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Amberthefrog
Daemonic Frog of Kehjistan



Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 138
Loc: UK
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The Relevance of Mathematics
#7485540 - 10/04/07 04:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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In terms of proving ideas, concepts and anticipations, generally how relevant is maths? Personally i would say it's over rated. Everything can be broken down into numbers; with enough devotion, care and playing around on scrap paper, this can then be turned into equations representing relationships, that appear To be valid. But are they valid? This assumes several things; firstly that the observable properties of an incidence only lead to one conclusion. Sounds crazy, multiple relationships between two or more identical features in identical circumstances? Why can't things equal things they don't?
Because of reason 2, logic. Logic is a bit boring to me, a lot of it is just language structure that limits cool and creative things. Like penguins that have three tails and two tails. THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES! Why should our logic work? Things that make sense often don't. (oh and did i mention that paradoxes are nasty little things too!) In fact, from my fairly limited experience in scientific study it seems to me that the only branch of Fiziks that 'works' (and i say that with a nice gulp of scepticism) is quantum physics. QP doesn't really make sense which is why its so fun. It addresses a model NOT directly comparable to our own macro world, a model therefore that is not as clouded with silly assumptions. It works (so far anyway). I would pursue it further as i love reading about QP but unfortunately my fairly limited knowledge of calculus means all those dandy principles, backed up by lots of integral infested proofs is a bit beyond me unless i really FOCUS.
People, from all walks, tend to seem to think maths is an ultimate. "La lingua pura" Is it? REALLY? Does everything have to have expressible relationships understandable by our limited minds? I'm sceptical of this. People tend to love maths because it is never wrong, to someone with fairly decent training in the lingo it is not thathard to consider the validity of a mathematical assumption. The problem here is that maths hides behind those evil little men called axioms. It is a system, a model by which relationships can be considered and expressed. But only with regards to these nasty little axioms. Without these of course, maths would suffer from some severe fail so they do have SOME purpose. But still, is it not slightly boring not being able to equate 3 to 7? 3 to 7.
Context. Context is fun, at least it can be, other times it can be boring. It basically depends on whether i am posing an idea or criticising one Funny. Either way the context of maths can get a little silly. We assume that by stuffing any trend we observe into our hideous mathematical 'logic' we can a) create an expression, theory equation etc. (we normally can) and b) that said item will have any real meaning. You can plant a crop of French beans, alter the nitrite concentration in the soil to various different levels and observe the affects on the French beans. You can then form a relationship between the results and if you are a biologist with time on your hands figure out the mechanism behind this. You can do this till the cows come home and our society, common sense, reason and logic will all tell you that what you deduce is correct. At the end of the day you are still turning French beans into numbers.
Many people puzzle over things such as the principle of uncertainty and objective collapses in observation versus reality. This is a 100ish year old set of principles concerning the logic behind something very small that previous assumptions of (silly Newton), were deemed as lies. Is it not possible that those evil little axioms are lying to me about the French beans and their deamonic nitrite consumption? 
LOVE ALL.
-------------------- "All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses. " ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
Edited by Amberthefrog (10/04/07 04:26 PM)
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 1,480
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: Amberthefrog]
#7485708 - 10/04/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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math is just another language created by our puny minds in attempt to explain reality. sure it is a good tool but only that.
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: onlynow]
#7485782 - 10/04/07 05:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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numbers are a subset of words you can attempt to wrap up the things in the universe with words and numbers but the attempt is never enough. but we really have to try. not trying is lazy
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: redgreenvines]
#7485861 - 10/04/07 06:03 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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not trying is lazy
Or wisdom.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 10 days
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: Icelander]
#7485875 - 10/04/07 06:07 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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There's a difference between wisdom and apathy.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 1,480
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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so it is apathetic to not try and wrap the universe in words and numbers?
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 10 days
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: onlynow]
#7485910 - 10/04/07 06:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nah. You are right. I was really considering something I read in a different thread when I typed that. In this case, I'd say not trying to do so would be wisdom. I apologize for my goofiness.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 1,480
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Strive to be more than a codified manifestation of a generalized technological consciousness
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onlynow
transformativeinformativeenergy



Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 1,480
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: onlynow]
#7485938 - 10/04/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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me so glad me not banned anymore methinks
me goes back to me primitive ways
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: Amberthefrog]
#7486151 - 10/04/07 07:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amberthefrog said:People, from all walks, tend to seem to think maths is an ultimate.
I dont think thats true at all. I have never meet anybody who thinks that. Maybe un-educated people do, because they are baffled by math and dont understand it....
Mainstream mathematicians and scientists certainly dont believe that. They know that math is an invented language that is made by man. You can invent any kind of math you want. Just like you can invent any type of spoken language you want. But of course some types of invented math is more useful then others (just like language).
A key difference between spoken language and mathematics is that math is able to make predictions within the bounds of its margin of error. Spoken word and mathematics are just two different languages we use to describe and predict the nature of the universe and the human experience. They each have there own different uses and depending on what you want to do, you can use either or both.
Ill say again, people who use math daily (myself included) do not think math is an ultimate and do not think math is never wrong. Occasionally I will get a freshmen calculus student who says something along the lines of "Newton discovered calculus". Of course that makes me cringe, and I have to decide if its appropriate to school him/her that Newton did not discover calculus, he invented it.
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Amberthefrog
Daemonic Frog of Kehjistan



Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 138
Loc: UK
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Re: The Relevance of Mathematics [Re: DieCommie]
#7487511 - 10/05/07 06:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fair enough, id didn’t really mean that maths is an ultimate truth in itself, rather anything conveyed by it is (which i think you realised anyway). By people from all walks, i don't mean all people from all walks. I have spoken to mathematicians, physicists and philosophers (and like you mention people who don't understand it) whom have all though that if something can be shown mathematically, proved...it will normally be true. I know there are well documented exceptions in maths where you can prove things that contradict the basic axioms, that’s not really what i'm referring to though. My general point, which may appear rather obvious to some, is that i question the relevance of turning everything into maths (and for that matter more conventional languages!). Just let it flow and be happy.
Peace.
-------------------- "All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses. " ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
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