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AIONsufferer
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Did God want Eve to eat the fruit?
#7492071 - 10/06/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, for us to know happy from sad, well from sick, starving from full etc etc don't you think that God wanted Eve to eat the fruit so that we would have free will?
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Icelander
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492118 - 10/06/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think someone wants to believe that fairy tales are real.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492227 - 10/06/07 06:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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2:16. And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: Praecepitque ei dicens ex omni ligno paradisi comede
2:17. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death. De ligno autem scientiae boni et mali ne comedas in quocumque enim die comederis ex eo morte morieris
I think that's pretty straightforward, no?
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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...
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onlynow
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i ate the fruit, became atomized, and ever since then ive been searching for this so called "unification"
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AlteredAgain
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492248 - 10/06/07 06:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i am of the view that free will is not just handed to us, but is something we must grow into through self-cultivation and discipline.
a human being running their life on automated habit and conditioning can distinguish happy from sad and any other duality just as well as the liberated person.
i don't believe this story holds up.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7492419 - 10/06/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Adam and Eve had free will. They had the knowledge enough to choose wrong, and enough to choose right. It wasn't the tree of free will, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That means having in your mind the recognition of the presence of not only good, but evil also. Understandably, this is quite a mental and spiritual load on a person. It is a temptation that requires a lot more trouble and discernment. There is no reason for Adam and Eve to necessarily have all of this knowledge. If they had trusted in God, then he would have watched over them and he would have worried about it himself.
Before Adam and Even sinned, all they knew was the graciousness and goodness of the Lord. They knew what not to do, but they did not fully understand the consequences, the Spiritual nature of sin, and the consequence of sin, death. Unfortunately, when they came to knowledge of sin, it was in the most unfortunate manner.
There is no need for us to understand everything, and if you think you must fully understand these things to have freedom of thought or to be wise, then you will never be free.
Even now, we do not have unlimited free will, but we choose according to the ability of our minds, which is predetermined according to the infinite wisdom and divine nature of God.
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7492489 - 10/06/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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A literal interpretation would lead to that conclusion, yes. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good or evil, but were free to do as they were able. They could commit evil acts and not realize it. Indeed, by eating the fruit they committed an act of evil, and were made well aware of that fact once the deed was done. It might be said that knowledge of good and evil infringes on one's ability to exercise free will- if you have been indoctrinated with certain morals, religious or otherwise, you will be unwilling or unable to do certain things. One who follows the word of God as delivered in this story would be unwilling or unable to kill another person, not because he is physically incapable of doing so, nor because he is mentally incapable of figuring out how, but because he is aware that the act of murder is an evil deed, and is aware of the consequences prescribed by his chosen (or more likely, born-into) religion.
But to tie all this to the OP's question, I don't believe that these events literally happened. They are stories meant to teach how a person should act, and why. As such, I don't believe that God wanted Eve to eat the apple. Experiencing rage or hate or lust or gluttony, etc, is not evil. The actions that lead to them can be, and how we react can be as well. I believe that is how man has always been, imbued with the capacity to do many things, but intelligent enough to learn what is inherently a good or bad decision.
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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492563 - 10/06/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
AIONsufferer said: Ok, for us to know happy from sad, well from sick, starving from full etc etc don't you think that God wanted Eve to eat the fruit so that we would have free will?
I once read a gnostic writing that mentioned that God was really Satan and The Serpent was really God, and the author (Moses) had it backwards due to the treachery of this "God". Satan (posed as God) wanted to keep humanity imprisoned in the garden, with all this paradise to keep them from finding out what they really are. God (as the serpent) got them to eat from the tree and embark on the journey to self-realization.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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AIONsufferer
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
Quote:
AIONsufferer said: Ok, for us to know happy from sad, well from sick, starving from full etc etc don't you think that God wanted Eve to eat the fruit so that we would have free will?
I once read a gnostic writing that mentioned that God was really Satan and The Serpent was really God, and the author (Moses) had it backwards due to the treachery of this "God". Satan (posed as God) wanted to keep humanity imprisoned in the garden, with all this paradise to keep them from finding out what they really are. God (as the serpent) got them to eat from the tree and embark on the journey to self-realization.
Man I would of loved to read that
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a_guy_named_ai
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Quote:
I once read a gnostic writing that mentioned that God was really Satan and The Serpent was really God, and the author (Moses) had it backwards due to the treachery of this "God". Satan (posed as God) wanted to keep humanity imprisoned in the garden, with all this paradise to keep them from finding out what they really are. God (as the serpent) got them to eat from the tree and embark on the journey to self-realization.
This type of doctrine is derived from false babylonian mystery religion invented by Nimrod. A very small portion of the story:
Quote:
Nimrod and his wife Semiramis (the ancient "queen of heaven") were confirmed by their priests as gods and given homage as Marduk and Astarte.
There is one common element to Nimrod/Marduk in all his manifestations and that is the symbol of the snake/serpent/dragon. Nimrod took the dragon as his personal emblem, so that from him spring various dragon myths and their special association with apocalyptic events. Strikingly the only favorable accounts of dragons are found among the Hamitic peoples of the world (like Nimrod) including the Ethiopians, Hittites, Chinese, Japanese and American Indian.
The thread of serpent lore is evident in all of Marduk's guises regardless of nation, pantheon, or role. Poseidon was accompanied by creatures who were half man and half snake as well as by the sea serpent Leviathan (mentioned in Job). Aesculapeus/Chiron/Hermes were all associated with the cadduceus of entwined serpents. The story of Apollo and the python is well known as that of Hercules/Melkarth and the Hydra. The god Triton was half snake.
