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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design
    #7496918 - 10/08/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Exiled" is scheduled for release in February '08 and is yet another step backwards. Ben Stein, the dead-pan humorist and right-wing commentator, narrates this flick that 'documents' how Creationists and IDers are being suppressed and exiled from Universities and other research centers for their religious views by the evil Neo-Darwinists.

There is already great controversy because apparently the prominent scientists interviewed were deceived as to the purpose and nature of the film. Creationists lying to make a point? :eek: WWJD?

More importantly, the film does not make a case for Intelligent Design as one might expect, as that is what the producers believe in. NooooOOOOoooo! It is all about how persecuted they are for holding non-scientific views in a scientific venue. Poor, pathetic IDers. Why present your research and data when you can whine instead about how the normal rules of science don't apply to you? Let's go back the Dark Ages when ignorance ruled the day.

Naturally, the Fundies are applauding this movie with both unevolved claws.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/08/07 12:29 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7497368 - 10/08/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ugly beliefs die hard.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Icelander]
    #7497515 - 10/08/07 01:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Someone clear this up for me, please. My understanding is that creationists believe a god created the universe beause a text says so. IDer's understand the science, and have delved deeply into it, only to continue to see things like symmetry, ridiculous probabilities come true, universal constants tweaked to many decimals, etc. They decide it must have been designed, not necessarily by a god, but even by some higher dimensional civilization, or this could be a computer simulation, etc.

That's what I've gathered just from hearing the terms tossed about, but I'm not positive. I get confused when I see IDer's get ragged on as hard as creationists, as if they are one and the same. I see a large difference, but could understand it wrong.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7497534 - 10/08/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think you are correct. I think there is a reasonable possibility for ID.

Moderator edit: Removed personalism.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by fireworks_god (10/08/07 01:38 PM)


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Icelander]
    #7500388 - 10/09/07 03:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Kinematics]
    #7500404 - 10/09/07 03:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kinematics said:





"Help, we're being oppressed!" sounds more convincing than "Shit, people aren't so gullible anymore."


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7504617 - 10/10/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We're being oppressed! Come see the violence inherit in the system!


I'd like to know more about ID before I decide to take up an opinion on whether they're looney or not. :0

Any good reads?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Maverick]
    #7504765 - 10/10/07 10:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There really is very little to say about Intelligent Design. Unlike a real 'theory' it has no supporting data, is not falsifiable and has no predictive ability.

The basic premise is: Humans (and other creatures) are so complex that they MUST have been designed. Earth has the perfect rotation speed, the perfect distance from the sun, the perfect magnetosphere, the perfect temperature range, etc. to maintain life. Also the balance of the four physical forces and constants that control the universe also seem perfect to prevent the universe from collapsing or expanding too quickly and allowing stars and planets to form.

Therefore there must have been a Designer (read: Creator / God).

This argument does not differ (in my mind) that whenever our ancestors could not understand something, they filled in the blanks by invoking a God or gods as an 'explanation'.

The IDers cannot add to or expand upon this 'theory', nor can they even detail how to tell if something in nature was designed. Their entire argument rests on incredulity, "Well, look at that! It is so amazing, it HAD to be designed!"

That is fine as a belief system, but to expect it to be taught as a science or in conjunction with science in secular institutions is ludicrous.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7504790 - 10/10/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)


That is fine as a belief system, but to expect it to be taught as a science or in conjunction with science in secular institutions is ludicrous.


:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7504815 - 10/10/07 10:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
"Well, look at that! It is so amazing, it HAD to be designed!"




While this is the conclusion many come to, I think the more educated supporters don't see it in this fashion. The difference between ID and the old creation myths is that every piece of science we have come up with from this point hasn't disproved an idea of a creation (how could it, it will always be plausible), and also that it seems to support it (in their eyes). The universe is an amazingly finely tuned mechanism. The probabilities are so close to zero that you have to start toying with ideas of infinities and eternities, which get as equally insane as the creation myths. These people I'm referring to aren't saying "yes or no" to it, but are saying "it's as possible as anythign else". This is what I was getting at with my "The Modern Myth" thread posted not long ago.

Quote:


That is fine as a belief system, but to expect it to be taught as a science or in conjunction with science in secular institutions is ludicrous.




I definitely agree here.


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


Edited by jonathanseagull (10/10/07 10:38 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7504918 - 10/10/07 11:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

My understanding is that creationists believe a god created the universe beause a text says so.




Yep, that is how I understand it.

