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Offlinebuggas
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Keeping the Mycelium Alive
    #7489655 - 10/05/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think i'm on to something but i want to double check.

Cakes get spent after a few flushes, because of a)no more moisture, and b)no more nutrients, correct?

If i were to dunk said cake, in between every flush, that would recharge moisture and probably squeeze out another flush or two, correct? Does this mean that adding the water would help the myc consume just a bit more of the nutrients it had left?

If this is true, then how would i possibly be able to add more nutrients to the cake as well as moisture? For example, if one was to continually add more nutrients and water to a cake, then would it continue to flush indefinitely?

And the last part... If a cake is about to wrap up it's existence, could i then break it up and case it, or is a spent cake a spent cake?

I know this has been touched on the forum before, but basically, i want to know if as long as i'm giving the myc some nutrients, water and fresh clean air, could it stay alive? Can a fungus be similar to a house plant in this respect or do you always need to take a print, prepare and then inoculate again?

Thanx for your knowledge!!! I really appreciate it!


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OfflineDigitalNomad
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
    #7489668 - 10/05/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

People have had this idea of, "just keeping feeding it and it'll live forever, right?" before. I think the general consensus is that Mycelium eventually just gets too old and dies. It's like a person, you can keep feeding us, but we'll eventually die of old age. This isn't to say that yes, hydrating a cake will make it last longer. As for inserting nutrients, I suppose you could figure out a way?

But as with all things, you might as well try it with a spent cake and see what happens? Worst case, you still have nothing from nothing. Best, a few shrooms?


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Offlinefuturewolf42o
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
    #7489672 - 10/05/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i once broke up ~spent cakes into a patch outside..with pretty poor conditions i got a nice flush the next year although it stopped producing anything right after that for no reason.


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: futurewolf42o]
    #7489729 - 10/05/07 07:48 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You could clone it, and create a master culture that can remain viable for over a year if refrigerated and stored properly.


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Offlinefuturewolf42o
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: DigitalNomad]
    #7489742 - 10/05/07 07:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DigitalNomad said:
People have had this idea of, "just keeping feeding it and it'll live forever, right?" before. I think the general consensus is that Mycelium eventually just gets too old and dies. It's like a person, you can keep feeding us, but we'll eventually die of old age. This isn't to say that yes, hydrating a cake will make it last longer. As for inserting nutrients, I suppose you could figure out a way?

But as with all things, you might as well try it with a spent cake and see what happens? Worst case, you still have nothing from nothing. Best, a few shrooms?




i wonder if it would be harder to perfect immortality for humans, or immortality for fungi.


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Invisibleimpeachme2
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: futurewolf42o]
    #7489747 - 10/05/07 07:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



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Offlinefuturewolf42o
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: impeachme2]
    #7489756 - 10/05/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

thats in my bookmarks! ;D


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OfflineDigitalNomad
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: impeachme2]
    #7489758 - 10/05/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, there's a theory that the reason cells age is that every time a cell divides, some of the DNA in the chromosomes gets sheared off. Luckily, those ends are 'capped' by noncoding DNA, so it doesn't really matter. But eventually you start cutting into the coding DNA after X number of generations, which is why some scientists think that's what causes the cells to 'age.'
So, if it's that on a genetic level, it really is just a matter of tweaking that. Cancer cells have figured it out, they're effectively immortal.


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Offlinefuturewolf42o
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: DigitalNomad]
    #7489770 - 10/05/07 08:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DigitalNomad said:
Well, there's a theory that the reason cells age is that every time a cell divides, some of the DNA in the chromosomes gets sheared off.  Luckily, those ends are 'capped' by noncoding DNA, so it doesn't really matter.  But eventually you start cutting into the coding DNA after X number of generations, which is why some scientists think that's what causes the cells to 'age.'
So, if it's that on a genetic level, it really is just a matter of tweaking that.  Cancer cells have figured it out, they're effectively immortal.




i've read that an enzyme that is produced in your body eats away the outer areas of your DNA, although im lazy and you'll have to google it yourself :grin:


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Offlinethegoat191
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: futurewolf42o]
    #7490226 - 10/06/07 12:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yes, these non-encoding "capped" ends are called telomeres, which are STRs (short tandem repeats), and occur at the ends of gene sequences. Everytime a DNA replicates, some of these ends are sheared off due to DNA polymerase primers being removed. Telomerase is the enzyme that replaces these telomere ends, but most cells don't have very active telomerases, so after a certain number of replicative cycles, the genes begin to get chewed away, and the DNA becomes unstable, thus triggering expression of programmed cell-death (apoptosis) genes that prevent further replications. Cancer, as nomad mentioned, have more active telomerases, so they can continue replacing those chewed off STRs that flank the replicated sequences, and thus never trigger apoptosis, living on indefinately. I guess it would be possible to make transgenic mutants of fungi, and any organism for that matter, that would have up-regulated telomerase activity and thus the cells would never die. But, until that happens, pre-programmed cell death will occur due to this process, and sadly, your mycellial cells will die. :frown:


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OfflineKevsaNewb
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
    #7491524 - 10/06/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

heh, imagine a giant immortal shroom....now picture a temple built around it...then add post-2012 hippies...:mushroom2:


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Offlinebuggas
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: KevsaNewb]
    #7494103 - 10/07/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting to see the direction this post took after a couple of days.

