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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Cordyceps in Washington State
    #7490010 - 10/05/07 09:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Mrs Rabbit found this today while we were looking for Chanterelles in an old growth forest in the Cascade mountains of Washington State. It's the first time I've ever seen such a thing around here. I carefully excavated it and sure enough, it was growing from an insect larvae of some kind. I'll be cloning it in the morning.
RR


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OfflineCryogenicz
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7490173 - 10/05/07 11:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Mrs's always find the good shit. (grumble)

-Graham


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7490217 - 10/06/07 12:21 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm... I bet there is a good key to identifying Cordyceps some where on the web...  I'll have to find it later.

Cloning sounds like a fantastic idea.  You should probably preserve whatever remains of the fruiting body, since the clone will doubtfully fruit in absence of the insect host.

Good shit.  :laugh:


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: CureCat]
    #7490262 - 10/06/07 01:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Good find... lucky you.. :thumbup:

C. militaris is very much like that..


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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: Speeker]
    #7490443 - 10/06/07 03:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

amazing :rockon:


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #7490668 - 10/06/07 07:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thats awesome!

Cul


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7496867 - 10/08/07 10:09 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:





Can I nominate for Pic of the Month if its not in the Pictures forum?  :congrats::congrats:


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7498865 - 10/08/07 06:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Nice find RR.  Rare indeed.
:grin:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: @cro]
    #7499597 - 10/08/07 09:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hey bro, nice to see ya.

I've made two transfers away from bacteria so far, and it's looking like I'm going to have a clean culture after a few more.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7501137 - 10/09/07 10:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Neat!

What does the mycelium look like?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: Hotnuts]
    #7501194 - 10/09/07 10:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Bright white, provided that's cordyceps mycelium and not mold I have. I've been making transfers away from bacteria contamination every 24 to 30 hours. The mycelium is just now getting established. I'm shooting video of the entire cloning and isolation procedure, so will have pictures to show if things work out as expected.
RR


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7502164 - 10/09/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

What altitude and temperature zones did you find it in?  Just curious, I'm not sure if you remember our conversation a while ago about acquiring Cordycep Sinesis.  The little project I was working on(getting samples from pills) I scrapped it and took your advice and my Lions Mane is on the way.  Very interesting about the Pf cake method your doing, I'm thinking of giving it a try. 

Anyway, thats an amazing find and I hope your cloning goes well. :thumbup:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: 2FiNiTe]
    #7502206 - 10/09/07 05:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It was found about 35 to 40 miles east of Seattle, at an elevation of 2500 feet above sea level. We're going back to the same area tomorrow to look for more. I don't hold out much hope of finding any since this is our regular mushroom hunting area that we've used for at least 20 years. We'll be getting up at 4 AM so we can get there at the start of daylight. Perhaps now that we've seen one up close, we can have our eyes tuned in better.
RR


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Offline2FiNiTe
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7502768 - 10/09/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thats a pretty low altitude for Cordyceps, very interesting, but then again thats the wrong side of the world too:shocked:.Again awesome find and I wish you luck.

:goodluck:


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7507590 - 10/11/07 12:28 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

very interesting, thanks for sharing


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7507898 - 10/11/07 05:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Great find Roger,
always glad to see your pics, and save the culture :smile:

Fabio :smile:

ps. i'll go next week to charge my cc to buy the DVDs, sorry for the delay but i'm totally busy.


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7508514 - 10/11/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

very cool!~

:thumbup:


You should go up to Rattlesnake and look for Chanterelles, bro...

they are thick up in there.


tc


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: Roadkill]
    #7509040 - 10/11/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Yea, ya can't hardly walk in that area without stepping on them. I'm burned out already, but of course viv can't ever get enough chanties. I like the Boletes much better, but they're just about done for the season.
RR


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7515701 - 10/14/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here's a few pictures of the cloning process so far. There seems to be very little information online or in print regarding cordyceps cultivation. I know they do have a 'green mold' stage where the mycelium can produce spores without producing a fruit body first. Hopefully, that's some of what I'm seeing here. The color is blue, but microscopically, they're nothing like penicillium spores. The mycelium itself seems to resemble mold as well, with lots of branching.