Quote:
The Hebrew historian Flavius Josephus, in the Antiquities of the Jews, depicts Nimrod as a tyrannical leader, demanding complete dominion and control over the people. As Josephus writes: "He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He gradually changed the government into tyranny - seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence upon his power." He likely rose to power by being a mighty protector over the land with his fearless gift of hunting and killing predatory wild animals that were a threat to human civilization, therefore receiving the title "mighty hunter before the Lord (Gen. 10:9). In post-biblical traditions, Nimrod, the inciter of "rebellion" who ruled Babel, was often identified as a giant, or Nephilim (Gen. 6:4), equivalent to the Anakim of Deuteronomy (Duet. 2:21-20;9:2). He was the chief instigator of the tower of Babel. This was a revolt which led to building a tower in the course of staging revenge against God, lest He flood the world again. The tower was a symbol of worship and protection and became well known by many as the ziggurat of Etemenanki, in honor of the Babylonian supreme god Marduk; a dominant central point of worship that spread out to many other nations that were to come (thirty-four of these staged towers have now been located in twenty-seven ancient cities of the Middle East - the greatest of them all was the one at Babylon).
The prophecy and revelation that had been handed down generation after generation to the sons and daughters of Adam was taken by Nimrod and Semiramis and twisted for his own purpose - to deify himself and his whore of a wife. He intended to make himself God and acsribe the prophcy of the messiah to himself and turn the people of the ancient east against God.
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7492925 - 10/06/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool, and it doesn't surprise me. Most of Christianity and Judaism is derived from Mesopotamian mythology. Two short examples that I know of being the flood story derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Moses and the Ten Commandments derived from Hammurabi receiving his Code from Shamash the sun-god.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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a_guy_named_ai
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No, you've got it backwards, the mesopotamian mythology is derived from God's truth which had been mutilated by people who had generation after generation fallen farther and farther away from God. There are flood stories all over the world, not just the one from the epic of gilgamesh.
Obviously one story had to be the source of all of these.
Take a look here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0329gilgamesh.asp
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fivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7493265 - 10/07/07 12:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Taken and slightly modified from chapter 2 of "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" By Jerome Zanchius. -
"Adam fell in consequence of the Divine decree, let us consider:
God was either willing that Adam should fall, or unwilling, or indifferent about it.
If God was unwilling that Adam should transgress, how came it to pass that he did? Is man stronger and is Satan wiser than He that made them? Surely no. Again, could not God, had it so pleased Him, have hindered the tempter's access to paradise? or have created man, as He did the elect angels, with a will invariably determined to good only and incapable of being biassed to evil? or, at least, have made the grace and strength, with which He endued Adam, actually effectual to the resisting of all solicitations to sin?
Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it, for the decree of God is nothing else but the seal and ratification of His Will. He does nothing but what He decreed, and He decreed nothing which He did not will, and both will and decree are absolutely eternal, though the execution of both be in time.
The only way to evade the force of this reasoning is to say that "God was indifferent and unconcerned whether man stood or fell." But in what a shameful, unworthy light does this represent the Deity! Is it possible for us to imagine that God could be an idle, careless spectator of one of the most important events that ever came to pass? Are not "the very hairs of our head all numbered"? or does "a sparrow fall to the ground without our heaveuly Father"? If, then, things the most trivial and worthless are subject to the appointment of His decree and the control of His providence, how much more is man, the masterpiece of this lower creation? and above all that man Adam, who when recent from his Maker's hands was the living image of God Himself, and very little inferior to angels! and on whose perseverance was suspended the welfare not of himself only, but likewise that of the whole world.
But, so far was God from being indifferent in this matter, that there is nothing whatever about which He is so, for He worketh all things, without exception," after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11), consequently, if He positively wills whatever is done, He cannot be indifferent with regard to anything. On the whole, if God was not unwilling that Adam should fall, He must have been willing that he should, since between God's willing and unwilling there is no medium. And is it not highly rational as well as Scriptural, nay, is it not absolutely necessary to suppose that the fall was not contrary to the will and determination of God? since, if it was, His will (which the apostle represents as being irresistible, Rom. 9:19) was apparently frustrated and His determination rendered of worse than none effect. And how dishonourable to, how inconsistent with, and how notoriously subversive of the dignity of God such a blasphemous supposition would be, and how irreconcileable with every one of His allowed attributes is very easy to observe."
As far as free will - man since the Fall has lost "free will". Man only acts according to his nature, which since the Fall is wicked. Man is "free" to act only within the confines of his inherent nature. But since the inherent nature is corrupt, man "freely" acts wickedly. This is spiritual bondage and man is not free in a spiritual sense.
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onlynow
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7493291 - 10/07/07 12:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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IMO using so much wordplay just creates confusion and duality. quit eating from the tree of knowledge!
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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Cracka_X
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: onlynow]
#7493319 - 10/07/07 12:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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oh my, is there really a debate on this?
This biblical nut flexing is ridiculous.
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Cracka_X]
#7493331 - 10/07/07 01:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The wonders of Christianity are far from being subject to reason.  I know I didn't say anything new but I just had to say it.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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onlynow
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Cracka_X]
#7493399 - 10/07/07 01:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just look at the story of the beginning of the world. God said to Adam and Eve, "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, and don't eat from the tree of life."
He had prohibited two trees. Both are the most significant things in life: wisdom and life — and God denies both. Then you can go on eating all kinds of grass and whatsoever you want. He does not say, "Don't eat marijuana, don't drink alcohol." No, He is not interested in that. Adam and Eve can smoke grass, that is allowed; can make wine from grapes, that is allowed.
Only two things are not allowed: they should not become knowers, they should remain ignorant; and they should not live, they should go on postponing life. And because they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge...they could not manage to eat the second tree's fruit, they were caught. After eating the fruit of knowledge they were speeding fast towards the tree of life but they were prevented immediately.
It is natural: anyone who has awareness, consciousness — which are the qualities of wisdom — his first thing will be to go deeper into life, to taste it as much as possible, to connect himself with its center, to be drowned in the mystery of life.
The story does not say it, but the story is not complete. I say to you, they were rushing immediately, because it is absolutely logical: after eating the fruit of knowledge they were rushing towards the tree of life. And that's why it was so easy for God to catch hold of them; otherwise, in the Garden of Eden there were so many millions of trees, where would He have found them? It would have taken eternity to search: rather than man searching for God, God would have been still searching for man, for where he is.
