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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers
    #7480953 - 10/03/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

This is a topic that has sparked a huge debate, but what really works?
A pressure cooker works great but at the same time many either dont no how to work one or cannot afford one.Over the years I have used the boiling the jars method and has worked just fine for me, but is there a method to this madness?(Yes!)...
First off you must wrap your jars in foil very good.Then you place your jars in cool water only about half way up to the jar.Put on the lid and crank the heat, make shure when it comes to a boil that it is a gentle rolling boil and cook jars for about 30mins.Turn off the heat and let the jars cool inside of the pot with the lid on still.Take out the jars and let cool for about 4 hours or so then you can move on to the next step.Can your jars funk out on you(YES!)But this can happen even when using a pressure cooker.
(This is only my opinion)but it does work just fine.
NOTE:make shure your kitchen is clean...
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Nature is are biggest drug dealer so lets arrest God




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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7480975 - 10/03/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

There is no debate, the only way to sterilize is to PC, boiling will only get you to about 212 degrees, not enough to kill many bacterial endospores, 15 psi will get you to 250 degree, a minimum to sterilize.

Everyone who attempts to find a shortcut will find green meanines at every turn!

It is a 4-6 week process, why do it half assed at the beginning to save 2 hours?


--------------------
www.groworganic.com
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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7480983 - 10/03/07 12:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

A pressure cooker allows water to boil at a higher temperature giving a more effective sterilising process.

Most boiling teks recomend 90 minute steam sterilising. For PC 60 minutes.

For the BRF/Verm method steaming can be successfull.

But when using grains steam sterilising cant reach the temperatures needed to kill of contams contained in grains.

Working a pressure cooker is just as easy as using a pot. Turn heat up high, then when weight lets steam escape turn down till the weight just rocks, letting out very little steam.


--------------------

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Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7480995 - 10/03/07 12:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

You are way off dude, Im sorry but I have used the boiling method for years it is far from half ass out of 12 jars at the least I have lost maybe two jars at the most and only sometimes,seeing that this DOES work I will say to others if done right it works just fine.
Even when you pressure cook you can lose jars also.
Dont get caught up in the hype people if it works then it works(keep on doing it).


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481005 - 10/03/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Trial and Error People Trial And Error...


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481021 - 10/03/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fair enough, but for every success anecdote there are several dozen failure anecdotes, as far as I can tell.

The truth is, use any tek you can get away with, judge for yourself if contamination is a problem.

You say you might lose 10-15% of your jars max, which is tolerable to you, especially if you are only losing a jar or two each month, but I can tell you that my foaf claims ZERO contams after perhaps 1000s of PCd grain jars...again, this is only anecdotal.

But at a 10-15% contam rate, he might have lost several hundred jars to contams, versus the virtually non-existent contam ratio when PCing properly prepared grains.


--------------------
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Get 350lbs shipped to your door for only $100!
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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7481043 - 10/03/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thats cool:cool:


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Invisiblemushbaby
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481075 - 10/03/07 01:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Pics Shroom man or I say you are full of shit.

You are only steam sterilizing for 1/2 hour hunh? Hmm. Prove it.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7481128 - 10/03/07 01:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
There is no debate, the only way to sterilize is to PC, boiling will only get you to about 212 degrees, not enough to kill many bacterial endospores, 15 psi will get you to 250 degree, a minimum to sterilize.

Everyone who attempts to find a shortcut will find green meanines at every turn!

It is a 4-6 week process, why do it half assed at the beginning to save 2 hours?




Green mold is killed by steam sterilization, so green meanies will be the fault of unsterile inoculation or poor FAE, not steam sterilizing, IIRC.


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: mushbaby]
    #7481131 - 10/03/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

LMAO!


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481139 - 10/03/07 01:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

LOOK! like I said before, all comments are welcome good or bad!Its my Opinion from trial and error,it works for me but maybe not for another, either way you take it, thats fine with me.;)


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Invisiblemushbaby
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481166 - 10/03/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well here's the thing, you registered two days ago.  Doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about, I know. 

But if you think you can come on here and post info that goes against proven methods and not get called  on it then you haven't been here long enough.  That's the Shroomery for you.  It's tricky enough learning how to do this without bad advice.  Alot of new people don't know to read how long someone's been on here before following their advice.