The first picture is the next morning after the initial cloning to agar, showing each transfer point surrounded by bacteria. A few transfers later, I've been able to leave most of the bacteria behind, thanks to iodine and peroxide on the cultures, and gentmycin sulphate in the agar.

In the third dish, there are no blue spores in the section labeled X-4, even though the mycelium resembles the other two sections of the dish that are sporulating. I took a few transfers from that section this morning.

The next picture has a section X2A, that has different mycelium than the rest, even though blue spores are showing at the points of transfer. The multiple colonies in the center dishes are not satellite colonies, but were put there by transfers to try to get as many cultures as possible onto the dishes, since I was running out of petris.

The last picture is from transfers that were made 24 hours ago. I took sixty cultures yesterday, three on each of 20 dishes. I transferred once again mycelium from each and every culture I had going. They appear to be starting to sporulate on the oldest part of the culture. I'm still having my doubts whether I have Cordyceps mycelium or mold. I'm on my fifth sleeve of petri dishes for these isolations, but the pictures shown are representative of all.

Hopefully, someone will come along with some knowledge of Cordyceps (John?) and let me know if I'm on the right track here. Otherwise, the pictures are up for the next researcher to study. I'll update as I find out more.
RR



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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7515798 - 10/14/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

THIS is how i like it :smile:


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: ohmatic]
    #7516064 - 10/14/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for posting those RR, it's very interesting!

Cul


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: Culland]
    #7522710 - 10/16/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The section labeled X2A turned out to be trichoderma and has been discarded. The sections X3 and X4 seem to be contaminant-free cordyceps mycelium, one in the conidial stage, and the other not. I'll be sending these within the next few days for DNA testing.
RR


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Offlinebodynotdead
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7569246 - 10/28/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Got any news on the DNA testing?

How are you going to fruit?
I never seen growing perimeters for Cordyceps.

And I pay good money for a Culture Syringe $$$


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: bodynotdead]
    #7569274 - 10/28/07 09:46 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Still waiting on the DNA results. They've had the culture for 2 weeks now, so it shouldn't be much longer.

The Cordyceps mycelium has the same medicinal benefits as the fruits, so it isn't necessary to fruit them. Most grow on rye grains until the grains have been consumed(over colonized) by the mycelium. You're then left with a jar of nearly pure cordyceps mycelium that can be dried and ground to powder.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7569861 - 10/28/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You're then left with a jar of nearly pure cordyceps mycelium that can be dried and ground to powder.
RR


I have read different.(In many cases, the solid-substrate grown mycelium we tested was greater than 80% residual grain. However, a bonus to this method is that the extra-cellular compounds are harvested along with the substrate and mycelium.) i found this here http://www.pharmaceuticalmushrooms.nwbotanicals.org/lexicon/cordyceps/hybridcordyceps.htmThe only way they were left with a good out come was with this substrate.So from our substrate testing it was determined that the ideal medium for solid substrate growth of Cordyceps is as follows: 1 part white proso millet (husk on) to 4 parts of white milo (husk on), with the addition of 0.8% w/w of ground oyster shell and 1% w/w vegetable oil (peanut oil or soybean oil). Add water to equal 50% total moisture in the sterilized substrate. Precooking the grain mixture for 4-6 hours prior to sterilization tends to trigger a much faster growth response from the Cordyceps. On this medium, Cordyceps can be grown for long periods of time, allowing nearly complete conversion of the substrate to mycelium and the full expression of secondary metabolites from the Cordyceps. The resultant Cordyceps when grown on this substrate is about 3-4% residual grain, or about 96-98% pure mycelium.


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Edited by poboy (10/28/07 02:49 PM)


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: poboy]
    #7570461 - 10/28/07 05:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Must be about the small kernel size. Makes sense.


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7611499 - 11/08/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That looks like a Cordyceps militaris due to its orangish color. If it was more yellow i'd say it could be Cordyceps washingtonensis.

here's a link to a neat little PNW Club fungus field key.
PNW Club Fungi Field Key
(Seems I beat you to it CureCat)

Here's another site with a description of militaris:
Cordyceps militaris

I like this excerpt:
"Cordyceps militaris is pretty much the coolest mushroom ever, and I will detail its features in a moment--but first I am obliged to discuss CMS, a common problem among mushroom hunters and mycologists. The acronym stands for Cordyceps Moron Syndrome, and symptoms present in two ways. The CMS sufferer 1) plucks any club fungus instantly from its substrate, regardless of what treasures might be found beneath the mushroom, and 2) cannot manage to take a decent photo of a Cordyceps even when the first symptom is bypassed."