But I know how things would have happened — they are not told in the story. God, coming to know that they have eaten the fruit of knowledge, must have rushed immediately to the tree of life and waited there knowing that they must be coming. It is such simple logic, no Aristotle is needed. And certainly they were caught there. Both were rushing, naked, rejoicing, because for the first time their eyes were open. For the first time they were human beings; before this they were only animals amongst other animals...and God threw them out of the Garden of Eden. Since then, man has been longing for life, more life.
But the priests who represent the God that has driven you out of the Garden of Eden — the popes, the imams, the shankaracharyas, the rabbis, they all represent the same guy.
Strangely enough, nobody says that that guy was your first enemy. On the contrary, they say it was the poor serpent who convinced Eve, "You are being foolish by not eating from the tree of knowledge. God is jealous; He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of knowledge you will become wise. And He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of life you will be just like God. Then who is going to worship Him? He is jealous, afraid — that's why He has prevented you."
This serpent was humanity's first friend — but he is condemned. The friend is called the devil, and the enemy is called God. Strange are the ways of the human mind! You should thank the serpent! It is just because of the serpent that you have become what you have become. It is because of disobedience to God that you have attained a certain dignity, a pride of being human, a certain integrity, a certain individuality.
So instead of thanking God, change the phrase. Rather than saying, "Thank God!" say, "Thank the serpent!" It is just due to his compassion; otherwise why should he have bothered about you? He must have been a very compassionate fellow.
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Walter1496211
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: onlynow]
#7493447 - 10/07/07 02:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy" I drink to that every day.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7494454 - 10/07/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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If anyone is not subject to reason it is people who don't recognize the logic behind scripture. What I see so much is people attacking scripture for a logic that the bible does not employ at all. It's all over this thread.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7494460 - 10/07/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
If anyone is not subject to reason it is people who don't recognize the logic behind scripture.
And what would the "logic" behind the scripture might be?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7494623 - 10/07/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's on this page. see my post above near the beginning.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7494638 - 10/07/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I read that. My question is still standing.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7494702 - 10/07/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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If we're going to take the scripture literally and at face value, I've a few more questions:
Why would God create a "tree of knowledge" and a "tree of life" in the first place? Why would he make them accessible to those who should never consume of them? Did God create the Serpent? Why didn't God prevent Eve from eating the fruit? Or Adam, once she had fallen?
It's a bit like locking two toddlers in a room with candy and watching them on a camera from the next room. You can say, "Hey, don't eat that candy," but there's a pretty good chance on of them is going to do it anyway. You should be aware of what's going on in the room, unless you aren't watching the camera. And if someone else entered the room without my permission and tried to give the toddler the forbidden candy, you better believe I'd smite his ass. 
But, if I had a friend go into the room and said "Hey buddy, see if those kids will eat the candy," that's another story entirely. The kids might know that they're supposed to do what I tell them, but that doesn't mean they can't be mislead. The story, as the scripture tells it, is essentially allowing or being unaware of the third person in the room, allowing or being unaware that the third person is lying to the kids, allowing or being unaware of the kids eating the candy, and then kicking all three out of my house. 
Now, I'm pretty sure the whole thing is metaphor and not meant to be taken literally. The message here is that only God is infallible (ironic since he allowed those created in his image to fall), and that man is prone to mistakes. As such, while living he will never attain paradise. The entirety of the rest of the scriptures is meant to tell man how to best act while living so as to enjoy life and get into paradise on the other side.
Put it this way- unless you believe in demons and devils, over history Man has created several religions (from the standpoint of jonathon and others who hold a belief in one particular religion). Unless you've spoken directly with the creator, what proof do you have that a few thousand years ago, someone didn't sit down and write yours?
...that's what I thought.
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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...
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onlynow
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Quote:
Drink_Punk_Soda said:Why would God create a "tree of knowledge" and a "tree of life" in the first place?
why would we create language in the first place? 
Quote:
Why didn't God prevent Eve from eating the fruit? Or Adam, once she had fallen?
was god ever a human?
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Cracka_X
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ooo, I'm on my toes waiting for a response to that.
then again, I don't think I'll be surprised
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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leery11
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7495625 - 10/07/07 06:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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to OP
okay here is the fundamental flaw with this question
your question is fine, you are fine
what i mean is this question itself
lets say that you are a Christian, and you ask this question. The problem is that you aren't answering it for yourself. You would rather have someone else to tell you what to think. This means you do not trust yourself as being able to accurately interpret the Bible.
Now, the Church, the pastors. They might give you good answers, they might give you bad answers. But what Christians often say is that we are NOT SUPPOSED TO THINK FOR OURSELVES.
I saw this on a church sign 2 days ago.
So basically what we see in Christianity is that people are not reading the Bible and understanding it, they are letting a long lineage of colutrally accepted interpretation of a book took big for them to read being dictated back to them by authority figures.
This is where we get the myth of 'turn or burn' 'Jesus or die' 'god loves you so much he will send you to hell'
and even more wicked things such as giving money to get relatives out of purgatory and etc
now when we are allowed to interpret the Bible on our own, we will find true things in it, and they will set us at ease and free
this does not mean you should read it because it will brainwash you into a cultural timeline that is largely irrelevant but
you will learn about gnosis, about the Kingdom being Inward perhaps
if i write a 40 page treatise on the truth of all things you are either going to think i'm trying to start a cult, or that i am telling the truth and then i have control over you and i will randomly give you snippets of what i say and you will absorb my mind
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (10/07/07 06:25 PM)
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AIONsufferer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: leery11]
#7495832 - 10/07/07 09:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Man these answers just has my mind all messed up in what I believed.
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Cracka_X
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7495930 - 10/07/07 11:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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be a blank slate
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7495974 - 10/08/07 12:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Taken and slightly modified from chapter 2 of "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" By Jerome Zanchius. -
"Adam fell in consequence of the Divine decree, let us consider:
God was either willing that Adam should fall, or unwilling, or indifferent about it.
If God was unwilling that Adam should transgress, how came it to pass that he did? Is man stronger and is Satan wiser than He that made them? Surely no. Again, could not God, had it so pleased Him, have hindered the tempter's access to paradise? or have created man, as He did the elect angels, with a will invariably determined to good only and incapable of being biassed to evil? or, at least, have made the grace and strength, with which He endued Adam, actually effectual to the resisting of all solicitations to sin?
Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it, for the decree of God is nothing else but the seal and ratification of His Will. He does nothing but what He decreed, and He decreed nothing which He did not will, and both will and decree are absolutely eternal, though the execution of both be in time.
The only way to evade the force of this reasoning is to say that "God was indifferent and unconcerned whether man stood or fell." But in what a shameful, unworthy light does this represent the Deity! Is it possible for us to imagine that God could be an idle, careless spectator of one of the most important events that ever came to pass? Are not "the very hairs of our head all numbered"? or does "a sparrow fall to the ground without our heaveuly Father"? If, then, things the most trivial and worthless are subject to the appointment of His decree and the control of His providence, how much more is man, the masterpiece of this lower creation? and above all that man Adam, who when recent from his Maker's hands was the living image of God Himself, and very little inferior to angels! and on whose perseverance was suspended the welfare not of himself only, but likewise that of the whole world.
But, so far was God from being indifferent in this matter, that there is nothing whatever about which He is so, for He worketh all things, without exception," after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11), consequently, if He positively wills whatever is done, He cannot be indifferent with regard to anything. On the whole, if God was not unwilling that Adam should fall, He must have been willing that he should, since between God's willing and unwilling there is no medium. And is it not highly rational as well as Scriptural, nay, is it not absolutely necessary to suppose that the fall was not contrary to the will and determination of God? since, if it was, His will (which the apostle represents as being irresistible, Rom. 9:19) was apparently frustrated and His determination rendered of worse than none effect. And how dishonourable to, how inconsistent with, and how notoriously subversive of the dignity of God such a blasphemous supposition would be, and how irreconcileable with every one of His allowed attributes is very easy to observe."
As far as free will - man since the Fall has lost "free will". Man only acts according to his nature, which since the Fall is wicked. Man is "free" to act only within the confines of his inherent nature. But since the inherent nature is corrupt, man "freely" acts wickedly. This is spiritual bondage and man is not free in a spiritual sense.
This is some of the most rediculous nonsense I have ever heard in my life. Is this what you believe?? Where does the bible say man has no free will? Tell me! You can't, it's only in your own simple minded self imposed interpretation. You rule out free will before you even begin. You ignore the fact that the placement of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden was to test Adam and Eve. That's why God did it. But this requires Adam and Eve to have free will.
I suppose you have no free will either eh? Even though you use it all the time. You are a heretic among heretics.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: onlynow]
#7496046 - 10/08/07 01:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just look at the story of the beginning of the world. God said to Adam and Eve, "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, and don't eat from the tree of life."
No he didn't
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He had prohibited two trees.
No he didn't.
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Both are the most significant things in life: wisdom and life — and God denies both. Then you can go on eating all kinds of grass and whatsoever you want. He does not say, "Don't eat marijuana, don't drink alcohol." No, He is not interested in that. Adam and Eve can smoke grass, that is allowed; can make wine from grapes, that is allowed.
No he didn't and no he does not. If he had no intention of giving us wisdom and life then why are those central themes to the bible? Have yo ever read proverbs?
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Only two things are not allowed: they should not become knowers, they should remain ignorant; and they should not live, they should go on postponing life. And because they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge...they could not manage to eat the second tree's fruit, they were caught. After eating the fruit of knowledge they were speeding fast towards the tree of life but they were prevented immediately.
What are you talking about? This is pure imagination.
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It is natural: anyone who has awareness, consciousness — which are the qualities of wisdom — his first thing will be to go deeper into life, to taste it as much as possible, to connect himself with its center, to be drowned in the mystery of life.
No, consciousness is a prerequisite for gaining wisdom. And they had a desire for wisdom, and God would have given it to them, had they obeyed. When they ate the forbidden fruit, they lost wisdom.
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The story does not say it, but the story is not complete. I say to you, they were rushing immediately, because it is absolutely logical: after eating the fruit of knowledge they were rushing towards the tree of life. And that's why it was so easy for God to catch hold of them; otherwise, in the Garden of Eden there were so many millions of trees, where would He have found them? It would have taken eternity to search: rather than man searching for God, God would have been still searching for man, for where he is.
Where does it say in the bible "after eating the fruit of knowledge they were rushing towards the tree of life". They had full access to the tree of life until they sinned.
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otherwise, in the Garden of Eden there were so many millions of trees, where would He have found them? It would have taken eternity to search: rather than man searching for God, God would have been still searching for man, for where he is
This is stupid. An eternal all knowing God who created the whole universe can't find Adam and Eve because they're hiding in the trees? I guess if we follow on that logic, he wouldn't have been able to find the tree of life either, it was hiding amoungst millions of trees. And how do you know there were millions of trees?
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But I know how things would have happened — they are not told in the story. God, coming to know that they have eaten the fruit of knowledge, must have rushed immediately to the tree of life and waited there knowing that they must be coming. It is such simple logic, no Aristotle is needed.
Is this a joke?
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And certainly they were caught there. Both were rushing, naked, rejoicing, because for the first time their eyes were open. For the first time they were human beings; before this they were only animals amongst other animals...and God threw them out of the Garden of Eden. Since then, man has been longing for life, more life.
You are absolutely wrong. If Adam and eve had no human consciousness and ability for discernment then why is it that Eve Quote:
saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat
They were created in the likeness of God. I hope you understand this much.
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But the priests who represent the God that has driven you out of the Garden of Eden — the popes, the imams, the shankaracharyas, the rabbis, they all represent the same guy.
Just because most people are deceitful and blind does not mean all of them are.
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Strangely enough, nobody says that that guy was your first enemy. On the contrary, they say it was the poor serpent who convinced Eve, "You are being foolish by not eating from the tree of knowledge. God is jealous; He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of knowledge you will become wise. And He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of life you will be just like God. Then who is going to worship Him? He is jealous, afraid — that's why He has prevented you."
So God is jealous, that's why he put the tree there and made it perfectly accesible to Adam and eve? And you forgot to mention to the fact that the serpent completely lied to them by telling them that they would not die, why God clearly said they would. The serpent tricked them and hid the truth of the judgement he knew would come upon them if they disobeyed God.
