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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #7501133 - 10/09/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"I guess my ultimate question would be this: Why did God allow Man to fall? "
To let him rise again ?
:shrug:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7502713 - 10/09/07 07:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

Taken and slightly modified from chapter 2 of "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" By Jerome Zanchius. -

"Adam fell in consequence of the Divine decree, let us consider:

God was either willing that Adam should fall, or unwilling, or indifferent about it.

If God was unwilling that Adam should transgress, how came it to pass that he did? Is man stronger and is Satan wiser than He that made them? Surely no. Again, could not God, had it so pleased Him, have hindered the tempter's access to paradise? or have created man, as He did the elect angels, with a will invariably determined to good only and incapable of being biassed to evil? or, at least, have made the grace and strength, with which He endued Adam, actually effectual to the resisting of all solicitations to sin?

Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it, for the decree of God is nothing else but the seal and ratification of His Will. He does nothing but what He decreed, and He decreed nothing which He did not will, and both will and decree are absolutely eternal, though the execution of both be in time.

The only way to evade the force of this reasoning is to say that "God was indifferent and unconcerned whether man stood or fell." But in what a shameful, unworthy light does this represent the Deity! Is it possible for us to imagine that God could be an idle, careless spectator of one of the most important events that ever came to pass? Are not "the very hairs of our head all numbered"? or does "a sparrow fall to the ground without our heaveuly Father"? If, then, things the most trivial and worthless are subject to the appointment of His decree and the control of His providence, how much more is man, the masterpiece of this lower creation? and above all that man Adam, who when recent from his Maker's hands was the living image of God Himself, and very little inferior to angels! and on whose perseverance was suspended the welfare not of himself only, but likewise that of the whole world.

But, so far was God from being indifferent in this matter, that there is nothing whatever about which He is so, for He worketh all things, without exception," after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11), consequently, if He positively wills whatever is done, He cannot be indifferent with regard to anything. On the whole, if God was not unwilling that Adam should fall, He must have been willing that he should, since between God's willing and unwilling there is no medium. And is it not highly rational as well as Scriptural, nay, is it not absolutely necessary to suppose that the fall was not contrary to the will and determination of God? since, if it was, His will (which the apostle represents as being irresistible, Rom. 9:19) was apparently frustrated and His determination rendered of worse than none effect. And how dishonourable to, how inconsistent with, and how notoriously subversive of the dignity of God such a blasphemous supposition would be, and how irreconcileable with every one of His allowed attributes is very easy to observe."


As far as free will - man since the Fall has lost "free will". Man only acts according to his nature, which since the Fall is wicked. Man is "free" to act only within the confines of his inherent nature. But since the inherent nature is corrupt, man "freely" acts wickedly. This is spiritual bondage and man is not free in a spiritual sense.




This is some of the most rediculous nonsense I have ever heard in my life. Is this what you believe?? Where does the bible say man has no free will? Tell me! You can't, it's only in your own simple minded self imposed interpretation. You rule out free will before you even begin. You ignore the fact that the placement of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden was to test Adam and Eve. That's why God did it. But this requires Adam and Eve to have free will.

I suppose you have no free will either eh? Even though you use it all the time. You are a heretic among heretics.



I said fallen man has no free will. Adam and Eve pre-fall are the only ones who had a neutral will. Since the Fall all are bound in sin and spiritually dead. This is why a person must be born again, and given a new heart, because the old heart is entirely inclined to its nature, which is wickedness. Wickedness in the spiritual realm makes unregenerate man unable to understand spiritual truth, and is blind to this fact.

Man after the Fall is not the same as the original created parents. God created man good. We know man after the Fall man is not good. This is a drastic change.

The miracle of the new birth, the implantation of the new nature, the death of the old man, all are gifts from above to God's people, hell deserving sinners, who are given everything even though they deserve nothing. Praise to the glory of God's grace which has been wrought through the blood of Jesus to all those believing!


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7502756 - 10/09/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I said fallen man has no free will. Adam and Eve pre-fall are the only ones who had a neutral will. Since the Fall all are bound in sin and spiritually dead. This is why a person must be born again, and given a new heart, because the old heart is entirely inclined to its nature, which is wickedness. Wickedness in the spiritual realm makes unregenerate man unable to understand spiritual truth, and is blind to this fact.




Just some questions....
How do people that have a mental "handicap" like Autism or an Idiot Savant fit into this mold....?
They are (as I understand) generally peaceful people, and some may be unable to grok such concepts as a God and/or religion....
They may go thru the motions of being reborn (by playing follow the leader), but may never truly understand the meaning of accepting God into their hearts....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7502772 - 10/09/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Then ultimately comes the question, why would God create a being without the capacity to work it's way back into God's good graces....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7502801 - 10/09/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Then ultimately comes the question, why would God create a being without the capacity to work it's way back into God's good graces....?


>^;;^<



The question you ask has a hidden assumption. That someone is able to do something that can get them back in God's good graces. I reject this hidden assumption. Man can NOTHING to get himself back into God's good graces. Man is at the mercy of God entirely.