Seems RR doesn't have CMS!


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Edited by BlimeyGrimey (11/08/07 03:03 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #7611642 - 11/08/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The DNA results were expected yesterday. I've been checking email every hour to see if they're there yet.

I'm also suspecting C militaris, but there are some subtle differences, particularly in the club part. The DNA should tell for sure.

They're also doing an unrelated metals test on a shiitake mushroom I sent them. I had a telephone book substrate colonizing in an aluminum turkey pan, and after colonization, it had holes eaten all the way through by the mycelium metabolites. The picture is below. Many cubensis growers have seen the same phenomenon. They're testing the fruitbody for the presence of aluminium to see if it gets absorbed by the mycelium and transferred to the fruit. That test is due in ten days.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7612225 - 11/08/07 06:03 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Out of curiosity how much does it cost for you to get a DNA test done and test for metals? What kind of lab do you send it to?

Cul


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7612273 - 11/08/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The DNA results were expected yesterday. I've been checking email every hour to see if they're there yet.





WoW! good luck! the suspense must be KILLING you!


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: Cryogenicz]
    #7614941 - 11/09/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cryogenicz said:
Mrs's always find the good shit. (grumble)

-Graham




ain't it the truth?!

awesome find, excellent pictures.
looks like that took some careful excavation...


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: faceofbear]
    #7618356 - 11/10/07 11:30 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The DNA test results came back, and unfortunately, I had isolated a non-sporulating form of Penicillium spinulosum rather than the Cordyceps I was after. I've kept all petri dishes since the beginning in the refrigerator, so I'll go back to stage one and try to get the correct culture this time around. The lab, for those of you interested in DNA testing of fungi cultures is Accugenix, located in Newark, DE. The tests aren't cheap.

It's my understanding that cordyceps mycelium can withstand freezing, so I'll try first putting the cultures into a hard freeze, then after thawing, I'll try to isolate all growths that emerge. I also still have what's left of the original Cordyceps, including the insect host, that has been dried and preserved. I'll try some dry culture restoration techniques as well. I really don't want to lose this, as it's a once in a lifetime find, especially for this area.

The metals test on the Shittake is due by the end of next week.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7618852 - 11/10/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry to hear that RR, hope you get it in the next attempt!

Cul


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7669572 - 11/23/07 09:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Did the metals test ever come back? I'd like to know how that went.


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #7670016 - 11/23/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm still waiting on the metals test. It's overdue, so should be any day. I'll post results as soon as I have them.

I also made up a batch of cricket agar to isolate the cordyceps farther. Some promising growth is occurring, and absolutely no bacteria seems to be growing on the cricket agar. I won't know anything until we've sent off each isolate for DNA testing. This might be something that could actually help isolate other species of mycelium away from contaminants. I used 18 small crickets(live until I pushed the button on the blender) and 20 grams of agar-agar in 600 ml water.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7670056 - 11/23/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

:puke:

Why crickets?


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: abesh]
    #7670181 - 11/23/07 12:07 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Because they have them at the pet store. It's too late in the season to collect them outdoors.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7675994 - 11/24/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Awesome. I wonder if they can be found in PA


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: legallyhomeless]
    #7689794 - 11/28/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The results of the metals testing came back. It appears that even though the mycelium metabolites disolved the aluminum, it wasn't conducted into the fruit bodies. Here's the tray the project colonized in, and beside it, the metals testing report. I'll post this over in cultivation also, for those who might not see it here.
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7689844 - 11/28/07 10:43 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

The results of the metals testing came back. 

It appears that even though the mycelium metabolites disolved the aluminum, it wasn't conducted into the fruit bodies. 





That's great news!~

:smile:


Thank you for taking the time and money to have this tested...

