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OfflineCrystal G
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Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada?
    #7491085 - 10/06/07 11:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I tried searching for this in google and got no conclusive answers... I know that a few members (johnm214 im looking at you) have extensive knowledge on legal issues and would at least be able to provide a link...

Virtually all of the casinos do hair testing on employees for drug screening. Now my question is... if you fail a test and show up positive for several scheduled substances, what's the worst they can legally do? Just say no? Is it possible to somehow prosecute you or put you on some "watched" list that they report to the police?

I don't know how strict Nevada is on personal substance use--I've asked several citizens of the state and they report mixed answers. Some say the penalties are quite harsh even for minor possession, others say that the laws have become more relaxed over the years.

Somehow, I find the latter hard to believe... Keep in mind this is in the Vegas area, where a lot of mafia activity takes place--which means they will be extra strict on some regulations. many places go as far to even FINGERPRINT their employees :eek: ...

So... is it likely that a positive test will be reported?


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Crystal G]
    #7491114 - 10/06/07 11:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

of course people in vegas actually fingerprint their employees, its called bonding, and it happens in lots of fields, especially in places where your job involves working with and around several hundred thousand dollars in casino chips.

as for criminal prosecution for failing a drug test, I highly doubt it. It's Vegas for gods sake.....

24 hour liquor, everyone can have a gun, hookers on every cocrner, and you really think that theyll call the cops on you because you drop dirty?


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #7491155 - 10/06/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Capatalistc nomad said:
of course people in vegas actually fingerprint their employees, its called bonding, and it happens in lots of fields, especially in places where your job involves working with and around several hundred thousand dollars in casino chips.

as for criminal prosecution for failing a drug test, I highly doubt it. It's Vegas for gods sake.....

24 hour liquor, everyone can have a gun, hookers on every cocrner, and you really think that theyll call the cops on you because you drop dirty?




Vegas is really not as lax as people imagine it to be. I mean, maybe for tourists it gives that vibe, but for a resident, the guidelines are strict. Believe it or not, there ARE undercover cops roaming around the strip. Hell, even my SCHOOL required mandatory fingerprints from the local police department.


Edited by Crystal G (10/06/07 12:41 PM)


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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Crystal G]
    #7491173 - 10/06/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It wouldn't be admissible evidence in any sort of legal proceeding, as far as I can tell.

If the court had a relationship with the institution for purposes to determine if certain individuals were using (e.g. work release program, probation), then likely, but the real factor here is the insurance companies that back the casinos require that the casinos test employees.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Mezcal]
    #7491236 - 10/06/07 12:36 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mezcal said:
It wouldn't be admissible evidence in any sort of legal proceeding, as far as I can tell.

If the court had a relationship with the institution for purposes to determine if certain individuals were using (e.g. work release program, probation), then likely, but the real factor here is the insurance companies that back the casinos require that the casinos test employees.




That's the thing.

I'm not sure if it is required by state law that all casinos are required to hair test employees.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Crystal G]
    #7491262 - 10/06/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The state is well known for its easy marriage and divorce proceedings, legalization of gambling and, in some counties, prostitution. It also has some of the country's strictest drug laws.

This is a notable exception to Nevada's otherwise libertarian principles. It is notable for having the harshest penalties for drug offenders in the country. Nevada remains the only state to still use mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines for marijuana possession. However, it is now a misdemeanor for possession of less than one ounce. In 2006, voters in Nevada defeated attempts to allow possession of 1 ounce of marijuana (for personal use) without being criminally prosecuted, but this failed by a vote of (55% against legalization, 45% in favor of legalization). Also, Nevada is one of the states that allows for use of marijuana for medical reasons (though this remains illegal under federal law, and US Supreme Court rulings).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada#Drug_laws


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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Crystal G]
    #7491267 - 10/06/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Even still, I think it would come down to a constitutional issue if they tried to use those test results as evidence in a criminal hearing. It wouldn't have been collected in any reasonable manner.

I don't even think if they made you sign something that says "this evidence may be used against me" that it would still be valid. Anybody is free to apply for a job, whether or not you're a drug user, forcing somebody to make themselves culpable for any crime as a requirement for a job application would not hold up in any American court, AFAIK.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Mezcal]
    #7491415 - 10/06/07 01:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

do individual states really obey the constitutional laws though?

dammit, i need to find out whether a positive test can at the very least be an indicator for being "under the influence," or whether a positive test for certain heavily scrutinized narcotics can have a search warrant placed on your address.

should i use a fake address? but then this is a crime too, no? maybe i'll just not put my social security number until they decide to employ me?

call me paranoid, but nevada is fucking CRAZY when it comes to this shit.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Mezcal]
    #7492477 - 10/06/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mezcal said:
Even still, I think it would come down to a constitutional issue if they tried to use those test results as evidence in a criminal hearing. It wouldn't have been collected in any reasonable manner.