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This serpent was humanity's first friend — but he is condemned. The friend is called the devil, and the enemy is called God. Strange are the ways of the human mind! You should thank the serpent! It is just because of the serpent that you have become what you have become. It is because of disobedience to God that you have attained a certain dignity, a pride of being human, a certain integrity, a certain individuality.
You mean foolish arrogance, pride of life, and blindness to the light and truth of a loving God. Everything we have comes from God. There is nothing we can say we have made it for ourselves, it's all of our own, it never came from God. If we have individuality and special characteristics, it is because we receive it as a blessing from God.
You only conform to unconformity of the only Truth there is.
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So instead of thanking God, change the phrase. Rather than saying, "Thank God!" say, "Thank the serpent!" It is just due to his compassion; otherwise why should he have bothered about you? He must have been a very compassionate fellow.
So the serpent knows better than All-Wise Eternal Love who created him?
Your ignorance and foolishness baffles me. This is the result of turning so far towards darkness. All logic, all knowledge, apart from the Truth, is corrupt and will fail. The devil is a liar, and the father of it. When he speaks, he speaks of his own. His knowledge is a void of darkness.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/08/07 01:24 AM)
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a_guy_named_ai
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Quote:
If we're going to take the scripture literally and at face value, I've a few more questions:
Why would God create a "tree of knowledge" and a "tree of life" in the first place? Why would he make them accessible to those who should never consume of them?
He made the tree of life (at least one reason why) because it was a convenient way to cut them off from immortality if they sinned.
He put the tree of knowledge of good and evil where he did to test them.
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Did God create the Serpent?
Not as he was in the garden. God created him perfect, but he fell because of his own selfish desires.
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Why didn't God prevent Eve from eating the fruit? Or Adam, once she had fallen?
to test them
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It's a bit like locking two toddlers in a room with candy and watching them on a camera from the next room. You can say, "Hey, don't eat that candy," but there's a pretty good chance on of them is going to do it anyway. You should be aware of what's going on in the room, unless you aren't watching the camera. And if someone else entered the room without my permission and tried to give the toddler the forbidden candy, you better believe I'd smite his lalala. 
Adam and eve wern't toddlers. They were fully adult. And God had displayed more than enough proof to prove his faithfulness and wisdom. If God said, don't eat that fruit, then it's a good idea not to eat that fruit.
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But, if I had a friend go into the room and said "Hey buddy, see if those kids will eat the candy," that's another story entirely. The kids might know that they're supposed to do what I tell them, but that doesn't mean they can't be mislead. The story, as the scripture tells it, is essentially allowing or being unaware of the third person in the room, allowing or being unaware that the third person is lying to the kids, allowing or being unaware of the kids eating the candy, and then kicking all three out of my house. 
Adam and Eve knew their was a contradiction from what God had told them to do and what the devil had told them. They were led astray by thier own desires, once enticed by the devil. They were fully capable of making a better choice, and they did not.
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Now, I'm pretty sure the whole thing is metaphor and not meant to be taken literally. The message here is that only God is infallible (ironic since he allowed those created in his image to fall), and that man is prone to mistakes. As such, while living he will never attain paradise. The entirety of the rest of the scriptures is meant to tell man how to best act while living so as to enjoy life and get into paradise on the other side.
Well, you're wrong. It is literal, and every single verse in the new testament and old that refers to it refers to it as literal. There is nothing that you can possibly go on to conclude that it is not literal, except your own false presupposition. If it is not literal, then it is a blatant lie.
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Put it this way- unless you believe in demons and devils, over history Man has created several religions (from the standpoint of jonathon and others who hold a belief in one particular religion). Unless you've spoken directly with the creator, what proof do you have that a few thousand years ago, someone didn't sit down and write yours?
How about spiritual recognition of his Eternal Divine nature? Not to mention the physical universe which demands his existence.
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...that's what I thought.
You thought too soon.
Edited by jonathan_206 (10/08/07 01:32 AM)
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7496085 - 10/08/07 01:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Man these answers just has my mind all messed up in what I believed.
What do you mean?
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7497890 - 10/08/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why would God feel the need to test his own creations? If he wished to create something that would not sin, surely he could have done so? Or, do you suppose he created Man with the ability to sin, just to see if he would? That wouldn't be necessary if God was confident in his own abilities.
If the Serpent was created in a Perfect form, what caused the Serpent to develop selfish desires? Why would God create a creature with the capacity for selfishness? Why would he allow one of his own to fall, and take two more with it?
You refer to the Serpent as the "devil". Did God create the Devil? If not, did the devil manifest itself? Or, did the Serpent become the devil when it developed its "selfish desires", and if that's the case, why didn't God do anything to prevent that?
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Icelander
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Why would God feel the need to test his own creations? If he wished to create something that would not sin, surely he could have done so? Or, do you suppose he created Man with the ability to sin, just to see if he would? That wouldn't be necessary if God was confident in his own abilities.
Here's the reason that I believe. It's the same reason a little kid likes to play with and torture insects and pets and each other. You see, this so called God is created in the image of his creators and so has all of their petty neurotic, sadistic, paranoid, etc, complexes. And also of course the desire to love.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Icelander]
#7497925 - 10/08/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you mean to imply that God himself has a creator or creators? I don't think that'll sit too well with Jonathan. And who created the Creator's Creators?
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Icelander
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We are the creators of God. In our own flawed image. I'm not worried about it not sitting too well with Jonathan. He's on his own and a big boy.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/08/07 04:11 PM)
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onlynow
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7498429 - 10/08/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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and that is your interpretation
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onlynow
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: onlynow]
#7498508 - 10/08/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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In Christianity shame is the original sin. You have heard the story of what happened to Adam and Eve. At which moment did the sin happen? It has been a continuous search to find in exactly what moment the sin happened. They were forbidden to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but they were tempted. It is natural: whenever anything is forbidden, temptation comes -- this is how mind behaves. But mind has another trick also: it tempts you, but it always makes somebody else responsible. Whenever something is forbidden the mind becomes interested, it becomes an invitation. The mind wants to know, to poke its nose in, inquire.