Quote:

IDer's understand the science, and have delved deeply into it, only to continue to see things like symmetry, ridiculous probabilities come true, universal constants tweaked to many decimals, etc.




Nope, not even close. The ID folks realized that they can't get creationism taught in science classes as science, because it isn't, so they took their broken understanding of the scientific method and tried to force creationism to fit it in order to get creationism taught in school as science.

Quote:

They decide it must have been designed, not necessarily by a god, but even by some higher dimensional civilization, or this could be a computer simulation, etc.




I've only spoken with a few, but every one of them claimed God was the hand that designed everything, not a higher civilization or a computer or anything else. ID is creationism wrapped in bling.

Quote:

The universe is an amazingly finely tuned mechanism. The probabilities are so close to zero that you have to start toying with ideas of infinities and eternities, which get as equally insane as the creation myths.




A penny is an amazingly fined tuned mechanism. It has two sides! It is obvious that an intelligent being must have been present in order to design something that has two sides as it couldn't exist as a single sided entity, therefore ID must be true!

Quote:

These people I'm referring to aren't saying "yes or no" to it, but are saying "it's as possible as anythign else". This is what I was getting at with my "The Modern Myth" thread posted not long ago.




Unfortunately, this isn't science, and the ID folks want ID taught as science. It may be "as possible as anything else," but it lacks any evidence what-so-ever that it is true. With something like the big bang theory, or the evolution theory, there are tangible "things" that can be measured to support the theory. With creationism and ID there is nothing to measure. They are philosophies, not scientific theories.

Scientific method:

1) State a hypothesis

The earth was created by an intelligent designer

2) Create an experiement to test the hypothesis

Hmmm... oops, no can do

3) Based upon the results of the experiement, state a conclusion or repeat step 1 with the greater understanding learned from step 2.

Unfortunately, with out being able to perform step 2, one is not following the scientific method, thus one is not working with science. qed


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OfflineBard
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Seuss]
    #7504954 - 10/10/07 11:44 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Scientific method:

1) State a hypothesis

The earth was created by an intelligent designer

2) Create an experiement to test the hypothesis

Hmmm... oops, no can do

3) Based upon the results of the experiement, state a conclusion or repeat step 1 with the greater understanding learned from step 2.




And how would you apply this to evolutionary scinece? What kind of experiment proves that evolution exists?


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Bard]
    #7505024 - 10/10/07 12:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

> What kind of experiment proves that evolution exists?

Again, a lack of understanding towards the scientific method by using the word "proves". Notice that I clearly stated evolutionary theory.

> And how would you apply this to evolutionary scinece?

1) More complex organisms evolved from less complex ogranisms

2) Look at DNA sequences of many simple organisms and see if we can trace these DNA sequences in more complex organisms

2) Look at fossil records and see if we notice changes over time that would indicate a lesser organism is evolving into a more complex organism

2) Look at niche environments and see how they relate to general populations

2) ... etc ...

3) Based upon the results of the various 2's, come up with a conclusion for or against the theory. Based upon what we learned from the various 2's, apply the knowledge and repeat step 1.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Bard]
    #7505078 - 10/10/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I believe that there is even a differentiation amongst "IDers", and to use the term so broadly is to embrace a stereotypical generalization. Of course there are people using the idea to promote their Christian agenda. Then there are also the scholarly type who are seeking the truth, and don't dogmatically swing to religion or science, but sit in the groundlessness of the big "who knows?".

I agree it is not science, any more that the often-embraced Anthropic principle. It is not science, but it definitely is one of the choices science has in front of it.

At some point (this point, and it will keep moving deeper, but will stay the same), science will reach its boundaries, and philosophy and metaphysics takes over in the realm of speculation. Nothing wrong with that. To say those speculations are correct is wrong, and to say they are incorrect is wrong.

Basically, to sum up my position on this topic:

Does it belong in schools? Yes, but not in the science department, only in the philosophy department.
Can science disprove ID? No. Can ID prove itself? no. We'll never know the answer, nothing has changed.

We could do like Carl Sagan said, and possibly count one of our transcendental numbers out to 100 zillion decimal places, put it in base 73 or some random choice, and find a message saying "Hi, I'm the guy who created all of this mess. Pretty cool isn't it? You must have gotten pretty advanced to discover my super secret hidden message." We could find that message and scientists would say "well, in an infinite universe, you could sit a monkey down and EVENTUALLY he would type out shakespeare's bibliography." Which is true. But at that point, which seems less probable.