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OfflineMuufokfok
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7502806 - 10/09/07 07:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

silly of you people to argue over a fairy tale


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7502812 - 10/09/07 07:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

<Devil's Advocate>
That one is easy- so that they may serve as an example to the rest of His Kingdom what happens when one disobeys a direct order from God. Here's a theory, what if God created Man for the sole purpose of falling? No creature could ever sin if he didn't will it so. If Man's purpose was to sin, and thus to suffer, surely he loves Man as much as any other of his creations. Man is fulfilling his destiny by continuing to experience sorrow, but he was not created without the capacity for love and joy. When his life is concluded he may enter Heaven, for he has _chosen_ to do good, though endowed with the tendency to do evil.
</Devil's Advocate>


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #7502831 - 10/09/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Drink_Punk_Soda said:
<Devil's Advocate>
That one is easy- so that they may serve as an example to the rest of His Kingdom what happens when one disobeys a direct order from God. Here's a theory, what if God created Man for the sole purpose of falling? No creature could ever sin if he didn't will it so. If Man's purpose was to sin, and thus to suffer, surely he loves Man as much as any other of his creations. Man is fulfilling his destiny by continuing to experience sorrow, but he was not created without the capacity for love and joy. When his life is concluded he may enter Heaven, for he has _chosen_ to do good, though endowed with the tendency to do evil.
</Devil's Advocate>



You have an assumption in this statement. You assume that man is able to do good and possibly work himself into heaven. However this is impossible. Man is not brought into heaven because he does good, if he is brought in it is only because God has shown mercy, no other reason.


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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7502871 - 10/09/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You misunderstand- you and I are saying precisely the same thing. If Man's purpose was to sin, and his nature is wicked, then he would never be allowed into Heaven unless God willed it, no? But God would not allow a wicked man into Heaven. Therefore, since the Scripture (again, if taken literally) provides the rules for (man) to get into Heaven, God must take mercy on SOME men, allowing them to do things which are not wicked, thus gaining entry into heaven by his will.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7502880 - 10/09/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
The question you ask has a hidden assumption.  That someone is able to do something that can get them back in God's good graces.  I reject this hidden assumption.  Man can NOTHING to get himself back into God's good graces.  Man is at the mercy of God entirely.




This doesn't negate the fact that some people are born without ever having the capacity to even try....    :shrug:
Which to me, seems contradictory....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7504843 - 10/10/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Praise to the glory of God's grace which has been wrought through the blood of Jesus to all those believing!
:thumbup:

And hellfire :hellfire: for all the rest. God hates you.:sun:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505058 - 10/10/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

there's no such thing as something God "wants."

He doesn't want, he takes action.

p.s. just by mentioning the tree, he already set that path in motion.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7505191 - 10/10/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

.:.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code


Edited by blewmeanie (01/23/10 12:37 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #7505324 - 10/10/07 01:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yep, Pair a balls = Parables, and that's why there are no women anymore.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #7506295 - 10/10/07 05:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Drink_Punk_Soda said:
You misunderstand- you and I are saying precisely the same thing. If Man's purpose was to sin, and his nature is wicked, then he would never be allowed into Heaven unless God willed it, no? But God would not allow a wicked man into Heaven. Therefore, since the Scripture (again, if taken literally) provides the rules for (man) to get into Heaven, God must take mercy on SOME men, allowing them to do things which are not wicked, thus gaining entry into heaven by his will.



Actually we are not saying the same thing at all. You are saying God makes rules and enables some men to carry out the rules and thereby obtain justification. I am saying NOTHING a man does can obtain justification for himself. While it is true that believers are saved, the act of believing, in itself, contains no meritorious value that God needs to work through in order to justify. Believing itself is a gift, and that gift was settled in eternity past, that some would be justified, as they are ordained to this end.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7506324 - 10/10/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
The question you ask has a hidden assumption.  That someone is able to do something that can get them back in God's good graces.  I reject this hidden assumption.  Man can NOTHING to get himself back into God's good graces.  Man is at the mercy of God entirely.




This doesn't negate the fact that some people are born without ever having the capacity to even try....    :shrug:
Which to me, seems contradictory....


>^;;^<



You have a notion that all men should be given a "fair chance" and that fact that reality shows this not to be the case, it seems unfair in your mind how God could be like this.  However no one deserves anything, not even a "fair chance".  If not a single soul were saved no injustice would be committed.  Fallen angels, as far as we can tell from scripture, have no chance of redemption.  The reason why you think like this is because you have never been convicted that you are a hell deserving sinner and therefore can not see the value of justice.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7506345 - 10/10/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The reason why you think like this is because you have never been convicted that you are a hell deserving sinner and therefore can not see the value of justice.




I guess this pretty much sums up the Christian doctrine.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7506391 - 10/10/07 05:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
You have a notion that all men should be given a "fair chance" and that fact that reality shows this not to be the case, it seems unfair in your mind how God could be like this.  However no one deserves anything, not even a "fair chance".  If not a single soul were saved no injustice would be committed.  Fallen angels, as far as we can tell from scripture, have no chance of redemption.  The reason why you think like this is because you have never been convicted that you are a hell deserving sinner and therefore can not see the value of justice.




Let me clear up my wording/meaning....
I have the notion that all of man is instructed/expected/hopeful to build a relationship with God - as I understand the bits and pieces from the Bible....
We as man are undeserving of ANYTHING - I fully understand that part - we are promised nothing....
But we are supposed to "try" by living by the commandments, and building that relationship with God, and nurturing that relationship....

The contradiction I think I am seeing, is that there are expectations of us all thru the eyes of God,
and yet he has created people that are specifically not able to even try to live by those expectations.....

That is what I mean in my questions presented here....    :smile:
It doesn't matter what I think to be fair, it is just something I don't understand....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7506412 - 10/10/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Just something? :what:

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #7506439 - 10/10/07 05:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Its a parable except god was the fruit, "man" was both Eve and Adam, and our emerging consciousness was the snake. So says ME.




couldn't have said it better... otherwise I would have :grin:

+:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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