The saying around here is "Pics or it didn't happen."  Period.

And btw, welcome to the shroomery.  :plur:


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: mushbaby]
    #7481206 - 10/03/07 02:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Look I have been around for awhile I AM NOT NEW TO SHROOMERY.
I have read many teks posted on this site even the new ones.
I am not going agianst anything as far as proven or theory.
Im just posting what has worked for me and countless others that have used the old school way of growing for YEARS!far before the pressure cooker method or spore syringes.
I f you dont like this method or think it will not work for you,hey thats fine dont do it!


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481253 - 10/03/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

   


Edited by Robo (08/12/15 11:17 PM)


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Robo]
    #7481285 - 10/03/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I AGREE pressure cooker is far better but dont rule out the boiling method either when it has worked well for me also,all I am saying is that some people cannot either use one right or cannot afford one, dont worry about it there is another method thats all i am really trying to say in all this.
What method do you use Shr00m Man? honestly a pressure cooker.
But before we used pressure cookers we had the cooking pot...:)


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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481314 - 10/03/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

boiling works fine.

not many people seem to realize their work space is more infested with mold spores than others. the less mold goes into the jar the better. if a work space is generally light on mold spores, clean and sterile then boiling has to kill off less shit and that's it.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481329 - 10/03/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

But if you think you can come on here and post info that goes against proven methods and not get called on it then you haven't been here long enough. That's the Shroomery for you. It's tricky enough learning how to do this without bad advice.




You better watch yourself, because it's YOU who is wrong. Brown rice flour does not harbor bacterial endospores, so boiling for an hour to two hours is more than sufficient to achieve success. Grains need to be pressure cooked, but no such requirement exists with brf. I've made hundreds, if not thousands of brf cakes and the only one that contaminated was where I needed a picture of green mold for the video, so I scraped the syringe across the carpet before inoculation.

Voice your opinions and experiences people, but keep it nice. The facts are clear. If you boil a brf cake for two hours and it contaminates, it's because you did something else wrong. Water boils at 212F, and molds are killed off at 140F. That's a fact.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #7481336 - 10/03/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

And let me add and I am sorry for not putting this down but...
When you boil, 4oz. jars are the prime in this method because it is far more forgiving then the 1/2ers and the mycellum takes over the jars alot quicker before(in most cases)then other types of microbes can destroy your project.


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7481382 - 10/03/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Im not saying at all that I know it all ok,BUT!boiling does work,as far as grains go I do agree they must be pressure cooked back when shroomery came out in many teks boiling was the way at that time and only I would say three or four teks used the pressure cooker.
In 1977(could of been earler I forget)High Times first shroom kits to the public were offered by HOMESTEAD in that there directions for home shroom making was boil boil boil!as time went on boiling was replaced by the pressure cooker because the only way at that time to be even close to that was for one to by a autoclave which was way out of peoples budgets, for those who did boil did that mean 0% success rate? NO they did grow so my point being were there is a will theres a way:cool:


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OfflineTBags
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7481392 - 10/03/07 03:00 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

But if you think you can come on here and post info that goes against proven methods and not get called on it then you haven't been here long enough. That's the Shroomery for you. It's tricky enough learning how to do this without bad advice.




You better watch yourself, because it's YOU who is wrong. Brown rice flour does not harbor bacterial endospores, so boiling for an hour to two hours is more than sufficient to achieve success. Grains need to be pressure cooked, but no such requirement exists with brf. I've made hundreds, if not thousands of brf cakes and the only one that contaminated was where I needed a picture of green mold for the video, so I scraped the syringe across the carpet before inoculation.

Voice your opinions and experiences people, but keep it nice. The facts are clear. If you boil a brf cake for two hours and it contaminates, it's because you did something else wrong. Water boils at 212F, and molds are killed off at 140F. That's a fact.
RR





...i love RR


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: TBags]
    #7481409 - 10/03/07 03:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

right on!


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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7481494 - 10/03/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

But if you think you can come on here and post info that goes against proven methods and not get called on it then you haven't been here long enough. That's the Shroomery for you. It's tricky enough learning how to do this without bad advice.