I was always concerned with using disposable alum trays for growing back when I used them....

so I stopped using them many years ago because of my concern...

and also because of the acid like reaction making holes in the pan itself, so I switched to using heavy duty plastics instead.


thanks again!~


tc


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PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: Roadkill]
    #7689877 - 11/28/07 10:52 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Cool. And like RK said thanks not only for spending money for testing and stuff, but also taking the time to share that info with us.
I have some questions, but I'll ask them in your thread in the cult forum.


Also how is the isolation on cricket agar coming along????


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: abesh]
    #7689884 - 11/28/07 10:54 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

How much did the metals test cost? I'd like to have tested some Chinese grown dried mushrooms.


Edited by YidakiMan (11/28/07 10:58 AM)


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7690845 - 11/28/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

$100. You can contact them directly at the address in the report above. I'll bet you a dollar the Chinese mushrooms have high levels of mercury.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7691060 - 11/28/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That's a good bet to take.

What about sawdust pellets? My pellets say 100% Hardwood; no glues, accelerants
etc, but it also says not for use as a cooking fuel. What's keeping me from growing mushrooms on the pellets or moreso, whats keeping me from selling mushrooms grown on the pellets.


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: YidakiMan]
    #7691402 - 11/28/07 04:49 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Nothing. I've used pellets before. They expand like hell, so soak them first, then load into jars/bags after they separate back into regular sawdust. I'd supplement them with 10% to 20% wheat bran by volume, although you'd then have to sterilize. If they're non-treated pellets, I don't see why you can't call your mushrooms organic. Mushrooms grown on forest products are generally considered organic.
RR


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7713859 - 12/04/07 02:07 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The cricket agar is pretty genius. I must say.

Keep up the good work Roger. :thumbup:


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7888338 - 01/16/08 01:51 PM (16 years, 16 days ago)

is there an update?


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: HerbBaker]
    #8214961 - 03/30/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

am also pretty curious about this!


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: John Smith]
    #8215286 - 03/30/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know anything but I wouldn't have use cricket agar! since cordyceps only attacks a specific subspecies of animals.

So for example if it is a bee cordycep it wont affect a wasp.

Good luck!


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State [Re: ohmatic]
    #8270557 - 04/11/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

any Updates??


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8270795 - 04/11/08 06:30 PM (15 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I also made up a batch of cricket agar to isolate the cordyceps farther.




:cool:


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11210613 - 10/08/09 08:13 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I know I'd be reviving this post from the dead, but I thought your idea of making cricket agar was interesting.

Would it hurt if you made a mixture of insects into an agar solution so you wouldn't need to worry about the specificity of the cordycep strain you got?


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #11214370 - 10/09/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It doesn't seem that it would hurt.  Cordyceps don't naturally grow on crickets anyway.  I was living in a condo in Seattle at the time, and the pet store nearby had live crickets for sale.  I would speculate that other insects would also work well, but you'd just have to try and let us know.
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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11243457 - 10/13/09 11:48 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome work all around, RR.

I'm curious how the company generates species-specific results for consumers.  According to their site, they sequence a part of the ITS region, which is a very good place to start, but it's not clear whether they utilize NCBI or their own internal database for phylogenetic construction and/or species identification.  The sample report I saw just seemed to kick out 'the closest match'.  If they are only using an in-house database I don't know that I'd trust their species identification of a 'fungi perfecti'.  Most of their business appears to be directed toward environmental isolates and their in house library may not include m/any Cordyceps spp.  Odds are the results are valid, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.  Since they are just an identification service, I seriously doubt they'd do this for you, but for a hundred bones I personally would really like to get a hold of the actual sequence data they generated.  It is a very simple thing to plug that data into NCBI and see what matches pop up there when you blast it [and how good those matches are].  I guess the main point is that if their library doesn't include at least some closely related Cordys, you're going to get 'garbage out' in that report they send you [even if it was an ATCC Cordyceps you submitted]


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Re: Cordyceps in Washington State? [Re: Suntzu]
    #11246035 - 10/14/09 01:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It was John Holliday of alohamedicinals.com who actually sent the mycelium to the DNA lab, after I sent it to him.  I'm assuming they're someone he works with on cordyceps a lot, so they have his cultures to sequence.  I don't have any of the paperwork other than what's scanned above.
RR


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