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AIONsufferer
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Did God want Eve to eat the fruit?
#7492071 - 10/06/07 05:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ok, for us to know happy from sad, well from sick, starving from full etc etc don't you think that God wanted Eve to eat the fruit so that we would have free will?
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Icelander
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492118 - 10/06/07 05:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think someone wants to believe that fairy tales are real.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492227 - 10/06/07 06:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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2:16. And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: Praecepitque ei dicens ex omni ligno paradisi comede
2:17. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death. De ligno autem scientiae boni et mali ne comedas in quocumque enim die comederis ex eo morte morieris
I think that's pretty straightforward, no?
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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...
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onlynow
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i ate the fruit, became atomized, and ever since then ive been searching for this so called "unification"
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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AlteredAgain
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492248 - 10/06/07 06:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i am of the view that free will is not just handed to us, but is something we must grow into through self-cultivation and discipline.
a human being running their life on automated habit and conditioning can distinguish happy from sad and any other duality just as well as the liberated person.
i don't believe this story holds up.
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AlteredAgain]
#7492419 - 10/06/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Adam and Eve had free will. They had the knowledge enough to choose wrong, and enough to choose right. It wasn't the tree of free will, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That means having in your mind the recognition of the presence of not only good, but evil also. Understandably, this is quite a mental and spiritual load on a person. It is a temptation that requires a lot more trouble and discernment. There is no reason for Adam and Eve to necessarily have all of this knowledge. If they had trusted in God, then he would have watched over them and he would have worried about it himself.
Before Adam and Even sinned, all they knew was the graciousness and goodness of the Lord. They knew what not to do, but they did not fully understand the consequences, the Spiritual nature of sin, and the consequence of sin, death. Unfortunately, when they came to knowledge of sin, it was in the most unfortunate manner.
There is no need for us to understand everything, and if you think you must fully understand these things to have freedom of thought or to be wise, then you will never be free.
Even now, we do not have unlimited free will, but we choose according to the ability of our minds, which is predetermined according to the infinite wisdom and divine nature of God.
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Drink_Punk_Soda
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7492489 - 10/06/07 07:59 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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A literal interpretation would lead to that conclusion, yes. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good or evil, but were free to do as they were able. They could commit evil acts and not realize it. Indeed, by eating the fruit they committed an act of evil, and were made well aware of that fact once the deed was done. It might be said that knowledge of good and evil infringes on one's ability to exercise free will- if you have been indoctrinated with certain morals, religious or otherwise, you will be unwilling or unable to do certain things. One who follows the word of God as delivered in this story would be unwilling or unable to kill another person, not because he is physically incapable of doing so, nor because he is mentally incapable of figuring out how, but because he is aware that the act of murder is an evil deed, and is aware of the consequences prescribed by his chosen (or more likely, born-into) religion.
But to tie all this to the OP's question, I don't believe that these events literally happened. They are stories meant to teach how a person should act, and why. As such, I don't believe that God wanted Eve to eat the apple. Experiencing rage or hate or lust or gluttony, etc, is not evil. The actions that lead to them can be, and how we react can be as well. I believe that is how man has always been, imbued with the capacity to do many things, but intelligent enough to learn what is inherently a good or bad decision.
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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7492563 - 10/06/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
AIONsufferer said: Ok, for us to know happy from sad, well from sick, starving from full etc etc don't you think that God wanted Eve to eat the fruit so that we would have free will?
I once read a gnostic writing that mentioned that God was really Satan and The Serpent was really God, and the author (Moses) had it backwards due to the treachery of this "God". Satan (posed as God) wanted to keep humanity imprisoned in the garden, with all this paradise to keep them from finding out what they really are. God (as the serpent) got them to eat from the tree and embark on the journey to self-realization.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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AIONsufferer
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
Quote:
AIONsufferer said: Ok, for us to know happy from sad, well from sick, starving from full etc etc don't you think that God wanted Eve to eat the fruit so that we would have free will?
I once read a gnostic writing that mentioned that God was really Satan and The Serpent was really God, and the author (Moses) had it backwards due to the treachery of this "God". Satan (posed as God) wanted to keep humanity imprisoned in the garden, with all this paradise to keep them from finding out what they really are. God (as the serpent) got them to eat from the tree and embark on the journey to self-realization.
Man I would of loved to read that
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a_guy_named_ai
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Quote:
I once read a gnostic writing that mentioned that God was really Satan and The Serpent was really God, and the author (Moses) had it backwards due to the treachery of this "God". Satan (posed as God) wanted to keep humanity imprisoned in the garden, with all this paradise to keep them from finding out what they really are. God (as the serpent) got them to eat from the tree and embark on the journey to self-realization.
This type of doctrine is derived from false babylonian mystery religion invented by Nimrod. A very small portion of the story:
Quote:
Nimrod and his wife Semiramis (the ancient "queen of heaven") were confirmed by their priests as gods and given homage as Marduk and Astarte.