You better watch yourself, because it's YOU who is wrong. Brown rice flour does not harbor bacterial endospores, so boiling for an hour to two hours is more than sufficient to achieve success. Grains need to be pressure cooked, but no such requirement exists with brf. I've made hundreds, if not thousands of brf cakes and the only one that contaminated was where I needed a picture of green mold for the video, so I scraped the syringe across the carpet before inoculation.

Voice your opinions and experiences people, but keep it nice. The facts are clear. If you boil a brf cake for two hours and it contaminates, it's because you did something else wrong. Water boils at 212F, and molds are killed off at 140F. That's a fact.
RR




RogerRabbit has spoken and so it will be.
pwnage.


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference.-Bill Hicks-

by the way, everything i write is for entertainment purposes and is purely fictional. do not construe these written words with the author having any knowledge of actual persons, places, events, or actions.


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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: skattman1982]
    #7481558 - 10/03/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

He said he did it for just 30 mins. I still say that's wrong.

RR you even said 90 mins to 2 hrs.


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Offlinerodfarva
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7482182 - 10/03/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Shr00m_Man said:
right on!




there is two ways to PWN the shroomery.

1.) devote a large portion of your life to shroom reasearch and acedemics, becoming a mycologist, then devote more time than normal people post in the forums -or-

2.) grow some crappy cubenses mushrooms and take pictures of them on your girlfriends naked tits.

-=-=
folow one of those steps and i will listen to whatever you have to say bud :wink:


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: rodfarva]
    #7482414 - 10/03/07 07:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

   


Edited by Robo (08/12/15 11:18 PM)


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Offlinerodfarva
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Robo]
    #7482899 - 10/03/07 09:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

No seriously.. look ---> thread


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OfflineThe_Shr00m_Man
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: rodfarva]
    #7483065 - 10/03/07 10:32 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

LMAO!
And I would just like to add that for me I go for about 30mins BUT!!!
2 hours even is fine Im shure.
Plus tits and shrooms yep you cant go wrong there :laugh:


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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7484978 - 10/04/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well Roger, you are the man, there is no doubt, but what about this:

Green mold spores are ubiquitous, and therefore, although BRF may not contain endospores proper, certainly the likelihood of some green spores landing on your BRF cakes as you prepare them would seem inevitable.

That is interesting what you said about mold dying at 140.

How do you explain BRF cakes that were fruited several times only to succumb to green mold after a month or so in the fruiting chamber?


--------------------
www.groworganic.com
Get 350lbs shipped to your door for only $100!
www.mycosupply.com
Online Organic Rye Berries
www.hydroponics.net/i/200002
The Cyclestat 4P, a great repeat cycle timer made in the USA.


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Invisiblemycocurious
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Captain Cubensis]
    #7485397 - 10/04/07 03:22 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Captain Cubensis said:
How do you explain BRF cakes that were fruited several times only to succumb to green mold after a month or so in the fruiting chamber?




At that point the mycelium colony is weak and dying (senility) and is too weak to fight off the contaminate - which at this point is probably feeding *on* the aging colony itself.


--------------------
:justdontknow: Don't mistake my tone for a "matter-of-fact" attitude.  I'm just presenting what I believe to be correct, until I'm corrected...

- How Myco-Curious Prepares Coir & Compost Substrates
- How Myco-Curious Builds A Bulk Humidifier
- How Myco-Curious Builds An Automated Greenhouse
------------------------------------
figgusfiddus said:
Keep in mind that inoculating or whatever in front of a flow hood won't help your bad substrate, your bad inoculant, your bad sterile procedure, etc. etc. etc. It's not a +3 flowhood of magic, it's just a tool.


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OfflineMikeRamos9
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: mycocurious]
    #7485456 - 10/04/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

yea i boiled 12 cakes in a pot with a ceover on it cause i didnt have PC. after about a month i got about 6 left at 70%and the other 6 are gone to contams. i will be buying a PC, just didnt have cash at the time.


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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: MikeRamos9]
    #7485521 - 10/04/07 04:12 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I have done Fractional sterilization with 4oz brf jars. Before and it work fine.But, PCing is faster..


--------------------
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OfflineParadise Lost
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Brainiac]
    #7487025 - 10/05/07 12:29 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hi guys/gals,

I purchased RR's DVD, studied the brf Tek and followed it to the absolute letter, and have just birthed all 16 cakes without a single loss. Steam sterilization worked for me, and at the end of the day that is what's important.