I hate to do it, but Icelander is correct when he mentions the fear of death. Some will cite creation because they feel like it puts the control in some benevolent super being, and that takes away fear and makes them feel ok. Scientists will never agree to such a thing because that view is scary to them. They'd rather it all be random lucky occurrence than be slaves to some crazy super being or beings. And that's fine too. It's all about comfort.

The truth is we'll never know, and to argue about it is a waste of time, as the Buddha says. It's not conducive to happiness to speculate on metaphysical questions.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7505224 - 10/10/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I hate to do it, but Icelander is correct when he mentions the fear of death.

:monkeydance: :headbanger:  :mypleasure:  :hairmetal:  :irishtoast:  :cheer:  :congrats:  :sunny:  :pinkelephant:  :banana:  :rastana:  :bananamusic:  :apple:  :tomato:  :fireworship:  :hitlerdance:  :jammingout:  :band:  :adam1975:  :salmon:  :olympics:  :olympics:  :jiggly:  :hamsterdance:  :shuffle:  :discoboogie:  :winner: :ass:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Icelander]
    #7505261 - 10/10/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The probability of any event happening AFTER it has happened no matter how unlikely is always 1:1.

I went through this time and again in my decades playing backgammon. Someone rolls 5 sets of 66 in a row then a spectator asks, "Wow! What were the odds of THAT happening?" And then I chime in 1:1 or 100%. Then I get the standard dumbfounded look. "NO WAY!", is the usual response, "It's got to be like a trillion to 1!"

This shows a huge misunderstanding of probability.


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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7505720 - 10/10/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I always hate it when creationists claim an event to be to statistically unlikely to be true. I don't care how small the chances are of something happening. Given an infinite amount of time everything becomes probable.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7505727 - 10/10/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
The probability of any event happening AFTER it has happened no matter how unlikely is always 1:1.

I went through this time and again in my decades playing backgammon. Someone rolls 5 sets of 66 in a row then a spectator asks, "Wow! What were the odds of THAT happening?" And then I chime in 1:1 or 100%. Then I get the standard dumbfounded look. "NO WAY!", is the usual response, "It's got to be like a trillion to 1!"

This shows a huge misunderstanding of probability.




There obviously is a difference between "it did happen" and "for it to have happened".


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #7505762 - 10/10/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Scarfmeister said:
I always hate it when creationists claim an event to be to statistically unlikely to be true. I don't care how small the chances are of something happening. Given an infinite amount of time everything becomes probable.




Then we wait.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #7505788 - 10/10/07 03:08 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Scarfmeister said:
I always hate it when creationists claim an event to be to statistically unlikely to be true. I don't care how small the chances are of something happening. Given an infinite amount of time everything becomes probable.




Who gave anyone an infinite amount of time?


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7505809 - 10/10/07 03:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The universe...


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Seuss]
    #7507691 - 10/11/07 01:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

1) More complex organisms evolved from less complex ogranisms




View a true lecture of earth history in regards to biology and its quite simple and easy to see the path of evolution. We might now have every single step proven, but we certainly have it clearly shown with all kinds of species, not to mention the most recent work on the Galapago's Islands in the last 30 years with bird beek size/shape.

Its a fascinating study, there is now recent argument made to a specific top ancestor of mammals that survived a massive extinction event that could be the ultimate 'lucky break' for homosapien's.

The thing I enjoy most about Intelligent design though is the simplicity of proving it wrong. The argument of 6000 years being the age of our earth, is often jokingly refered to as the era we discovered glue.

The vast scientific proof of the age of our planet is beyond overwhelming, yet its easy for religious institutions to push this agenda because they are afraid to lose even more of their flock to the modern era. The era of logic, reason and anti theism.

Its the battle of the bulge for religions right now, but soon we'll have the battle won and religion will not recover from facts and truth's.

Even though religion has already seen biblical fact disproven, it cannot ignore the logic and reason they will face in the next 100 years.


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OfflineBard
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Seuss]
    #7508008 - 10/11/07 07:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Its interesting, what you say, I think the ID believers' problem with Evolutionary theory is that they don't understand it... (like me). But they are right in that if they don't understand it, how would their children in their religious schools would understand it? They want to teach something which is understandable for minors, like Santa Claus and God, and ID... I think some middle road should be followed...


--------------------
So dreaming let's you know reality exists.



I don't belive. I fear.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: New Movie "Exiled": Evolution vs. Intelligent Design [Re: Bard]
    #7508617 - 10/11/07 11:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The middle road between truth and fiction is fiction.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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