There is one common element to Nimrod/Marduk in all his manifestations and that is the symbol of the snake/serpent/dragon. Nimrod took the dragon as his personal emblem, so that from him spring various dragon myths and their special association with apocalyptic events. Strikingly the only favorable accounts of dragons are found among the Hamitic peoples of the world (like Nimrod) including the Ethiopians, Hittites, Chinese, Japanese and American Indian.
The thread of serpent lore is evident in all of Marduk's guises regardless of nation, pantheon, or role. Poseidon was accompanied by creatures who were half man and half snake as well as by the sea serpent Leviathan (mentioned in Job). Aesculapeus/Chiron/Hermes were all associated with the cadduceus of entwined serpents. The story of Apollo and the python is well known as that of Hercules/Melkarth and the Hydra. The god Triton was half snake.
Quote:
The Hebrew historian Flavius Josephus, in the Antiquities of the Jews, depicts Nimrod as a tyrannical leader, demanding complete dominion and control over the people. As Josephus writes: "He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He gradually changed the government into tyranny - seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence upon his power." He likely rose to power by being a mighty protector over the land with his fearless gift of hunting and killing predatory wild animals that were a threat to human civilization, therefore receiving the title "mighty hunter before the Lord (Gen. 10:9). In post-biblical traditions, Nimrod, the inciter of "rebellion" who ruled Babel, was often identified as a giant, or Nephilim (Gen. 6:4), equivalent to the Anakim of Deuteronomy (Duet. 2:21-20;9:2). He was the chief instigator of the tower of Babel. This was a revolt which led to building a tower in the course of staging revenge against God, lest He flood the world again. The tower was a symbol of worship and protection and became well known by many as the ziggurat of Etemenanki, in honor of the Babylonian supreme god Marduk; a dominant central point of worship that spread out to many other nations that were to come (thirty-four of these staged towers have now been located in twenty-seven ancient cities of the Middle East - the greatest of them all was the one at Babylon).
The prophecy and revelation that had been handed down generation after generation to the sons and daughters of Adam was taken by Nimrod and Semiramis and twisted for his own purpose - to deify himself and his whore of a wife. He intended to make himself God and acsribe the prophcy of the messiah to himself and turn the people of the ancient east against God.
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7492925 - 10/06/07 10:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool, and it doesn't surprise me. Most of Christianity and Judaism is derived from Mesopotamian mythology. Two short examples that I know of being the flood story derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Moses and the Ten Commandments derived from Hammurabi receiving his Code from Shamash the sun-god.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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a_guy_named_ai
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No, you've got it backwards, the mesopotamian mythology is derived from God's truth which had been mutilated by people who had generation after generation fallen farther and farther away from God. There are flood stories all over the world, not just the one from the epic of gilgamesh.
Obviously one story had to be the source of all of these.
Take a look here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0329gilgamesh.asp
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fivepointer
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: AIONsufferer]
#7493265 - 10/07/07 12:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Taken and slightly modified from chapter 2 of "The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination" By Jerome Zanchius. -
"Adam fell in consequence of the Divine decree, let us consider:
God was either willing that Adam should fall, or unwilling, or indifferent about it.
If God was unwilling that Adam should transgress, how came it to pass that he did? Is man stronger and is Satan wiser than He that made them? Surely no. Again, could not God, had it so pleased Him, have hindered the tempter's access to paradise? or have created man, as He did the elect angels, with a will invariably determined to good only and incapable of being biassed to evil? or, at least, have made the grace and strength, with which He endued Adam, actually effectual to the resisting of all solicitations to sin?
Surely, if God had not willed the fall, He could, and no doubt would, have prevented it; but He did not prevent it: ergo He willed it. And if He willed it, He certainly decreed it, for the decree of God is nothing else but the seal and ratification of His Will. He does nothing but what He decreed, and He decreed nothing which He did not will, and both will and decree are absolutely eternal, though the execution of both be in time.
The only way to evade the force of this reasoning is to say that "God was indifferent and unconcerned whether man stood or fell." But in what a shameful, unworthy light does this represent the Deity! Is it possible for us to imagine that God could be an idle, careless spectator of one of the most important events that ever came to pass? Are not "the very hairs of our head all numbered"? or does "a sparrow fall to the ground without our heaveuly Father"? If, then, things the most trivial and worthless are subject to the appointment of His decree and the control of His providence, how much more is man, the masterpiece of this lower creation? and above all that man Adam, who when recent from his Maker's hands was the living image of God Himself, and very little inferior to angels! and on whose perseverance was suspended the welfare not of himself only, but likewise that of the whole world.