Adam and Eve were tempted by themselves, nobody else was there. But the story says the devil, Satan, tempted them. This is a trick of the mind to throw the responsibility on someone else. And this 'devil' is nothing but a scapegoat, this 'devil' is nothing but a trick of the mind to throw all responsibilities. You are tempted, but the 'devil' is the tempter so you are not responsible. He has persuaded you, he seduced you, so he is the sinner not you. But the temptation came from the forbiddance, and this was a trick of the mind. The story is beautiful:
God said, "Don't eat the fruit from this tree!" If they were trusting, then they would have avoided the tree. But they were not trusting. They said: "Why? Why does God forbid us this tree, and this tree is the tree of knowledge?" The mind must have said to them, "If you eat, you will become like gods because you will be knowers. And he is forbidding you because he is jealous. He is forbidding you because he would not like you to become like gods. You will be knowers, then nothing will be hidden from you." But the story says the devil tempted them and said, "He has forbidden it because he is jealous and afraid." This was just a situation for Adam and Eve to prove whether they had trust or not -- nothing else.
But the mind persuaded them -- mind is the 'devil'. The devil came in the shape of a snake, and the snake is the oldest symbol of cunningness -- mind is the snake, the most cunning thing. Adam and Eve both made the devil responsible, threw the responsibility on the devil -- and Adam also threw the responsibility on Eve. Man has always said that woman is the tempter, so men have always been condemning women. In all the scriptures of the world the woman is the tempter: she leads you into temptation, she seduces you, and she is the cause of all trouble. So your so-called saints go on condemning women.
This is the way of the mind:
Eve says, "The devil"; Adam says, "Eve"; and if you ask the devil, if you get him somewhere, he will say, "God -- because why should he forbid in the first place? That created the whole trouble. Otherwise, the garden of Eden was so big and there were millions of trees, that by themselves Adam and Eve would never have come upon the tree of knowledge. 'Forbidden!' They knew this was the tree, and then the whole garden became uninteresting, their whole interest became focused -- it was God's fault!"
But the story is beautiful and has millions of dimensions around it; it can be interpreted in many, many ways -- that is the beauty of a parable. They took the fruit of the tree, they ate it, and immediately they became ashamed of their nakedness. Where did the sin happen? By disobeying God? If you ask the pope of the Vatican, he will say, "By disobeying God," because priests would like you to always obey, never disobey.
If you ask philosophers, not theologians, they will say: "By eating the fruit of knowledge." Because when you start thinking trouble arises. Life is innocent without thinking: children are innocent because they cannot think, trees look so beautiful because they cannot think. Man looks so ugly because his mind is always burdened and tense with worries and thoughts and dreams and reveries, and he is always burdened -- the whole grace is lost. So if you ask existentialist philosophers, they will say that it is because of the tree of knowledge.
But if you ask the psychologists, whose approach is deepest, they will say, "Because of shame." Because when you feel shame you have started to hate yourself, when you feel ashamed you have rejected yourself. But it came through knowledge. Children cannot feel ashamed; they move naked easily, there is no problem. You force them by and by to feel ashamed: "Don't be naked!" The more they become knowers, then the more they will hide themselves.
Jesus says: WHEN YOU TAKE OFF YOUR CLOTHING WITHOUT BEING ASHAMED. But what did Adam and Eve do? They put fig leaves around their sex organs, the first clothing invented -- the world started. How can you enter again into the garden of Eden? Throw away your fig leaves! -- that's what Jesus says. He says this is the way back to paradise. This is the way back: WHEN YOU TAKE OFF YOUR CLOTHING WITHOUT BEING ASHAMED. Because you can take off your clothing and remain ashamed, then deep down the clothing is there: you are hiding, you are not open. So nudity is not nakedness; you may be nude, but not naked.
Nakedness has a deeper dimension: it means no shame, no feeling of being ashamed; it means accepting your body in its totality as it is. No condemnation in the mind, no division in the body -- a simple acceptance, then it is nakedness. Mahavira is not nude, he is not a member of a nudist club; he is naked, he is naked like a child. In a nudist club you are not naked. Even your nudity is calculated, it is manipulation from the mind. You are revolting, you are rebellious, you are going against the society -- because the society believes in clothes, you are throwing the clothes. But it is a reaction so you are not innocent, innocent like a child.
Says Jesus:
AND TAKE YOUR CLOTHES AND PUT THEM UNDER YOUR FEET AS THE LITTLE CHILDREN AND TREAD ON THEM -- THEN SHALL YOU BEHOLD THE SON OF THE LIVING ONE, AND YOU SHALL NOT FEAR.
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Icelander]
#7499087 - 10/08/07 07:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Icelander- I agree with your statement, that God is created in Man's image, and not the other way around. The rest of the post was meant to be ironic.
And Jonathan, if you're still reading this thread, please don't misinterpret. I find your conviction in faith a most admirable trait. You are obviously equipped with the backbone required to stand up for what you believe is right. My motivation for continuing to question your responses is to see how far the explanations go.
I guess my ultimate question would be this: Why did God allow Man to fall?
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leery11
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why aren't we discussing leery11:4:22- don't tell me you don't know what that says?
   
Get out your pamphlets please and read along with me.......
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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BlueCoyote
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"I guess my ultimate question would be this: Why did God allow Man to fall? " To let him rise again ?
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fivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7502713 - 10/09/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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jonathan_206 said:
Quote:
Taken and slightly modified from chapter 2 of "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" By Jerome Zanchius. -
"Adam fell in consequence of the Divine decree, let us consider:
God was either willing that Adam should fall, or unwilling, or indifferent about it.
If God was unwilling that Adam should transgress, how came it to pass that he did? Is man stronger and is Satan wiser than He that made them? Surely no. Again, could not God, had it so pleased Him, have hindered the tempter's access to paradise? or have created man, as He did the elect angels, with a will invariably determined to good only and incapable of being biassed to evil? or, at least, have made the grace and strength, with which He endued Adam, actually effectual to the resisting of all solicitations to sin?
Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it, for the decree of God is nothing else but the seal and ratification of His Will. He does nothing but what He decreed, and He decreed nothing which He did not will, and both will and decree are absolutely eternal, though the execution of both be in time.
The only way to evade the force of this reasoning is to say that "God was indifferent and unconcerned whether man stood or fell." But in what a shameful, unworthy light does this represent the Deity! Is it possible for us to imagine that God could be an idle, careless spectator of one of the most important events that ever came to pass? Are not "the very hairs of our head all numbered"? or does "a sparrow fall to the ground without our heaveuly Father"? If, then, things the most trivial and worthless are subject to the appointment of His decree and the control of His providence, how much more is man, the masterpiece of this lower creation? and above all that man Adam, who when recent from his Maker's hands was the living image of God Himself, and very little inferior to angels! and on whose perseverance was suspended the welfare not of himself only, but likewise that of the whole world.
But, so far was God from being indifferent in this matter, that there is nothing whatever about which He is so, for He worketh all things, without exception," after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11), consequently, if He positively wills whatever is done, He cannot be indifferent with regard to anything. On the whole, if God was not unwilling that Adam should fall, He must have been willing that he should, since between God's willing and unwilling there is no medium. And is it not highly rational as well as Scriptural, nay, is it not absolutely necessary to suppose that the fall was not contrary to the will and determination of God? since, if it was, His will (which the apostle represents as being irresistible, Rom. 9:19) was apparently frustrated and His determination rendered of worse than none effect. And how dishonourable to, how inconsistent with, and how notoriously subversive of the dignity of God such a blasphemous supposition would be, and how irreconcileable with every one of His allowed attributes is very easy to observe."
As far as free will - man since the Fall has lost "free will". Man only acts according to his nature, which since the Fall is wicked. Man is "free" to act only within the confines of his inherent nature. But since the inherent nature is corrupt, man "freely" acts wickedly. This is spiritual bondage and man is not free in a spiritual sense.
This is some of the most rediculous nonsense I have ever heard in my life. Is this what you believe?? Where does the bible say man has no free will? Tell me! You can't, it's only in your own simple minded self imposed interpretation. You rule out free will before you even begin. You ignore the fact that the placement of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden was to test Adam and Eve. That's why God did it. But this requires Adam and Eve to have free will.
I suppose you have no free will either eh? Even though you use it all the time. You are a heretic among heretics.
I said fallen man has no free will. Adam and Eve pre-fall are the only ones who had a neutral will. Since the Fall all are bound in sin and spiritually dead. This is why a person must be born again, and given a new heart, because the old heart is entirely inclined to its nature, which is wickedness. Wickedness in the spiritual realm makes unregenerate man unable to understand spiritual truth, and is blind to this fact.
Man after the Fall is not the same as the original created parents. God created man good. We know man after the Fall man is not good. This is a drastic change.
The miracle of the new birth, the implantation of the new nature, the death of the old man, all are gifts from above to God's people, hell deserving sinners, who are given everything even though they deserve nothing. Praise to the glory of God's grace which has been wrought through the blood of Jesus to all those believing!
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7502756 - 10/09/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: I said fallen man has no free will. Adam and Eve pre-fall are the only ones who had a neutral will. Since the Fall all are bound in sin and spiritually dead. This is why a person must be born again, and given a new heart, because the old heart is entirely inclined to its nature, which is wickedness. Wickedness in the spiritual realm makes unregenerate man unable to understand spiritual truth, and is blind to this fact.
Just some questions.... How do people that have a mental "handicap" like Autism or an Idiot Savant fit into this mold....? They are (as I understand) generally peaceful people, and some may be unable to grok such concepts as a God and/or religion.... They may go thru the motions of being reborn (by playing follow the leader), but may never truly understand the meaning of accepting God into their hearts....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7502772 - 10/09/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Then ultimately comes the question, why would God create a being without the capacity to work it's way back into God's good graces....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7502801 - 10/09/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: Then ultimately comes the question, why would God create a being without the capacity to work it's way back into God's good graces....?
>^;;^<
The question you ask has a hidden assumption. That someone is able to do something that can get them back in God's good graces. I reject this hidden assumption. Man can NOTHING to get himself back into God's good graces. Man is at the mercy of God entirely.
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Muufokfok
aka BoxyBrown


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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7502806 - 10/09/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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silly of you people to argue over a fairy tale
-------------------- "I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."
  As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples" ~Alan Watts~
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Drink_Punk_Soda
Now with ExtraVaganza!?

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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7502812 - 10/09/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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<Devil's Advocate> That one is easy- so that they may serve as an example to the rest of His Kingdom what happens when one disobeys a direct order from God. Here's a theory, what if God created Man for the sole purpose of falling? No creature could ever sin if he didn't will it so. If Man's purpose was to sin, and thus to suffer, surely he loves Man as much as any other of his creations. Man is fulfilling his destiny by continuing to experience sorrow, but he was not created without the capacity for love and joy. When his life is concluded he may enter Heaven, for he has _chosen_ to do good, though endowed with the tendency to do evil. </Devil's Advocate>
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fivepointer
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Quote:
Drink_Punk_Soda said: <Devil's Advocate> That one is easy- so that they may serve as an example to the rest of His Kingdom what happens when one disobeys a direct order from God. Here's a theory, what if God created Man for the sole purpose of falling? No creature could ever sin if he didn't will it so. If Man's purpose was to sin, and thus to suffer, surely he loves Man as much as any other of his creations. Man is fulfilling his destiny by continuing to experience sorrow, but he was not created without the capacity for love and joy. When his life is concluded he may enter Heaven, for he has _chosen_ to do good, though endowed with the tendency to do evil. </Devil's Advocate>
You have an assumption in this statement. You assume that man is able to do good and possibly work himself into heaven. However this is impossible. Man is not brought into heaven because he does good, if he is brought in it is only because God has shown mercy, no other reason.
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Drink_Punk_Soda
Now with ExtraVaganza!?

