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buggas
Stranger


Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 145
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Keeping the Mycelium Alive
#7489655 - 10/05/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think i'm on to something but i want to double check.
Cakes get spent after a few flushes, because of a)no more moisture, and b)no more nutrients, correct?
If i were to dunk said cake, in between every flush, that would recharge moisture and probably squeeze out another flush or two, correct? Does this mean that adding the water would help the myc consume just a bit more of the nutrients it had left?
If this is true, then how would i possibly be able to add more nutrients to the cake as well as moisture? For example, if one was to continually add more nutrients and water to a cake, then would it continue to flush indefinitely?
And the last part... If a cake is about to wrap up it's existence, could i then break it up and case it, or is a spent cake a spent cake?
I know this has been touched on the forum before, but basically, i want to know if as long as i'm giving the myc some nutrients, water and fresh clean air, could it stay alive? Can a fungus be similar to a house plant in this respect or do you always need to take a print, prepare and then inoculate again?
Thanx for your knowledge!!! I really appreciate it!
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DigitalNomad
Neophyte


Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 158
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
#7489668 - 10/05/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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People have had this idea of, "just keeping feeding it and it'll live forever, right?" before. I think the general consensus is that Mycelium eventually just gets too old and dies. It's like a person, you can keep feeding us, but we'll eventually die of old age. This isn't to say that yes, hydrating a cake will make it last longer. As for inserting nutrients, I suppose you could figure out a way?
But as with all things, you might as well try it with a spent cake and see what happens? Worst case, you still have nothing from nothing. Best, a few shrooms?
-------------------- Here's to the first step...
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futurewolf42o
Le Jooses!



Registered: 03/30/06
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
#7489672 - 10/05/07 07:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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i once broke up ~spent cakes into a patch outside..with pretty poor conditions i got a nice flush the next year although it stopped producing anything right after that for no reason.
-------------------- cheese-it!
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Captain Cubensis
Bleeding HeartLiberal


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 648
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You could clone it, and create a master culture that can remain viable for over a year if refrigerated and stored properly.
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futurewolf42o
Le Jooses!



Registered: 03/30/06
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: DigitalNomad]
#7489742 - 10/05/07 07:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DigitalNomad said: People have had this idea of, "just keeping feeding it and it'll live forever, right?" before. I think the general consensus is that Mycelium eventually just gets too old and dies. It's like a person, you can keep feeding us, but we'll eventually die of old age. This isn't to say that yes, hydrating a cake will make it last longer. As for inserting nutrients, I suppose you could figure out a way?
But as with all things, you might as well try it with a spent cake and see what happens? Worst case, you still have nothing from nothing. Best, a few shrooms?
i wonder if it would be harder to perfect immortality for humans, or immortality for fungi.
-------------------- cheese-it!
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impeachme2
AmateurMycologist



Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 646
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-------------------- tradelist
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futurewolf42o
Le Jooses!



Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 470
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: impeachme2]
#7489756 - 10/05/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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thats in my bookmarks! ;D
-------------------- cheese-it!
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DigitalNomad
Neophyte


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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: impeachme2]
#7489758 - 10/05/07 08:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, there's a theory that the reason cells age is that every time a cell divides, some of the DNA in the chromosomes gets sheared off. Luckily, those ends are 'capped' by noncoding DNA, so it doesn't really matter. But eventually you start cutting into the coding DNA after X number of generations, which is why some scientists think that's what causes the cells to 'age.' So, if it's that on a genetic level, it really is just a matter of tweaking that. Cancer cells have figured it out, they're effectively immortal.
-------------------- Here's to the first step...
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futurewolf42o
Le Jooses!



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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: DigitalNomad]
#7489770 - 10/05/07 08:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DigitalNomad said: Well, there's a theory that the reason cells age is that every time a cell divides, some of the DNA in the chromosomes gets sheared off. Luckily, those ends are 'capped' by noncoding DNA, so it doesn't really matter. But eventually you start cutting into the coding DNA after X number of generations, which is why some scientists think that's what causes the cells to 'age.' So, if it's that on a genetic level, it really is just a matter of tweaking that. Cancer cells have figured it out, they're effectively immortal.
i've read that an enzyme that is produced in your body eats away the outer areas of your DNA, although im lazy and you'll have to google it yourself
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thegoat191
Buddha nature