But, so far was God from being indifferent in this matter, that there is nothing whatever about which He is so, for He worketh all things, without exception," after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11), consequently, if He positively wills whatever is done, He cannot be indifferent with regard to anything. On the whole, if God was not unwilling that Adam should fall, He must have been willing that he should, since between God's willing and unwilling there is no medium. And is it not highly rational as well as Scriptural, nay, is it not absolutely necessary to suppose that the fall was not contrary to the will and determination of God? since, if it was, His will (which the apostle represents as being irresistible, Rom. 9:19) was apparently frustrated and His determination rendered of worse than none effect. And how dishonourable to, how inconsistent with, and how notoriously subversive of the dignity of God such a blasphemous supposition would be, and how irreconcileable with every one of His allowed attributes is very easy to observe."
As far as free will - man since the Fall has lost "free will". Man only acts according to his nature, which since the Fall is wicked. Man is "free" to act only within the confines of his inherent nature. But since the inherent nature is corrupt, man "freely" acts wickedly. This is spiritual bondage and man is not free in a spiritual sense.
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onlynow
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: fivepointer]
#7493291 - 10/07/07 12:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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IMO using so much wordplay just creates confusion and duality. quit eating from the tree of knowledge!
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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Cracka_X
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: onlynow]
#7493319 - 10/07/07 12:59 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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oh my, is there really a debate on this?
This biblical nut flexing is ridiculous.
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Cracka_X]
#7493331 - 10/07/07 01:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The wonders of Christianity are far from being subject to reason.  I know I didn't say anything new but I just had to say it.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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onlynow
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: Cracka_X]
#7493399 - 10/07/07 01:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just look at the story of the beginning of the world. God said to Adam and Eve, "Don't eat from the tree of knowledge, and don't eat from the tree of life."
He had prohibited two trees. Both are the most significant things in life: wisdom and life — and God denies both. Then you can go on eating all kinds of grass and whatsoever you want. He does not say, "Don't eat marijuana, don't drink alcohol." No, He is not interested in that. Adam and Eve can smoke grass, that is allowed; can make wine from grapes, that is allowed.
Only two things are not allowed: they should not become knowers, they should remain ignorant; and they should not live, they should go on postponing life. And because they disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge...they could not manage to eat the second tree's fruit, they were caught. After eating the fruit of knowledge they were speeding fast towards the tree of life but they were prevented immediately.
It is natural: anyone who has awareness, consciousness — which are the qualities of wisdom — his first thing will be to go deeper into life, to taste it as much as possible, to connect himself with its center, to be drowned in the mystery of life.
The story does not say it, but the story is not complete. I say to you, they were rushing immediately, because it is absolutely logical: after eating the fruit of knowledge they were rushing towards the tree of life. And that's why it was so easy for God to catch hold of them; otherwise, in the Garden of Eden there were so many millions of trees, where would He have found them? It would have taken eternity to search: rather than man searching for God, God would have been still searching for man, for where he is.
But I know how things would have happened — they are not told in the story. God, coming to know that they have eaten the fruit of knowledge, must have rushed immediately to the tree of life and waited there knowing that they must be coming. It is such simple logic, no Aristotle is needed. And certainly they were caught there. Both were rushing, naked, rejoicing, because for the first time their eyes were open. For the first time they were human beings; before this they were only animals amongst other animals...and God threw them out of the Garden of Eden. Since then, man has been longing for life, more life.
But the priests who represent the God that has driven you out of the Garden of Eden — the popes, the imams, the shankaracharyas, the rabbis, they all represent the same guy.
Strangely enough, nobody says that that guy was your first enemy. On the contrary, they say it was the poor serpent who convinced Eve, "You are being foolish by not eating from the tree of knowledge. God is jealous; He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of knowledge you will become wise. And He is afraid that if you eat from the tree of life you will be just like God. Then who is going to worship Him? He is jealous, afraid — that's why He has prevented you."
This serpent was humanity's first friend — but he is condemned. The friend is called the devil, and the enemy is called God. Strange are the ways of the human mind! You should thank the serpent! It is just because of the serpent that you have become what you have become. It is because of disobedience to God that you have attained a certain dignity, a pride of being human, a certain integrity, a certain individuality.
So instead of thanking God, change the phrase. Rather than saying, "Thank God!" say, "Thank the serpent!" It is just due to his compassion; otherwise why should he have bothered about you? He must have been a very compassionate fellow.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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Walter1496211
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: onlynow]
#7493447 - 10/07/07 02:02 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy" I drink to that every day.
-------------------- you see the world through the window of your experience
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a_guy_named_ai
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7494454 - 10/07/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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If anyone is not subject to reason it is people who don't recognize the logic behind scripture. What I see so much is people attacking scripture for a logic that the bible does not employ at all. It's all over this thread.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Did God want Eve to eat the fruit? [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
#7494460 - 10/07/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
If anyone is not subject to reason it is people who don't recognize the logic behind scripture.
And what would the "logic" behind the scripture might be?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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