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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7502871 - 10/09/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You misunderstand- you and I are saying precisely the same thing. If Man's purpose was to sin, and his nature is wicked, then he would never be allowed into Heaven unless God willed it, no? But God would not allow a wicked man into Heaven. Therefore, since the Scripture (again, if taken literally) provides the rules for (man) to get into Heaven, God must take mercy on SOME men, allowing them to do things which are not wicked, thus gaining entry into heaven by his will.
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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7502880 - 10/09/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: The question you ask has a hidden assumption. That someone is able to do something that can get them back in God's good graces. I reject this hidden assumption. Man can NOTHING to get himself back into God's good graces. Man is at the mercy of God entirely.
This doesn't negate the fact that some people are born without ever having the capacity to even try....  Which to me, seems contradictory....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7504843 - 10/10/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Praise to the glory of God's grace which has been wrought through the blood of Jesus to all those believing!

And hellfire for all the rest. God hates you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7505058 - 10/10/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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there's no such thing as something God "wants."
He doesn't want, he takes action.
p.s. just by mentioning the tree, he already set that path in motion.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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blewmeanie




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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7505191 - 10/10/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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.:.
Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 12:37 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: blewmeanie]
#7505324 - 10/10/07 01:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yep, Pair a balls = Parables, and that's why there are no women anymore.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fivepointer
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Quote:
Drink_Punk_Soda said: You misunderstand- you and I are saying precisely the same thing. If Man's purpose was to sin, and his nature is wicked, then he would never be allowed into Heaven unless God willed it, no? But God would not allow a wicked man into Heaven. Therefore, since the Scripture (again, if taken literally) provides the rules for (man) to get into Heaven, God must take mercy on SOME men, allowing them to do things which are not wicked, thus gaining entry into heaven by his will.
Actually we are not saying the same thing at all. You are saying God makes rules and enables some men to carry out the rules and thereby obtain justification. I am saying NOTHING a man does can obtain justification for himself. While it is true that believers are saved, the act of believing, in itself, contains no meritorious value that God needs to work through in order to justify. Believing itself is a gift, and that gift was settled in eternity past, that some would be justified, as they are ordained to this end.
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fivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7506324 - 10/10/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
fivepointer said: The question you ask has a hidden assumption. That someone is able to do something that can get them back in God's good graces. I reject this hidden assumption. Man can NOTHING to get himself back into God's good graces. Man is at the mercy of God entirely.
This doesn't negate the fact that some people are born without ever having the capacity to even try....  Which to me, seems contradictory....
>^;;^<
You have a notion that all men should be given a "fair chance" and that fact that reality shows this not to be the case, it seems unfair in your mind how God could be like this. However no one deserves anything, not even a "fair chance". If not a single soul were saved no injustice would be committed. Fallen angels, as far as we can tell from scripture, have no chance of redemption. The reason why you think like this is because you have never been convicted that you are a hell deserving sinner and therefore can not see the value of justice.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7506345 - 10/10/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The reason why you think like this is because you have never been convicted that you are a hell deserving sinner and therefore can not see the value of justice.
I guess this pretty much sums up the Christian doctrine.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7506391 - 10/10/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: You have a notion that all men should be given a "fair chance" and that fact that reality shows this not to be the case, it seems unfair in your mind how God could be like this. However no one deserves anything, not even a "fair chance". If not a single soul were saved no injustice would be committed. Fallen angels, as far as we can tell from scripture, have no chance of redemption. The reason why you think like this is because you have never been convicted that you are a hell deserving sinner and therefore can not see the value of justice.
Let me clear up my wording/meaning.... I have the notion that all of man is instructed/expected/hopeful to build a relationship with God - as I understand the bits and pieces from the Bible.... We as man are undeserving of ANYTHING - I fully understand that part - we are promised nothing.... But we are supposed to "try" by living by the commandments, and building that relationship with God, and nurturing that relationship....
The contradiction I think I am seeing, is that there are expectations of us all thru the eyes of God, and yet he has created people that are specifically not able to even try to live by those expectations.....
That is what I mean in my questions presented here....  It doesn't matter what I think to be fair, it is just something I don't understand....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7506412 - 10/10/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just something? 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: blewmeanie]
#7506439 - 10/10/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said: Its a parable except god was the fruit, "man" was both Eve and Adam, and our emerging consciousness was the snake. So says ME.
couldn't have said it better... otherwise I would have 
+   
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7507336 - 10/10/07 10:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513910 - 10/13/07 10:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Learing good and evil was the purpose of the fruit. "Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy". Letting adam and eve choose to eat the fruit was like letting them choose to know happyness alongside misery. You cannot know the sweet without the bitter.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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Groomies
Ghost



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513926 - 10/13/07 10:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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God wanted eve to suck his dick.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Walter1496211]
#7513937 - 10/13/07 10:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes but good and evil are merely interpretations of our minds, and they differ from individual to individual. Our minds also change so what we once found as evil might turn into good and vice versa. Or we can just simply realize that these notions are unnecessary if we want to live a happy life and let go of what's keeping us back and in fear.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Groomies]
#7513939 - 10/13/07 10:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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How old are you like 4 years old? (Groomie) and as far as a mature response I would agree that good and evil are a state of mind I cannot argue that but somehow there must be a bound where we know what is right as far as destruction and love I want to be on the love side. And so I walk that path
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
Edited by Walter1496211 (10/13/07 10:45 PM)
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backfromthedead
Activated


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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7513963 - 10/13/07 10:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dude?? This is what the Gnostic understanding is about. Ask Markos. Snakes are wisdom. Maybe...?? That coiled up ready to strike shit is real. In these times ever body is looking for a bite. Can you swallow it whole?? Let it digest?? Unhinge your jaw?? Ultimately the story goes something like... 'your eyes will be opened... Blah Blah Blah.' This is what makes it real.
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backfromthedead
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7513966 - 10/13/07 10:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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With his feet up. What a bastard.
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Walter1496211
Window Washer



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My love is for serving my neighbor so I choose my example don't hate me for that your choice makes me happy I'm with you.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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backfromthedead
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Walter1496211]
#7513984 - 10/13/07 10:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I ran. Now its in my face.
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