Registered: 09/20/06
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yes, these non-encoding "capped" ends are called telomeres, which are STRs (short tandem repeats), and occur at the ends of gene sequences. Everytime a DNA replicates, some of these ends are sheared off due to DNA polymerase primers being removed. Telomerase is the enzyme that replaces these telomere ends, but most cells don't have very active telomerases, so after a certain number of replicative cycles, the genes begin to get chewed away, and the DNA becomes unstable, thus triggering expression of programmed cell-death (apoptosis) genes that prevent further replications. Cancer, as nomad mentioned, have more active telomerases, so they can continue replacing those chewed off STRs that flank the replicated sequences, and thus never trigger apoptosis, living on indefinately. I guess it would be possible to make transgenic mutants of fungi, and any organism for that matter, that would have up-regulated telomerase activity and thus the cells would never die. But, until that happens, pre-programmed cell death will occur due to this process, and sadly, your mycellial cells will die.
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KevsaNewb
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Registered: 08/14/07
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
#7491524 - 10/06/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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heh, imagine a giant immortal shroom....now picture a temple built around it...then add post-2012 hippies...
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buggas
Stranger


Registered: 09/27/07
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: KevsaNewb]
#7494103 - 10/07/07 11:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Interesting to see the direction this post took after a couple of days.
It makes sense that the fungi would die eventually. Most living things do, except for cancer i guess (which i never knew, or thought about for that matter).
The clone idea is a good one; however, i wonder if you were to eventually make a clone of that clone, would you end up with "retarded" shrooms, and how many clone generations would that take?
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resptodd
I reject yourreality andsubstitute myown



Registered: 10/16/07
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Loc: Michigan
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: buggas]
#7574543 - 10/29/07 09:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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what about dunking in a Hpoo tea?
-------------------- Damn! I'm having fun! Just keep the GD monkeys away.
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Nibin
Getting there



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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: resptodd]
#7575484 - 10/30/07 05:53 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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We are designed with a finite lifecycle. Telomeres exit for a reason. The longer we live our DNA mutates more and more, and the chances that our offspring will inherit these mutations increases, so nature has programmed us to die so we don't produce defective offspring.
Older, "tired" mycelim, that has already fruited has completed it's mission (produce offpring) and so, it's biological mission is now to die. This happens with all kinds of organisms. Annual plants for example die off after producing seeds.
This is why, while you can produce lots of generations so clones off an agar plate (or G2G) wich contains myc that hasn't fruited it isn't really feasible to do so with older myc.
Remember that a clone doesn't reset it's clock, it has the same age as it parent was at the moment of cloning. Anyone remember Dolly the Sheep?
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: Nibin]
#7575493 - 10/30/07 06:00 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You could try dunking in water with marmite or yeast inbetween flushes to try and give back some nuetriants, but i would not think it would help the myc live much longer.
When myc fruits thats it known that sometimes soon it will die and it should produce shrooms to disperse spores to continue the growth.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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FellowGrower
Fungal Freedom Fighter



Registered: 05/25/07
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: veda_sticks]
#7575564 - 10/30/07 06:47 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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...lol I wish Myc had a fuckin Pulse or some shit! I swear I think my LC's keep Dyin!? Nothing worse than knocking shit up with dead myc. ... thats when you stop "Growing Shrooms", and start "Studying Bacteria" lol.
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Slimz
.-~*´`*·~-experience-~*´`*·~-.




Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,588
Loc: Maryland
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: FellowGrower]
#7575574 - 10/30/07 06:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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how long will a LC generaly live?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: Slimz]
#7575581 - 10/30/07 07:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Y'all are missing the point with nutrient dunks. It won't work. Mushrooms don't grow hydroponically, so it doesn't matter what kind of liquid you add. Mycelium eats its food. That's why the substrate shrinks over time. Adding liquid 'nutes' is for plants. You'd have to add solid food for mycelium, and that's pretty hard because the dormant contaminant spores that are on the substrate would take over the new food quicker than the mushroom mycelium. RR
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veda_sticks
Cultivator




Registered: 07/29/07
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: RogerRabbit]
#7575604 - 10/30/07 07:19 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thats a good point RR, i never new myc only gets nutrients from the substrate and cant absorb it from water.
-------------------- PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666 Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek
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orchidfanatic
retiree




Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 832
Loc: where the wild things are
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Re: Keeping the Mycelium Alive [Re: veda_sticks]
#7575654 - 10/30/07 08:01 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know the cake gets old but someone should try to spawn a spent cake to new substrate and see if it recolonizes it .. this would grow new mycelium that isnt old from the cake. I would think that risk of contamination would be high doing this.. but its worth a try for an experiment ..
Edit: opps I just read RR's take on adding new substrate I guess it wouldn't work well
Edited by orchidfanatic (10/30/07 08:28 AM)
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