I don't even think if they made you sign something that says "this evidence may be used against me" that it would still be valid. Anybody is free to apply for a job, whether or not you're a drug user, forcing somebody to make themselves culpable for any crime as a requirement for a job application would not hold up in any American court, AFAIK.




I think your wrong. The casino is a private party and not an agent of the govt. As such, the "poisoned fruit" doctrine wouldn't apply.

Quote:

The Fourth Amendment gives protection against unlawful searches and seizures, and as shown in the previous cases, its protection applies to governmental action. Its origin and history clearly show that it was intended as a restraint upon the activities of sovereign authority, and was not intended to be a limitation upon other than governmental agencies; as against such authority it was the purpose of the Fourth Amendment to secure the citizen in the right of unmolested occupation of his dwelling and the possession of his property, subject to the right of seizure by process duly issued.

In the present case the record clearly shows that no official of the federal government had anything to do with the wrongful seizure of the petitioner's property, or any knowledge thereof until several months after the property had been taken from him and was in the possession of the Cities Service Company. It is manifest that there was no invasion of the security afforded by the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure, as whatever wrong was done was the act of individuals in taking the property of another.


SEE: BURDEAU v. MCDOWELL, 256 U.S. 465 (1921)

The police are bound by rules that do not apply to private parties. The fact that a private party engages in activity that is not allowed to the govt does not preent the govt from relying on evidence developed therefrom. Thererofore, there is no reason the evidence would not be admissable per the usual rules of evidence- which would presumably be met given the employer's desire to avoid civil liability due to adverse employment decisions resultant from the testing.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: johnm214]
    #7492487 - 10/06/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It wouldn't be admissible evidence in any sort of legal proceeding, as far as I can tell.

If the court had a relationship with the institution for purposes to determine if certain individuals were using (e.g. work release program, probation), then likely, but the real factor here is the insurance companies that back the casinos require that the casinos test employees.




I don't see why the previous would have any baring on the admissibilty. Either the evidence is reliable, and complies with the rules of evidence, or it is does not. Whether the court has a relationship with the testing lab or whomever has nothing to do with the rules for admitting evidence- try and find mention of this in any states' rules.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: johnm214]
    #7492502 - 10/06/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

To respond to the original question, I don't see how a failed test could support prosecution unless you are allready subject to a court's jurisdiction and that court has forbade you from consuming the substances you tested positive for.

The courts only have jurisdiction to enforce laws in their territory. Testing positive does not mean that you consumed drugs in the county, city , state, country, or wherever. Thus the issue becomes on e of jurisdiction. While the law does not forbid you from consuming drugs anywhere, just within the legislature's jurisdiction, the prosecution would have to show that you used in an area under the court's authority- which they couldnt' do unless you admitted to it- and this is assuming they even care, which they probably don't.

Of course the issue is different for people under the jurisdiction of the court's orders, whcih may forbid them from consuming x number of substances. There they could still not prosecute you for the consumption under the existing drug abuse laws per se, but for the probation violation (consumption while on probation/ parole) or for the travel (leaving the state/ county).

A final note is that for many drugs, which leave unmetabalized traces in your body, their is a theoretical risk of being charged with possesion, as many states don't distinguish between trace amounts and say a gram of substance. I would be surprised if anyone was prosecuted for this, however; and I've never hear of it- though it is in theory possible.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Mezcal]
    #7492515 - 10/06/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mezcal said:
Even still, I think it would come down to a constitutional issue if they tried to use those test results as evidence in a criminal hearing. It wouldn't have been collected in any reasonable manner.

I don't even think if they made you sign something that says "this evidence may be used against me" that it would still be valid. Anybody is free to apply for a job, whether or not you're a drug user, forcing somebody to make themselves culpable for any crime as a requirement for a job application would not hold up in any American court, AFAIK.




What do you contend is the "constitutional issue"? I can't identify one... please share.


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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: johnm214]
    #7492599 - 10/06/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I think your wrong. The casino is a private party and not an agent of the govt. As such, the "poisoned fruit" doctrine wouldn't apply.

Quote:

The Fourth Amendment gives protection against unlawful searches and seizures, and as shown in the previous cases, its protection applies to governmental action. Its origin and history clearly show that it was intended as a restraint upon the activities of sovereign authority, and was not intended to be a limitation upon other than governmental agencies; as against such authority it was the purpose of the Fourth Amendment to secure the citizen in the right of unmolested occupation of his dwelling and the possession of his property, subject to the right of seizure by process duly issued.

In the present case the record clearly shows that no official of the federal government had anything to do with the wrongful seizure of the petitioner's property, or any knowledge thereof until several months after the property had been taken from him and was in the possession of the Cities Service Company. It is manifest that there was no invasion of the security afforded by the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure, as whatever wrong was done was the act of individuals in taking the property of another.