It makes sense that the fungi would die eventually. Most living things do, except for cancer i guess (which i never knew, or thought about for that matter).

The clone idea is a good one; however, i wonder if you were to eventually make a clone of that clone, would you end up with "retarded" shrooms, and how many clone generations would that take?


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Offlineresptodd
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
    #7574543 - 10/29/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

what about dunking in a Hpoo tea?


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: resptodd]
    #7575484 - 10/30/07 05:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

We are designed with a finite lifecycle. Telomeres exit for a reason. The longer we live our DNA mutates more and more, and the chances that our offspring will inherit these mutations increases, so nature has programmed us to die so we don't produce defective offspring.

Older, "tired" mycelim, that has already fruited has completed it's mission (produce offpring) and so, it's biological mission is now to die. This happens with all kinds of organisms. Annual plants for example die off after producing seeds.

This is why, while you can produce lots of generations so clones off an agar plate (or G2G) wich contains myc that hasn't fruited it isn't really feasible to do so with older myc.

Remember that a clone doesn't reset it's clock, it has the same age as it parent was at the moment of cloning. Anyone remember Dolly the Sheep?


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: Nibin]
    #7575493 - 10/30/07 06:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You could try dunking in water with marmite or yeast inbetween flushes to try and give back some nuetriants, but i would not think it would help the myc live much longer.

When myc fruits thats it known that sometimes soon it will die and it should produce shrooms to disperse spores to continue the growth.


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OfflineFellowGrower
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7575564 - 10/30/07 06:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

...lol I wish Myc had a fuckin Pulse or some shit!
I swear I think my LC's keep Dyin!?
Nothing worse than knocking shit up with dead myc.
... thats when you stop "Growing Shrooms",
and start "Studying Bacteria" lol.


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InvisibleSlimz
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: FellowGrower]
    #7575574 - 10/30/07 06:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

how long will a LC generaly live?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: Slimz]
    #7575581 - 10/30/07 07:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Y'all are missing the point with nutrient dunks. It won't work. Mushrooms don't grow hydroponically, so it doesn't matter what kind of liquid you add. Mycelium eats its food. That's why the substrate shrinks over time. Adding liquid 'nutes' is for plants. You'd have to add solid food for mycelium, and that's pretty hard because the dormant contaminant spores that are on the substrate would take over the new food quicker than the mushroom mycelium.
RR


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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7575604 - 10/30/07 07:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thats a good point RR, i never new myc only gets nutrients from the substrate and cant absorb it from water.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek


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Invisibleorchidfanatic
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7575654 - 10/30/07 08:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I know the cake gets old but someone should try to spawn a spent cake to new substrate and see if it recolonizes it .. this would grow new mycelium
that isnt old from the cake. I would think that risk of contamination would be high doing this.. but its worth a try for an experiment ..

Edit: opps I just read RR's take on adding new substrate I guess it wouldn't work well


Edited by orchidfanatic (10/30/07 08:28 AM)


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: veda_sticks]
    #7575660 - 10/30/07 08:05 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It doesn't absorb them like plants do through roots.
Saprophytic (or decomposer) fungi like cubes first secretes enzymes onto the foodsource and breaks down complex nutrients into less complec ones it can then absorb by fagocytosis.

So while dunking a cake in nutrients will add nutrients to that cake (as many as stay inside the cake) the dissolved nutrients are not readily absorbed by the fungus as they have not been broken down by the fungi.

Also, nutrients that dissolve in water are mainly simple molecules which are of little use to the mycelia as they require complex nutrients.

Imagine nutrients as lego building blocks. Plants feed on single blocks and build whatever structures they need. The rest of us, including fungi feed on fully built structures of blocks and take them apart and join them together again to make shapes that are useful for us.

Adding liquid nutrients would be equivalent to adding water with single lego blocks to the substrate which the mycelia can't use.

And as RR said, adding any kind of complex nutrients to a substrate is asking for contaminations.

For further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungi#Nutrition_and_possible_autotrophy_in_fungi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposer


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: orchidfanatic]
    #7575663 - 10/30/07 08:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

It's been done many times over the years by growers with the exact same rational. It's also failed every time. How would you put a spent cake with lots of contaminant spores all over it into fresh brf? That would be the same as not sterilizing the substrate.

You can spawn spent cakes into a manure pile in the yard, but that's not the same thing.
RR


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Offlinebuggas
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: orchidfanatic]
    #7577408 - 10/30/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Assuming you could add some more solid food in a sterile environment, would that do it? Just hypothetically for the sake of conversation


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