes didn't follow his project of doubt far enough. He sneaks his presumption of an "I" into his "i think therefore i am" as the one thing that can't be doubted. The "I" or ego can be doubted. In reality the only thing that we can know for sure is that "there is thinking" This is one of MANY problems with his system that any philosophy 101 student can see.
He also thought that to say "I seem to believe X" is another foundation that can't be doubted.
And also of course that there is a God and that a benevolent God wouldn't have given us brains if we weren't capable of knowing the truth. And that therefore it is possible to find truth through proper reason.
... which i find pretty far fetched.
but on your point, if we accept that "there is thinking" then who or what is it doing the thinking? Can thought come out of nothing? Is it possible to have an effect without a cause?
I don't think he'd suggest that "I" is solely limited to the 'ego', given that theories of id and ego weren't developed until after his time.
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RIP Bigger and bolder and rougher and tougher in other words sucka there is no other...
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