From the short time that I have been visiting the Shroomery one of the things I realise is that not every grower has the same outcome in mind. Some people (myself included) just want to grow a few shrooms for personal use and don't need to expand into bulk, grain or poo Teks. My 16 cakes will supply me with more than enough goodness to last me a very long time.

I think what needs to be realized is we are all different, and have different outcomes from our cultivation in mind.

I have no intention of buying a PC, i.

Just my two cents.

Thanks.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Paradise Lost]
    #7487525 - 10/05/07 07:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If your contamination problem was mold, then it was introduced after you sterilized your jars. Water boils at 212F, and molds are killed above 135F. Rather than look at your sterilization method, I'd suggest you look at your sterile procedure later when you inoculated the jars. Good luck in the future.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleCaptain Cubensis
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7489587 - 10/05/07 07:11 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I always thought green mold worked from the inside out in a cake.

Otherwise, how does it penetrate the myc.

Also, if green mold started on the outside, and worked in, then you could easily cut off, or treat the part of the cake with mold, but it only prolongs the agony.


--------------------
www.groworganic.com
Get 350lbs shipped to your door for only $100!
www.mycosupply.com
Online Organic Rye Berries
www.hydroponics.net/i/200002
The Cyclestat 4P, a great repeat cycle timer made in the USA.


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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: The_Shr00m_Man]
    #7999725 - 02/09/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I work in HVAC I doubt that setting the jars in the boiling water is the right way to do it because something heated with steam will get hotter
than something heated with boiling water
BECAUSE water vapor can transfer a lot more heat than water liquid can
steam can transfer heat with out cooling down the way water dose to transfer heat it dose this by giving up some of it's latent heat of vaporization

to prove it try boiling some veges it tacks 15 to 20 minuets
steaming the same veges will tack 7 to 10 minuets


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Offlineasknoquestions
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: arainbow]
    #7999812 - 02/09/08 11:51 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

arainbow said:
I work in HVAC I doubt that setting the jars in the boiling water is the right way to do it because something heated with steam will get hotter
than something heated with boiling water
BECAUSE water vapor can transfer a lot more heat than water liquid can
steam can transfer heat with out cooling down the way water dose to transfer heat it dose this by giving up some of it's latent heat of vaporization

to prove it try boiling some veges it tacks 15 to 20 minuets
steaming the same veges will tack 7 to 10 minuets




Tack? What?


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InvisibleElementium
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: asknoquestions]
    #7999844 - 02/09/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

asknoquestions said:
Tack? What?




*takes

At least, I think that's what he means.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: Elementium]
    #8000279 - 02/09/08 02:00 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

It's fun to watch every new grower with zero experience come in and tell us what's wrong with techniques that have been proved successful hundreds of thousands of times.  Ya just gotta take it with a grain of salt. :shrug:
RR


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Offlinerodfarva
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8003310 - 02/10/08 12:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, but helping someone on their road to hapiness is a short cut to your own.


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: rodfarva]
    #8003539 - 02/10/08 02:44 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

rodfarva said:
Yes, but helping someone on their road to hapiness is a short cut to your own.





The road to happiness is steaming jars? Pass that spliff over here bro. :lol:


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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: arainbow]
    #8003582 - 02/10/08 03:06 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

arainbow said:
I work in HVAC I doubt that setting the jars in the boiling water is the right way to do it because something heated with steam will get hotter
than something heated with boiling water
BECAUSE water vapor can transfer a lot more heat than water liquid can
steam can transfer heat with out cooling down the way water dose to transfer heat it dose this by giving up some of it's latent heat of vaporization





I call bullshit. Try this experiment. Stick your hand into a pot of boiling water. Did it seem to cool down when it transferred the heat to your now blistered and burned hand? Now stick your hand over the pot of water where the steam is. A little cooler, isn't it?

The steam is definitely neccessary though because unless you're letting the boiling water go into your jars, the heat from that water won't penetrate the substrate.


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Offlineteaparty
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Re: Boiling Jars VS. Pressure Cookers [Re: FooMan]
    #8003908 - 02/10/08 08:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Out of my 5 or so grows, ive Steamed all but once. Every one of those times ive lost at least 2 jars (and 5 at the most). The one time i was able to borrow a PC i didnt lose 1.


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