SEE: BURDEAU v. MCDOWELL, 256 U.S. 465 (1921)

The police are bound by rules that do not apply to private parties. The fact that a private party engages in activity that is not allowed to the govt does not preent the govt from relying on evidence developed therefrom. Thererofore, there is no reason the evidence would not be admissable per the usual rules of evidence- which would presumably be met given the employer's desire to avoid civil liability due to adverse employment decisions resultant from the testing.




You make a good argument. I suppose that the rules of evidence would support the use of an employment-related drug test if it supported a court order or somehow some other criminal trial.

On the issue of whether or not somebody not under court orders or probation would have to worry about being arrested as a result of such a failed screening test, I think you cleared that up in a separate post.

Thanks for being clear and citing the docket!


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: johnm214]
    #7492654 - 10/06/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Crystal G, you've lost it. What in the world would make you think that anything could come of a failed pee test?

Failing a pee test is not a crime. Being high is not a crime.

There is no possible criminal action that could be taken against you for failing a pee test. It's not even something that is worthy of getting you on a watch list.

As far as your other questions, it probably could be used as evidence against you if you were involved in some sort of legal trouble AND the court somehow found out. 9 out of 10 times it would be inadmissible simply because it wouldn't be relevant, but I can't see how they would even find out about it. Many, if not most, drug test agreements state that the results are confidential anyway.

Anyhow, you shouldn't take a pee test if you might fail. Cheat it!


-FF


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: fastfred]
    #7492665 - 10/06/07 09:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

^^the only reason I'm freaking out about it is because it's a HAIR test (not urine, i've done plenty of those), and those reportedly can detect any drugs used within the past 6 months. like what the fuck, do they want my fucking dna samples too!??!!?!? how about an egg for fertilization??? LOL!!! seriously, things like hair samples, fingerprints, and gas chromatography is something I'd only expect for a high-ranking government position.

I knew johnm214 wouldn't fail me though. I guess I'm just going to go ahead and take it, and hope that they don't say no. :smile:


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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Crystal G]
    #7493688 - 10/07/07 07:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


You make a good argument. I suppose that the rules of evidence would support the use of an employment-related drug test if it supported a court order or somehow some other criminal trial.

On the issue of whether or not somebody not under court orders or probation would have to worry about being arrested as a result of such a failed screening test, I think you cleared that up in a separate post.

Thanks for being clear and citing the docket!





For what its worth, I think, as I assume you do, that the govt should be unable to use evidence obtained in an illegal manner even if the collection was done by a thrid party.

There was a recent case, similar to this discussion, where a computer nerd installed some sort of trojan or other thingy in child porn files he then posted for download via peer to peer. Apparently the file, when opened, announced the IP address of the user, and this information was forworded by the individual to the police in the states.

The subsequent prosecutions were upheld as the guy who did the hacking was outside of the united states and had no connection with the govt there- he simply didn't like kiddy porn perverts, and was not acting under the direction or incentive of the us / state govts.

While I don't much care for kiddy porn users, I think its a dangerous trend- just like how the govt tries to avoid public records laws and other accountability measures by contracting out typically governemtn bookeeping and services (ie. accounting, recordkeeping, prisons). My understanding is that the govt has had some degree of success with this. Maybe if the practice becomes more widespread the issue will come to a head with legislation or court action- but I'm not holding my breath.


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Offlineallreadyused
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Crystal G]
    #7497145 - 10/08/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have kind of a dumb question... Why would you even take a drug test for a job you know you will fail? It's one thing to be on probation and be forced to take a drug test, but applying for a job where you know they will hair test and you know you will "show up positive for several scheduled substances". Hair tests are hard if not impossible to beat.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: allreadyused]
    #7499707 - 10/08/07 10:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

allreadyused said:
I have kind of a dumb question... Why would you even take a drug test for a job you know you will fail? It's one thing to be on probation and be forced to take a drug test, but applying for a job where you know they will hair test and you know you will "show up positive for several scheduled substances". Hair tests are hard if not impossible to beat.




1) Because I THOUGHT the worst they could do was say "no," hence the reason for me asking this question. 2) I'm not sure if I will show positive for these scheduled items... I detoxed around 6 months ago which is just the bridgeline for when traces supposedly leave your hair... I will probably show up for 3 items, but I can easily talk my way out of those, as they are technically pharmaceuticals.


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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? [Re: Crystal G]
    #7500139 - 10/09/07 12:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

As you hair grows the drugs they test for stays in one place on the hair doesn't it? If it does just cut your hair short.


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OfflineChemy
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Re: Can you be prosecuted for failing a hair/urine test for employment in Nevada? *DELETED* [Re: minesstudent]
    #7500651 - 10/09/07 06:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Chemy

Reason for deletion: Deleting all posts for security reasons



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